Hello,
I have always been a tinker-er and am thrilled about building a pair of floor standing speakers. I used to build custom enclosures for car audio and have access to a full woodshop.
After several days of searching I think I am going to use the Fostex FE166E drivers. They seem to be the right size, price, and quality I'm looking for. Building an enclosure "right" would be the key. Does anyone have any idea's on where I can look for some plans?
So far I came up with these: This , which seems to be untested.
The Frugal Horn Project level 0 seems to be simple enough, a bit complex inside but not bad!
I have a Onkyo SR606 receiver and a 10x 13 room, if that helps. I am also looking to get that big lifelike sound my Klipsch Quintet II's can't seem to produce (unless as 75% volume) I also am ordering a Elemental Designs A2 - 300 subwoofer so i'm not worried about the real low bass.
Thanks in advance, much much appriciated!
I have always been a tinker-er and am thrilled about building a pair of floor standing speakers. I used to build custom enclosures for car audio and have access to a full woodshop.
After several days of searching I think I am going to use the Fostex FE166E drivers. They seem to be the right size, price, and quality I'm looking for. Building an enclosure "right" would be the key. Does anyone have any idea's on where I can look for some plans?
So far I came up with these: This , which seems to be untested.
The Frugal Horn Project level 0 seems to be simple enough, a bit complex inside but not bad!
I have a Onkyo SR606 receiver and a 10x 13 room, if that helps. I am also looking to get that big lifelike sound my Klipsch Quintet II's can't seem to produce (unless as 75% volume) I also am ordering a Elemental Designs A2 - 300 subwoofer so i'm not worried about the real low bass.
Thanks in advance, much much appriciated!
A couple of pointers. Firstly, the Frugel-horn is designed for the FE126E, not the FE166E, which is far too large for it.
The 166, frankly, is a pain to get working right. You could take a look at the Frugel-horn pages -Ron's A126, Bob's Daleks, or the Hiro double-horn all do very well & don't require multiple drivers. WRT Onur's design, I'm not entirely certain what he was trying to achieve with it -IMHO, that is not the sort of cabinet that the 166 will thank you for putting it in.
If you would prefer a simpler design, the FE167E is a little more versatile & can be used in a wider variety of enclosures.
The 166, frankly, is a pain to get working right. You could take a look at the Frugel-horn pages -Ron's A126, Bob's Daleks, or the Hiro double-horn all do very well & don't require multiple drivers. WRT Onur's design, I'm not entirely certain what he was trying to achieve with it -IMHO, that is not the sort of cabinet that the 166 will thank you for putting it in.
If you would prefer a simpler design, the FE167E is a little more versatile & can be used in a wider variety of enclosures.
This is the one you want http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/download/Austin-A166Mk2-plans.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96050
http://www.audiophiletalk.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1201567978
http://www.decware.com/newsite/DFR6.htm
The Decware modded driver was used in Karl's build and he really likes them.. Of course there are an exceptional amount of bias's to wade through the forums these days, so take that into consideration when choosing drivers etc....
Dave
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96050
http://www.audiophiletalk.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1201567978
http://www.decware.com/newsite/DFR6.htm
The Decware modded driver was used in Karl's build and he really likes them.. Of course there are an exceptional amount of bias's to wade through the forums these days, so take that into consideration when choosing drivers etc....
Dave
adamzx3 said:
That receiver has an aweful lot of features for not much money, and a whole lot of power. You may well find that any of the Fostex drivers -- even stock -- ruthlessly expose its shortcomings.
Your room is also quite small. The kind of box needed for an FE166e is likely not going to work well in this room.
For this room, and if you intend on keeping the Onkyo for awhile, you might get better synergy with CSS FR125SR.
dave
I have a pair of those in an 11.3 x 13.6 room; (what started as a clone of this room: http://decware.com/paper36.htm -- well, he moved, and the link/info's not as complete as it was).DaveCan said:This is the one you want http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/download/Austin-A166Mk2-plans.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96050
http://www.audiophiletalk.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1201567978
http://www.decware.com/newsite/DFR6.htm
The Decware modded driver was used in Karl's build and he really likes them.. Of course there are an exceptional amount of bias's to wade through the forums these days, so take that into consideration when choosing drivers etc....
Dave
Anyway, they work well in there, room treatment helped (a lot), but you can get into overwhelming spls pretty easy.
And that's with a small tube amp.
The alcove helps, or a door you can open to rest of the house.
Bass is flat to 40 Hz corner loaded, I recommend building subs into the rear deflectors for below that.
Robert
Thanks for the info guys!
After browsing articles and posts all day, I think I have narrowed down to two enclosures, the MJ King box and Brines FT-1600 MkII. And using the FE167E instead.
I was wondering how complex the inside of the FT-1600 MkII is? I cant find much besides it using rockboard on the inside.
I measured my room and it is 11x17.5, will this make the drivers in-efficient or just overpowered?
After browsing articles and posts all day, I think I have narrowed down to two enclosures, the MJ King box and Brines FT-1600 MkII. And using the FE167E instead.
I was wondering how complex the inside of the FT-1600 MkII is? I cant find much besides it using rockboard on the inside.
I measured my room and it is 11x17.5, will this make the drivers in-efficient or just overpowered?
Hmmm, I plan on upgrading it in near future...is it that bad? I have never listened to speaker any better than the Klipsch floorstanding at bestbuy (vf-35?) and if they sounded even that good I would be tickeled. I was hoping at lower power the SR606 would be decent.
What kind of music do you listen to?
I had a FT-1600 MkII, also a MLTL for the FE206E, and a Decware HDT. They all have strong & weak points.
I find the Transmission Lines are nice, but more "polite," less dynamic than the Back Loaded Horns (Austin 166, etc).
Although I'm currently breaking in a FE138ESR on a kludge baffle on the HDTs.
About a hundred hours on it, totaly wrong driver for the box, but it sounds a lot nicer than the FE206...
Robert
I had a FT-1600 MkII, also a MLTL for the FE206E, and a Decware HDT. They all have strong & weak points.
I find the Transmission Lines are nice, but more "polite," less dynamic than the Back Loaded Horns (Austin 166, etc).
Although I'm currently breaking in a FE138ESR on a kludge baffle on the HDTs.
About a hundred hours on it, totaly wrong driver for the box, but it sounds a lot nicer than the FE206...
Robert
Hi guys,
I was lucky enough to hear the FT-1600 MkII with the FE167e (w/phase plugs) and I liked them very much. (My room is about 11x11 and I have the larger Brines 8" model (LT-2000's) which is overkill for that space.)
I love the MLTL's very clear "hear every note" quality in the bass. No boominess -- upright bass sounds exactly the way it should. Jazz, female vocal, acoustic and chamber music sound excellent to me. I drive mine with a singe inexpensive watt of tube power (and it's plenty, even with BSC).
P.S. OT but Robert, I envy you on the FE138ES-R's -- have you chosen a cab?
I was lucky enough to hear the FT-1600 MkII with the FE167e (w/phase plugs) and I liked them very much. (My room is about 11x11 and I have the larger Brines 8" model (LT-2000's) which is overkill for that space.)
I love the MLTL's very clear "hear every note" quality in the bass. No boominess -- upright bass sounds exactly the way it should. Jazz, female vocal, acoustic and chamber music sound excellent to me. I drive mine with a singe inexpensive watt of tube power (and it's plenty, even with BSC).
P.S. OT but Robert, I envy you on the FE138ES-R's -- have you chosen a cab?
I made the plunge and went with the FT-1600 MkII, the plans look great and I cant wait to start building. These ones are going to my parents, but i'm wondering when I build myself a pair, will the Onkyo TX-SR806 (THX Ultra2 Plus certified) sound a lot better to my average ears than better than my current SR606 ? If so, I might be able to return mine in the next 10 days.
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-SR806&class=Receiver&p=s
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-SR806&class=Receiver&p=s
adamzx3 said:
That's going in the wrong direction power wiaw... aomwrging like tthis is going to sound better
http://www.audio-magus.com/product_p/krt20u.htm
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
rjbond3rd,
"have you chosen a cab?"
Short answer: no.
I ask a about Frequency response; if anyone had any graphs, anything other than "this is great" on the FE138ES-R thread, but haven't heard back.
It's been a few days; maybe no one has measured, or wants to.
Probably the Nessie looking design that came with it; the one Kloss built. Hearing the Festrex/Nessies @ RMAF is what inspired buying these in the first place. If one can get 90% of that for 10% of the $...
It just seems they would have bad harmonic issues @ certian places due to the resonate pipe design...
I really like the 108 Swans, might even try that again, except someone said the Nessies were smoother.
The only Nessies I've ever heard were the smoothest, nicest playing full-range I've ever heard...
Maybe the design Scottmoose/Planet 10 posted a sketch of in the FE138ES-R thread; there's just not much info there (no graph, no MathCad sim...) Don't know how low they go; I'd like to try to build something simple, to use w/o subs if I could.
If not, (needs a sub) then maybe no "cab," and horn load them.
I tried just holding a 250 Hz LeCleach in front of one of them, sounds real nice.
Should work well as a three-way, lower efficiency FLH system.
Probably one of the three above, maybe try different & compare...
Robert
"have you chosen a cab?"
Short answer: no.
I ask a about Frequency response; if anyone had any graphs, anything other than "this is great" on the FE138ES-R thread, but haven't heard back.
It's been a few days; maybe no one has measured, or wants to.
Probably the Nessie looking design that came with it; the one Kloss built. Hearing the Festrex/Nessies @ RMAF is what inspired buying these in the first place. If one can get 90% of that for 10% of the $...
It just seems they would have bad harmonic issues @ certian places due to the resonate pipe design...
I really like the 108 Swans, might even try that again, except someone said the Nessies were smoother.
The only Nessies I've ever heard were the smoothest, nicest playing full-range I've ever heard...
Maybe the design Scottmoose/Planet 10 posted a sketch of in the FE138ES-R thread; there's just not much info there (no graph, no MathCad sim...) Don't know how low they go; I'd like to try to build something simple, to use w/o subs if I could.
If not, (needs a sub) then maybe no "cab," and horn load them.
I tried just holding a 250 Hz LeCleach in front of one of them, sounds real nice.
Should work well as a three-way, lower efficiency FLH system.
Probably one of the three above, maybe try different & compare...
Robert
The sonic influence of the amplifier is highly debatable - at the very least.
I personally think your Onkyo will work just fine.
That is, of course, if the Onkyo receiver can bypass its signal processing for stereo mode.
If I am not mistaking, Bob Brines wrote somewhere that he is using a regular Hifi receiver as an amp and just has a tube amp for demonstration purposes, because "audiophiles" would discredit using a receiver.
I personally think your Onkyo will work just fine.
That is, of course, if the Onkyo receiver can bypass its signal processing for stereo mode.
If I am not mistaking, Bob Brines wrote somewhere that he is using a regular Hifi receiver as an amp and just has a tube amp for demonstration purposes, because "audiophiles" would discredit using a receiver.
I can assure you the Onkyo would not 'work just fine' with a low Q driver, unless you stick a load of correction on it. It'll do OK on the 167, but no more than that. The sonic influence of an amplifier is not highly debatable -what is highly debateable are the prices some of the supposed high-end brigade charge.
The box I did for the 138 is good for about 60Hz, but I've now stopped posting simulated graphs for them as people recently have been tending to take them at face value without knowing much about the design itself, with the result that I get a major headache.
The box I did for the 138 is good for about 60Hz, but I've now stopped posting simulated graphs for them as people recently have been tending to take them at face value without knowing much about the design itself, with the result that I get a major headache.
schumpe said:
I used to think amps made only subtle differences. After hearing some different amps on single full range speakers, I changed my mind. Worst combo so far was a RS Accurian amp on a pair of Half Changs w/ FE206e drivers--totally unlistenable. Some amps produced a bit of sibilance on those speakers. The Accurian didn't just produce sibilance, it made grating hash!
Cheers, Jim
It's not rocket-science. To take but one example, an amplifier with a low output impedance can do nothing to help correct for the high degree of self-damping posessed by a low Q driver, and that can and does affect the basic frequency response. An amplifier with a higher output impedance will make a better natural match to such units, in a similar way to if you placed a resistor in series with the driver, or used a higher Q unit. I assume, Schumpe, you agree that the placing of a series resistor, or a baffle-step circuit will affect the FR? Same thing here.
Upper FR graph: simulated anechoic response of Martin King's Project 2 MLTQWT / mass-loaded horn assuming an amplifier with a vanishingly low output impedance.
Lower FR graph: same speaker, same situation, with a 4ohm resistor in series with the driver, ~mimicing what will happen with a amplifer possessing a much higher output impedance (the amp won't suffer the sensitivity loss though).
Response of the speaker look the same to you? No? Doesn't to me either.
There are hundreds of other examples. Think on many valve amps with duff output transformers that reach saturation in the LF (the cause of what many people consider to be the 'valve sound'). And so on. All amplifiers do not sound the same.
Upper FR graph: simulated anechoic response of Martin King's Project 2 MLTQWT / mass-loaded horn assuming an amplifier with a vanishingly low output impedance.
Lower FR graph: same speaker, same situation, with a 4ohm resistor in series with the driver, ~mimicing what will happen with a amplifer possessing a much higher output impedance (the amp won't suffer the sensitivity loss though).
Response of the speaker look the same to you? No? Doesn't to me either.
There are hundreds of other examples. Think on many valve amps with duff output transformers that reach saturation in the LF (the cause of what many people consider to be the 'valve sound'). And so on. All amplifiers do not sound the same.
Attachments
Scott,
Those plots are very misleading, they are only for a speaker radiating into 2 pi free space and do not include any baffle step response or floor reinforcement. Even a speaker up against a wall will still exhibit some baffle step behavior at lower frequencies. Do you really want people to draw any conclusions from those plots? You are really not helping people understand the options and trade-offs by posting these types of plots and your stated conclusions.
The advantage of a high damping factor SS amp is that you determine the series resistance to be applied and get the speaker and amp optimized, power is typically not an issue. This combination has a lot of flexibility and adjustability. The disadvantage is that this approach does not fit the purist's code and often gets ridiculed on the forums.
The disadvantage of the low damping factor tube amp is that the resistor in series with the speaker is determined inside the amp design and the power available tends to be low enough that adding more resistance may not result in an improvement. If the resistance in the amp design is too much for the speaker design, the bass will boom and you are stuck.
I do not agree with your conclusion that the Onkyo will automatically not work well, I believe the reciever in question might work just fine if the appropriate circuit is inserted into the positive leg of the speaker.
Those plots are very misleading, they are only for a speaker radiating into 2 pi free space and do not include any baffle step response or floor reinforcement. Even a speaker up against a wall will still exhibit some baffle step behavior at lower frequencies. Do you really want people to draw any conclusions from those plots? You are really not helping people understand the options and trade-offs by posting these types of plots and your stated conclusions.
The advantage of a high damping factor SS amp is that you determine the series resistance to be applied and get the speaker and amp optimized, power is typically not an issue. This combination has a lot of flexibility and adjustability. The disadvantage is that this approach does not fit the purist's code and often gets ridiculed on the forums.
The disadvantage of the low damping factor tube amp is that the resistor in series with the speaker is determined inside the amp design and the power available tends to be low enough that adding more resistance may not result in an improvement. If the resistance in the amp design is too much for the speaker design, the bass will boom and you are stuck.
I do not agree with your conclusion that the Onkyo will automatically not work well, I believe the reciever in question might work just fine if the appropriate circuit is inserted into the positive leg of the speaker.
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