Coating+phase plugs to FE167

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This could have been posted on my Chilli thread - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132443 but is mainly about apllying some of Dave's mods to the FE167.

Please read both parts of this, the first sounds slightly negative but comes good on the second part?

Part 1 - Coating the FE167 cone …. I found some Mod Podge (aka Puzzlecoat) in my local Arts and Crafts store, so took the divers out and gave them a single light coat. This is a very quick and easy operation and as it seems to be a modified??? PVA glue dries very quickly. So within half an hour you can be up and running again.

To be brutally honest, I was a bit disappointed in the results, the sound seemed to marginally "harden" up and voices sounded ever-so edgy? but I think I gained a little more "zing" in the top frequencies. Now I suspect some people would prefer this mod' but I rather like the softer sound of the original driver. So at this stage I'd have said I could have lived without this mod - however this is permanent but that didn't worry me as we are only talking small differences.

Part 2 - I'd order a set of phase plugs from Dave and they arrived a few days ago. Now this was definitely more scary I'd never attached a driver with a scapple before and could just imagine the damage I was about to do? Well actually if you follow Dave's pictorial installation and you haven't had 5 bottles of vino the night before it's rather easy.

Final result - WOW - what a different driver - mids are just soooo crisp, defined and smoooth. I always liked the original drivers voicing but with the phase plugs this sounds a whole heap better still! Now this qualifies Part 1 above …. with the clarity of the phase plugs the about coating comes into play and that "zing" in the top end just adds the shine up there? And the phase plugs have brought back that natural sound of voice but allows the coating to better control the cone and so adding to the overall improvement.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Picture doesn't show this but there is a faint gloss on cone after coating.

And yes - I'll probably EnABLe them at a later date.

Cheers - Phil
 
Leap of faith

Not really OT since I am breaking in the 167e I bought now.

But today I did the Damar treatment on one of my 127e's I was slow to come around to doing this.

Results are yet to be determined on that but my experiences with some inexpensive Pioneer 4 inchers with Damar have been good.

Did you wind up with any or many brush strokes from the mod podge?

I have some and have done a bit of that both straight out of the bottle and diluted.

I hope the Damar'ed 127 works out well. The varnish treatment gives the driver an 'antique look' that I don't know if I'll get comfortable with.

Examining the unit after Damar showed that the paper was translucent yet or maybe newly so. I did not compare to the other one I have untreated. I got just a wee bit on the cloth surround.
 
Re: Leap of faith

loninappleton said:
But today I did the Damar treatment on one of my 127e's I was slow to come around to doing this.

Hi - I also bought some Dammar but luckily mentioned this before use - see http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1649426#post1649426 Dave replied back quickly he doesn't use this much?? And I got another reply that it (Dammar) might be better with more heavier repair work.

If you think about it (which I didn't) varnish is a rigid/hard coating where as Mod Podge is pretty light and is supposed to have some flex in it??.

I did get some brush marks on the cone but you'd have to get extremely close to see and the colour of the driver isn't really effected except for a light gloss.

I'd be very interested to hear what you thought your drivers sounded like after your treatments.

I'd certainly recommend phase plugs, they just raised the speaker to a new level.

Cheers - Phil
 
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Re: Re: Leap of faith

greenie512 said:
where as Mod Podge is pretty light and is supposed to have some flex in it??.

Puzzlecoat retains flexibility until you use alot and or do both sides -- ie i'll do 3-5 fairly thick coats on the front and 2-3 coats on the back of a paper cone woofer i'll be using for sub duty. The "constrained" layer result of doing both sides stiffens things up quite a bit. You loose top end, but in this application that is a feature.

As i do it on FRs the prime purpose is to bond the top layer of fibres together to reduce cone self-noise. As well, i suspect (from listening and the resulting impedance curves) that it reduces the Q of the cone's resonances.

Greenie, i always do 2 coats on the raw paper cones... the 1st one sits into the paper of the cone, and the 2nd sits on top of the 1st coat creating a continuous layer .

dave
 
Re: Re: Leap of faith

planet10 said:


Did you do the whole cone?

dave


Yes, whole cone and dustcap. I was so pleased with the other job done that way so I duplicated that. If there's another option (I think trifoil was mentioned but not sure) I have another one that I can switch out of my first BIB.

What is your suggestion? A picture would help.

One thing I have noticed is that these old 127e's have a lot of flex after 7 years-- just touching it with the brush gives some movement.
But in my MLTL the 127e has less life (pre Damar treatment.) It remains to be seen if the varnish brings it back. It sure is odd that the inexpensive Pioneers are the one to beat in this household.
 
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Re: Re: Re: Leap of faith

loninappleton said:
Yes, whole cone and dustcap. I was so pleased with the other job done that way so I duplicated that. If there's another option (I think trifoil was mentioned but not sure) I have another one that I can switch out of my first BIB.

What is your suggestion? A picture would help.

One thing I have noticed is that these old 127e's have a lot of flex after 7 years-- just touching it with the brush gives some movement.
But in my MLTL the 127e has less life (pre Damar treatment.) It remains to be seen if the varnish brings it back. It sure is odd that the inexpensive Pioneers are the one to beat in this household.

My gut feeling is that the damar will exacerabate the peaky bits. It will be interesting to hear your take.

the trifoil pattern + the puzzlekoat (they work together) makes these peaky bits much less objectionable,

They have been making FE127e for 7 years? I thought they were newer than that.

dave
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Leap of faith

planet10 said:


My gut feeling is that the damar will exacerabate the peaky bits. It will be interesting to hear your take.

the trifoil pattern + the puzzlekoat (they work together) makes these peaky bits much less objectionable,

They have been making FE127e for 7 years? I thought they were newer than that.

dave

Still need to see what a trifoil pattern looks like.

In my other experiments with the Pioneers and after doing a bit of listening today I'd have to go with the Damar vs Mod Podge. But my listening style is different from the usual stereo pair.

Not sure about the release of the 127e. It seems to have been in the Madisound catalog forever and I got mine while at my current residence. I must've had them for at least 5 years.
 
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more detail linked from my Fostex FE12xeN page

dave
 

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planet10 said:
more detail linked from my Fostex FE12xeN page

dave


Jeez, I should have remembered that. Of course it is familiar.

Still chary about using the glue on 'em though.

I'm beginning to think that something is up with the two setups
that is keeping the FE127 setup in the bad position. Wondering out loud if it's the amp that is so much different between the two sources.

One is a good solid state receiver-- a Yamaha RP U100 -- the Fostex
and the other one is the three watts that comes out of a Sharp
boombox of, by now, pretty ancient vintage on the Pioneers.

Only other thing is positioning and the room itself. But that's an OT item.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Leap of faith

G'day,

I used damar on a pair of RS-1354A's with 200+ hours on them.
Cleaned up the high end and added more bass.
Although, it took probably another 20-30 hours after damar
treatment to settle down.

I think the key is to break the drivers in really well before
applying any cone treatment for best results.

Cheers,

Alex
 
Re: Re: Re: Leap of faith

planet10 said:


Greenie, i always do 2 coats on the raw paper cones... the 1st one sits into the paper of the cone, and the 2nd sits on top of the 1st coat creating a continuous layer .

dave


Hi Dave,

I hope I did not miss he answer somewhere but.... what do you consider the best treatment for the FE167E? How many coats on the cone and whizzer (I have micro gloss as I bought Ed's kit) and before or after the enabl process? Oh, and just one side of the whizzer? :)

What I could find so far is:
1. apply two coats of micro gloss on cone and inside whizzer (some do three)
2. apply enabl pattern

I hope I'm close.

Thanks,

Jeroen
 
frugal-phile™
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2 coats thinned puzzlekoat (ModPodge) on both cone and front of whizzer. 2nd layer will take less
EnABL pattern
3 coats of 50% Gloss on the cone (succeedingly less material required on each successive coat)
1 coat of 50% Gloss on the front of the whizzer and a light brush on the underside of the lip.

On the finished phase plugs, EnABL spots & 1 coat 50% gloss.
PVA nipple on tip, then 50% just on top

dave
 
planet10 said:
2 coats thinned puzzlekoat (ModPodge) on both cone and front of whizzer.
EnABL pattern
3 coats of 50% Gloss on the cone
1 coat of 50% Gloss on the front of the whizzer and a light brush on the underside of the lip.

On the finished phase plugs, EnABL spots & 1 coat 50% gloss.
PVA nipple on tip, then 50% just on top

dave

Thanks for the recipe Dave!!

In the kit from Ed there is the paint (polly scale flat finish) for the EnABL spots, the gloss coat (microscale) so that would be for the 3 layers of finish. But now I'm a bit confused abut the first 2 coats... puzzlecoat is not in the kit.

BTW : removing the dustcaps from the FE167E's was very easy, especially compared to my FE103sigma's.

Thanks,

Jeroen
 
planet10 said:


puzzlecoat is not part of the EnABL, it is part of the enhancement i do before EnABL, hence it is called pre-treatment.

http://t-linespeakers.org/design/tweeks.html

dave

Thanks!! The picture also helped in the link, a store here (Pipoos) sells the "Plaid-brand" Mod Podge. Do you have a preference for gloss or matte or does that not matter as the cone gets 3 layers of gloss anyway in the end? (The store sells both, got confused :) )

http://www.hobbyhandboek.nl/detail.asp?cat=H1&subcat=H02&id=32329

Thanks,

Jeroen
 
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