Cheap Philips fullrange on OB

Calamaro · 15th October 2008, 10:23 AM

I found a pair of vintage 8" Philips fullrange, model ad8080-8x/paper cone, light ferrite magnet. They're in a square cheap plastic enclosure and the sound is very clear but a little poor.
I tried to mount them on my open baffle and I've been really surprised... Suddenly they showed a very detailed presence, transparence and beautiful bass. I know old alnico speakers are the best solutions but these little cheap Philips are so nice... I wonder how this is possible with that small magnet.

Calamaro · 15th October 2008, 10:24 AM

Open baffle front view

Calamaro · 15th October 2008, 10:26 AM

Rear view

Godzilla · 15th October 2008, 06:04 PM

I had a similar experience with a cheap floorstanding speaker my friend owns. He wanted me to upgrade them with new parts. Listening to them was difficult. They were boomy and muddy sounding. I broke out the back of one and listened again. It was amazing to hear how much better the sound was. Detailed with great imaging. All i did was break out the back from each speaker and attach a metal grill to the back. He loves them. Bass was less but there was still enough bass to enjoy. I am not surprised at what you found with that cheap Phillips.

The question is which modern day driver will do the same for cheap?

Godzilla

pelanj · 15th October 2008, 07:03 PM

I guess the Philips driver is a high Qts one - that means muddy sound in a box - especially if placed near a wall - and more balance on open baffle.

I guess many today's cheap paper cone drivers can sound surprisingly well under certain conditions. There is a local manufacturer - www.tvm-valmez.cz, who makes high Qts fullrange drivers, mostly for PA purposes - and the design is maybe as old as the Philips driver. I've even heard some rumors, that the production line comes from Germany - and that it had something to do with Philips. Unfortunately, I do not have enough free space for open baffles - but I have a "vintage" two way Tesla bookshelf speakers with paper cones - and the sound is nice. In a different way than "modern" speakers.

Calamaro · 15th October 2008, 09:38 PM

Yes Godzilla, sadly today cheap means poor. I know vintage paper cone speakers (mostly german) today are really appreciated, Saba greencones are very renowed (tweeters in my OB are wonderful Saba greencones) but they all have huge alnico magnets. I'm really amazed by a so nice sound from a very light speaker.
Pelanj, so volume enclosure is related to Qts: the bigger the higher? And how about magnet weight? I mean which parameters are related?

Found this:
http://www.thespeakerstore.com/gloss...akerswork.htm:
Another important parameter is the material of which the magnet is made. Newer speakers have magnets made of neodymium, strontium, and barium, among other technologically advanced metal composites. Older and cheaper units use alnico 5 and other less dense alloys that may have only one third or less of the magnetic potential of the newer composites.

pelanj · 15th October 2008, 11:45 PM

Usually, the smaller the magnet, the higher the Qts is - for otherwise mechanically similar speakers.. And if you stick a speaker in a sealed box, you always rise the Qts and resonant frequency.

Calamaro · 16th October 2008, 10:59 AM

Then smaller magnets are better for open baffle spakers?

pelanj · 16th October 2008, 12:02 PM

If you take into account, that a high Qts woofer is needed, then it will most probably have a smaller magnet than a same size woofer with lower Qts. But you have to be inside some limits, sometimes the magnet is too small and the resulting Qts is too high. My own experience with OB speakers is limited mostly to electic guitar speakers - which are mostly paper cone speakers with small magnet and highish Qts (0,6 and up). The sound is much more open and spatial with and open box, closing it usually muddens things a little up (if it is not a low Qts EVM12L). Most of the time I am using an open box 12" speaker for the top and a low tuned bass reflex box on the bottom - that gives me best of both worlds for guitar. And I can imagine, this could work for HiFi as well.

Godzilla · 16th October 2008, 04:43 PM

>>> Most of the time I am using an open box 12" speaker for the top and a low tuned bass reflex box on the bottom - that gives me best of both worlds for guitar. And I can imagine, this could work for HiFi as well.

I'm believe your assumption to be correct.

15th October 2008, 06:04 PM	#4
Godzilla diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New York	I had a similar experience with a cheap floorstanding speaker my friend owns. He wanted me to upgrade them with new parts. Listening to them was difficult. They were boomy and muddy sounding. I broke out the back of one and listened again. It was amazing to hear how much better the sound was. Detailed with great imaging. All i did was break out the back from each speaker and attach a metal grill to the back. He loves them. Bass was less but there was still enough bass to enjoy. I am not surprised at what you found with that cheap Phillips. The question is which modern day driver will do the same for cheap? Godzilla __________________ www.ZillaAudio.com

16th October 2008, 04:43 PM	#10
Godzilla diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New York	>>> Most of the time I am using an open box 12" speaker for the top and a low tuned bass reflex box on the bottom - that gives me best of both worlds for guitar. And I can imagine, this could work for HiFi as well. I'm believe your assumption to be correct. __________________ www.ZillaAudio.com

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15th October 2008, 07:03 PM	#5
pelanj diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2008	I guess the Philips driver is a high Qts one - that means muddy sound in a box - especially if placed near a wall - and more balance on open baffle. I guess many today's cheap paper cone drivers can sound surprisingly well under certain conditions. There is a local manufacturer - www.tvm-valmez.cz, who makes high Qts fullrange drivers, mostly for PA purposes - and the design is maybe as old as the Philips driver. I've even heard some rumors, that the production line comes from Germany - and that it had something to do with Philips. Unfortunately, I do not have enough free space for open baffles - but I have a "vintage" two way Tesla bookshelf speakers with paper cones - and the sound is nice. In a different way than "modern" speakers.

15th October 2008, 09:38 PM	#6
Calamaro diyAudio Member Join Date: Mar 2008	Yes Godzilla, sadly today cheap means poor. I know vintage paper cone speakers (mostly german) today are really appreciated, Saba greencones are very renowed (tweeters in my OB are wonderful Saba greencones) but they all have huge alnico magnets. I'm really amazed by a so nice sound from a very light speaker. Pelanj, so volume enclosure is related to Qts: the bigger the higher? And how about magnet weight? I mean which parameters are related? Found this: http://www.thespeakerstore.com/gloss...akerswork.htm: Another important parameter is the material of which the magnet is made. Newer speakers have magnets made of neodymium, strontium, and barium, among other technologically advanced metal composites. Older and cheaper units use alnico 5 and other less dense alloys that may have only one third or less of the magnetic potential of the newer composites.

15th October 2008, 11:45 PM	#7
pelanj diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2008	Usually, the smaller the magnet, the higher the Qts is - for otherwise mechanically similar speakers.. And if you stick a speaker in a sealed box, you always rise the Qts and resonant frequency.

16th October 2008, 10:59 AM	#8
Calamaro diyAudio Member Join Date: Mar 2008	Then smaller magnets are better for open baffle spakers?

16th October 2008, 12:02 PM	#9
pelanj diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2008	If you take into account, that a high Qts woofer is needed, then it will most probably have a smaller magnet than a same size woofer with lower Qts. But you have to be inside some limits, sometimes the magnet is too small and the resulting Qts is too high. My own experience with OB speakers is limited mostly to electic guitar speakers - which are mostly paper cone speakers with small magnet and highish Qts (0,6 and up). The sound is much more open and spatial with and open box, closing it usually muddens things a little up (if it is not a low Qts EVM12L). Most of the time I am using an open box 12" speaker for the top and a low tuned bass reflex box on the bottom - that gives me best of both worlds for guitar. And I can imagine, this could work for HiFi as well.

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