It's a bit early for an April Fool's Day 2009 gag isn't it Bob? 
Regarding dilectric absorbtion, audioholics have 3 nice pages on the subject here: http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/dielectric-absorption-in-cables-debunked -OK, not perfect, but not bad at all. There are admittedly some other arguments against PVC -it's rotten for the environment (not that a lot of alternatives are much better) & there are some chemical reaction issues that can catch a badly made piece of wire out.
Life is getting far too short at this point...
Regarding dilectric absorbtion, audioholics have 3 nice pages on the subject here: http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/dielectric-absorption-in-cables-debunked -OK, not perfect, but not bad at all. There are admittedly some other arguments against PVC -it's rotten for the environment (not that a lot of alternatives are much better) & there are some chemical reaction issues that can catch a badly made piece of wire out.
Life is getting far too short at this point...
Okay, so if audiophiles swear they hear stuff and physics suggests it's impossible, what is the explanation for the disparity? Is it all mere gullibility or self-delusion in every case?
I hesitate to conclude that, given the number of times accepted audio wisdom has changed through the decades. (Not that I have any better explanation, I'm just puzzled.)
I hesitate to conclude that, given the number of times accepted audio wisdom has changed through the decades. (Not that I have any better explanation, I'm just puzzled.)
Possibly. The human mind is superb at finding patterns that don't exist; that's wired in by evolution. There's a great entertainment value in chasing ghosts, and that's much of what high end hifi is all about. The most profound thing anyone has ever told me in this field was Nelson Pass's comment that, "We're in the entertainment business. People have fun swapping components, listening, and discussing."
I've said it before and I'll say it again- spend ten minutes with a good conjurer and you'll never again take what you THINK you perceive as what really happened.
I notice the hifi magazines stopped doing blind A/B testing a while back. Is it cynical to conclude that the very expensive stuff could not live up? Surely some hi-end tweaks are truly better while others are obviously as silly as they are expensive. I'm curious why A/B testing didn't just solve the matter. Or did it?
P.S. I'm not sure it's always clear which ones are silly without the A/B testing, e.g. the 98-cent tweak might seem ridiculous at first.
P.S. I'm not sure it's always clear which ones are silly without the A/B testing, e.g. the 98-cent tweak might seem ridiculous at first.
Why is this in the full range driver section and not under electronics and parts?
Isn't it capacitance that stores energy in the dielectric and re-releases it?
These objective/subjective "discussions" inevitably end up devolving into snotty sniping attacks. Hasn't this subject been flogged to death? Even when evidence is put forth on possible causes of sonic differences (skin effect, dielectric capacitance, etc.) people in the objectivist camp say that it's not enough to be audible. When people can hear differences under blind testing, they say the results aren't statistically significant because only a very small number of listeners get that result. Objectivists will accept the data that most (if not all) can't hear a difference under blind testing, but will totally ignore things like listener fatigue, etc. because it doesn't fit their desired result.
As long as people are having fun, who cares?
Isn't it capacitance that stores energy in the dielectric and re-releases it?
These objective/subjective "discussions" inevitably end up devolving into snotty sniping attacks. Hasn't this subject been flogged to death? Even when evidence is put forth on possible causes of sonic differences (skin effect, dielectric capacitance, etc.) people in the objectivist camp say that it's not enough to be audible. When people can hear differences under blind testing, they say the results aren't statistically significant because only a very small number of listeners get that result. Objectivists will accept the data that most (if not all) can't hear a difference under blind testing, but will totally ignore things like listener fatigue, etc. because it doesn't fit their desired result.
As long as people are having fun, who cares?
BHD said:
Because the FR guys don't have other things like XO's to worry about so they go looking for something, anything.
Oui.
I do. I can't believe that wire discussions go to such lengths. I would venture a guess that everyone discussing wires has more that just the wires that can be done to improve the overall quality. I put wires way down the list. Way down.
Oops, they just slipped off the page...
No, I think Bob started it with tongue more or less firmly in cheek & it's an offshoot from the speaker wire thread with specific reference to FR drivers.
Just to point out, those things you mention aren't really evidence per se. They're certain aspects of electrical behaviour, which some people theorise may explain the differences they claim to hear between wires with very similar basic RLC specifications. (obviously, if two wires are wildly dissimilar in RLC terms, then first port of call is to consider the effects of these basic features before wombling off into other areas). One would think that everyone had better things to be doing of course, in both camps. For pity's sake, it's wire. Not exactly the most thrilling subject in the world.
Amen.
Re: Flogged to "little death"?
there's a place on West Hollywood blvd where you can get nicely flogged with either teflon or foamed polyethylene for $20
the enameled insulators do tend to leave a few scars ...
seriously, will we never get tired of this "what's the best / your favorite / but I think you're wrong, my friend" nonsense?
badman said:
there's a place on West Hollywood blvd where you can get nicely flogged with either teflon or foamed polyethylene for $20
the enameled insulators do tend to leave a few scars ...
seriously, will we never get tired of this "what's the best / your favorite / but I think you're wrong, my friend" nonsense?
Extremely 'cynical' is the only way to read any publication that relies on advertising associated with its main focus, i.e. audio components, etc. in an audio review mag, etc., so this limits the 'gentle reader' to Consumer Reports or similar and even these can only be taken with a 'grain of salt'. Thankfully, many dedicated forums such as this one has been around long enough now to garner enough real world data/opinions to allow a reasonably well informed buying choice, i.e. separate the 'wheat from the chaff', though as always Caveat Emptor applies.
GM
GM
Hi Dave, absolutely -- I meant to say that the 98-cent tweak does work, but to a lay person like me, it's not possible to know that beforehand. I can hear the difference, but then again, some people say they "hear" cable elevators and I'd love to know what they are (or think they are) hearing, as opposed to the supposed physics of the matter.
Incidentally, I'm sure the topic has been beated to death, but for those of us just tuning in, it's brand new. You folks have been at this for 20 years vs. just a year or two for us newbs.
Incidentally, I'm sure the topic has been beated to death, but for those of us just tuning in, it's brand new.
You folks have been at this for 20 years vs. just a year or two for us newbs.
My experience is that with big area solid conductors there is no insulation-probs worth mentioning. Seems like power seeks out in insulation if stressed through a tiny conductor, or at least that was the best suggestion we came up with on our norwegian forum.
(including Duelund)
I avoid teflon; never heard a teflon-insulated cable with a clean airy top.
(including Duelund)
I avoid teflon; never heard a teflon-insulated cable with a clean airy top.
I find wrapping my nordost freys in gossimer strands of silk woven by virgins really brings out the midrange.
Seriously though I do own nordost cables, the cheapest ones. Super flatline or something... Why splash out for them you ask?
Well I got them for dirty cheap (I'm in a related industry so I got the real price), and they look really cool. There I said it. They're fun to look at!
Vain I know...
Seriously though I do own nordost cables, the cheapest ones. Super flatline or something... Why splash out for them you ask?
Well I got them for dirty cheap (I'm in a related industry so I got the real price), and they look really cool. There I said it. They're fun to look at!
Vain I know...
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