>>> Yes, the low Q AN or 206 or Lowther is not designed for open baffle. But I believe a so called 'free air' scenario is the litmus for a driver's flaws. No box to add its own character to the presentation.
Now everything makes more sense!
>>> You know you want a pair of Lowthers Jeff...
Yes, i admit it, I DO! But once spending for Lowthers, what will stop me from smuggling in a pair of Feastrex or those neat new Seas?!? Fortunately, Fostex has staved off the desire. They are a good drug and provide comfort. But after surgery i found much better pain relievers than Tylenol.
Plus, my wife would kill me if she found out the cost.
Now everything makes more sense!
>>> You know you want a pair of Lowthers Jeff...
Yes, i admit it, I DO! But once spending for Lowthers, what will stop me from smuggling in a pair of Feastrex or those neat new Seas?!? Fortunately, Fostex has staved off the desire. They are a good drug and provide comfort. But after surgery i found much better pain relievers than Tylenol.
Plus, my wife would kill me if she found out the cost.
InclinedPlane,
Did you run your full range drivers all alone on an OB or did you use some woofers to take the bass frequencies off of the full range drivers? If you used woofers were they efficient enough to match the full range drivers once the OB roll off is accounted for in the response?
In a boxed speaker driven by a SS amp it would seem to me that a BSC filter is a requirement. The sound you describe would indicate that you are running them connected directly to the amp without the filter. Is that correct?
I have run my Lowthers in both boxed and OB arrangements with SS amps and the sound is a cut way above anything that Fostex or AN can provide. Could be you just have been unlucky enough to use a poor OB or box design. How do you design your systems?
Did you run your full range drivers all alone on an OB or did you use some woofers to take the bass frequencies off of the full range drivers? If you used woofers were they efficient enough to match the full range drivers once the OB roll off is accounted for in the response?
In a boxed speaker driven by a SS amp it would seem to me that a BSC filter is a requirement. The sound you describe would indicate that you are running them connected directly to the amp without the filter. Is that correct?
I have run my Lowthers in both boxed and OB arrangements with SS amps and the sound is a cut way above anything that Fostex or AN can provide. Could be you just have been unlucky enough to use a poor OB or box design. How do you design your systems?
Nothing that approaches the realm of design, I think heh. It's just a 2'x4' plywood baffle 1.5" thick with minimal rear wings just deep enough to let the thing stand up. AN is run fullrange in parallel with a Pyle PPA15. There is an iron core on the PPA15 of..hm..maybe 3.0 or 3.9mh not sure which atm. The other PPA15 is run by a sub amp.
The cut is possibly too high and/or too shallow on the X-overed PPA15 but it sounds mighty fine to me. The sub amp has a variable electronic low pass from 40-500hz and that's mighty handy because I can fill in some of the area the X-overed PPA15 leaves out due to its lower sensitivity compared to the AN.
I haven't noticed any strain or xmax problems on the AN when driving the system hard. Holy crap this thing is loud. It's amazing that even with ridiculous levels of bass none of the six drivers are moving very much. I'm mighty pleased with this system; it's the first thing that has really made me happy in 20 years of trying stuff. (yea yea I know that means squat)
It's big n' ugly but produces massive bass to 25hz and I feel that the midbass and midrange are not lacking. The AN is too strong at 15khz; that's mildly annoying.
I'm sold on short throw drivers.
The cut is possibly too high and/or too shallow on the X-overed PPA15 but it sounds mighty fine to me. The sub amp has a variable electronic low pass from 40-500hz and that's mighty handy because I can fill in some of the area the X-overed PPA15 leaves out due to its lower sensitivity compared to the AN.
I haven't noticed any strain or xmax problems on the AN when driving the system hard. Holy crap this thing is loud. It's amazing that even with ridiculous levels of bass none of the six drivers are moving very much. I'm mighty pleased with this system; it's the first thing that has really made me happy in 20 years of trying stuff. (yea yea I know that means squat)
It's big n' ugly but produces massive bass to 25hz and I feel that the midbass and midrange are not lacking. The AN is too strong at 15khz; that's mildly annoying.
I'm sold on short throw drivers.
cheers for ideas guys, it seems that the general consensus is that both are good drivers and would be reasonable well suited for my needs. i reckon that ill go for the 206s for now as i may build a single back loaded bass horn also using a fostex driver to give a bit more bass to the mix. for the price though im considering getting a set of the ANs as well and comparing them (but thats a hell of a lot of burn in time if keep swaping them over). when i can afford it id love a set of lowthers but really for them id want to build a set of really nice cabs i dont think the acoustas would really do them justice.
Friends - my experience with the fe206e:
Initially, I found it to be the most exciting, dynamic, jaw dropping speaker experience I have had in my life. However, the 'harshness' of the high frequencies started to chip away my enjoyment. I kept convincing myself 'these babies will get better when the break in'.. 100 hours, 200 hours, 500 hours. But alas they never did, and eventually the harshness got to me and I had to change.
I built the Martin Kings MLTL and played around with the bsc. Then I built the Fostex BLH cabinets. I played around with a bsc on them. I tried valve amps, solid state, swapped sources, changed rooms set up, damped baskets, 0.99c whizzer mod, covers, damped the compression chamber...the list goes on. I didnt try the decware mods though.
I even had my hearing tested, and I do seem to have a sensitivity for frequencies around 2000hz. maybe it was caused by years of screaming kids, not the speakers?
Eventually, I gave away the 206 as I couldnt get rid of the harshness without causing other problems.
Having been bitten by the horn bug, I now am a happy owner of the Fostex FE208EZ and Nagaoka D-58ES combination with T90A horn tweeters. This is a great combination with all the beauty of the horn design, and none of the harshness of the 206. Bliss.
I wanted to love the 206 as many on this forum had written such good things about it. I tried and failed. Maybe you will succeed.
Initially, I found it to be the most exciting, dynamic, jaw dropping speaker experience I have had in my life. However, the 'harshness' of the high frequencies started to chip away my enjoyment. I kept convincing myself 'these babies will get better when the break in'.. 100 hours, 200 hours, 500 hours. But alas they never did, and eventually the harshness got to me and I had to change.
I built the Martin Kings MLTL and played around with the bsc. Then I built the Fostex BLH cabinets. I played around with a bsc on them. I tried valve amps, solid state, swapped sources, changed rooms set up, damped baskets, 0.99c whizzer mod, covers, damped the compression chamber...the list goes on. I didnt try the decware mods though.
I even had my hearing tested, and I do seem to have a sensitivity for frequencies around 2000hz. maybe it was caused by years of screaming kids, not the speakers?
Eventually, I gave away the 206 as I couldnt get rid of the harshness without causing other problems.
Having been bitten by the horn bug, I now am a happy owner of the Fostex FE208EZ and Nagaoka D-58ES combination with T90A horn tweeters. This is a great combination with all the beauty of the horn design, and none of the harshness of the 206. Bliss.
I wanted to love the 206 as many on this forum had written such good things about it. I tried and failed. Maybe you will succeed.
You've hit the nail on the head there then Martin. Not an ideal situation for Lowthers at all.
FR drivers do not do rock, unless either supported with woofers up to their mass-corner, or horn loaded. You try that on a baffle without either, you've had it. That's not what they're designed for. The stock 206 does benefit from adding a phase plug, no doubt about that. Puts a hole in the response right about where female vocals can suffer sibilance, so erradicates that issue.
Higher Q driver, weaker motor, less efficiency, slightly flatter response, IB.
No phenomenon. You're not burning the driver in, what you're doing is loosening the suspension up to spec. All drivers see this to varying extents & how long it takes depends on how the driver is loaded. Re the voice coil, think on the designed resistance & temperatures & you'll understand what I was refering to above (yes, they are designed with that in mind).
As for wire, what you are doing is using its LCR properties to improve / optimise an amplifer-driver match. Resistive wire = artifically raises driver Qe, lowers Bl, Re & Le, or, to put it another way, will lower the DF of the amplifier. Useful if you've got a high DF amp with a low Q driver, which is a bad combination.
Well, a couple of points spring to mind. Firstly, may I gently point out that the An Super8 is 16db over nominal, peaking at 112db, so I assume you would also consider this 'ridiculous.' Especially as with a nominal sensitivity of just over 95db, against, say, the EX2s 97.5db, it's a substantially greater relative increase. And secondly -who said such peaking (for either driver) would remain if loaded the way such units really are intended to be loaded? As I mentioned before, much of this will vanish in practice when horn-loaded.
I beg to differ -the mark of a good driver is how well it achieves its design goals.
Don't know about the websites worth of tweaks remark -that's for people who wish to do so. As for the rest, I've covered it. Question: are you using the driver in the way it was intended to be used (or if not, adequately compensating for the fact)? If yes, then it's not an issue. If no, then it's not the fault of the driver. So, your Bentley got stuck when you drove it across a ploughed field. That must mean its rubbish, right?
It means it's a better match to your amplifier. As noted above, higher Q (ignore the factory specs, they're all incorrect), weaker motor, lower mass-corner, less efficiency, inherently flatter IB FR across the midband. You can't consider a loudspeaker as being separate from the amplifier. They form a combined system. Let me give you another anaology -let us, say, you had a 3.5wpc SET amp (I don't care whether you like them or not, or whether you think they're rubbish, or whether you love them. Just imagine you had one). And your speakers were 1ohm, 75db efficient Apogees. You reckon that'd work well? No, I don't think so either. What in essence you appear to be doing is going the opposite way -big SS amp, hyper-efficient drivers, no compensation made for the fact that the latter are not designed to work with the former. Result is equally bad, for the same basic reasons.
...The problem here being is that it is predicated upon the assumption that all speakers will work equally well with all other components higher up the chain. Would that life were like that, but it isn't. Lowthers for e.g. are designed specifically to be used with a certain type of amplifier and in certain types of enclosure. You can run them in others easily enough, or with different amps, as Martin does but only if you make adequate adjustments (for example, appropriate Eq to compensate for the mis-match in equipment). As I mentioned before, when people don't do that, that's their problem, not the drivers.
Perfectly logical. You use what works for you, although a gentle suggestion is not to write off something just because you didn't understand it requires different handling.
Off-hand, I can only think of a half-dozen current drivers with AlNiCo motors BTW, inclusive of Omega's own units. Lowther have a couple IIRC, & there are a handful of others. Too expensive these days. Pity, it has its uses. Neodium has mostly supplanted it. Main benefit is that the smaller magnets allow better airflow to the rear of the cone.
FR drivers do not do rock, unless either supported with woofers up to their mass-corner, or horn loaded. You try that on a baffle without either, you've had it. That's not what they're designed for. The stock 206 does benefit from adding a phase plug, no doubt about that. Puts a hole in the response right about where female vocals can suffer sibilance, so erradicates that issue.
Higher Q driver, weaker motor, less efficiency, slightly flatter response, IB.
No phenomenon. You're not burning the driver in, what you're doing is loosening the suspension up to spec. All drivers see this to varying extents & how long it takes depends on how the driver is loaded. Re the voice coil, think on the designed resistance & temperatures & you'll understand what I was refering to above (yes, they are designed with that in mind).
As for wire, what you are doing is using its LCR properties to improve / optimise an amplifer-driver match. Resistive wire = artifically raises driver Qe, lowers Bl, Re & Le, or, to put it another way, will lower the DF of the amplifier. Useful if you've got a high DF amp with a low Q driver, which is a bad combination.
Well, a couple of points spring to mind. Firstly, may I gently point out that the An Super8 is 16db over nominal, peaking at 112db, so I assume you would also consider this 'ridiculous.' Especially as with a nominal sensitivity of just over 95db, against, say, the EX2s 97.5db, it's a substantially greater relative increase. And secondly -who said such peaking (for either driver) would remain if loaded the way such units really are intended to be loaded? As I mentioned before, much of this will vanish in practice when horn-loaded.
I beg to differ -the mark of a good driver is how well it achieves its design goals.
Don't know about the websites worth of tweaks remark -that's for people who wish to do so. As for the rest, I've covered it. Question: are you using the driver in the way it was intended to be used (or if not, adequately compensating for the fact)? If yes, then it's not an issue. If no, then it's not the fault of the driver. So, your Bentley got stuck when you drove it across a ploughed field. That must mean its rubbish, right?
It means it's a better match to your amplifier. As noted above, higher Q (ignore the factory specs, they're all incorrect), weaker motor, lower mass-corner, less efficiency, inherently flatter IB FR across the midband. You can't consider a loudspeaker as being separate from the amplifier. They form a combined system. Let me give you another anaology -let us, say, you had a 3.5wpc SET amp (I don't care whether you like them or not, or whether you think they're rubbish, or whether you love them. Just imagine you had one). And your speakers were 1ohm, 75db efficient Apogees. You reckon that'd work well? No, I don't think so either. What in essence you appear to be doing is going the opposite way -big SS amp, hyper-efficient drivers, no compensation made for the fact that the latter are not designed to work with the former. Result is equally bad, for the same basic reasons.
...The problem here being is that it is predicated upon the assumption that all speakers will work equally well with all other components higher up the chain. Would that life were like that, but it isn't. Lowthers for e.g. are designed specifically to be used with a certain type of amplifier and in certain types of enclosure. You can run them in others easily enough, or with different amps, as Martin does but only if you make adequate adjustments (for example, appropriate Eq to compensate for the mis-match in equipment). As I mentioned before, when people don't do that, that's their problem, not the drivers.
Perfectly logical. You use what works for you, although a gentle suggestion is not to write off something just because you didn't understand it requires different handling.
Off-hand, I can only think of a half-dozen current drivers with AlNiCo motors BTW, inclusive of Omega's own units. Lowther have a couple IIRC, & there are a handful of others. Too expensive these days. Pity, it has its uses. Neodium has mostly supplanted it. Main benefit is that the smaller magnets allow better airflow to the rear of the cone.
Wait...Adam are you me? Did I just post that?
This is why I'm curious about the Enable process. If it is indeed a 'boundary' problem, then the 'UDR' surround on the Fostex driver might help alot.
Has anyone tried a Fostex driver with the UDR surround? I guess I can't hope for comments on the harshness issue because it seems that very few people have a similar complaint (but I found at least one!)
After dabbling long enough with various enclosures and electronics I knew nothing would help a driver with harshness except a better driver...
This is why I'm curious about the Enable process. If it is indeed a 'boundary' problem, then the 'UDR' surround on the Fostex driver might help alot.
Has anyone tried a Fostex driver with the UDR surround? I guess I can't hope for comments on the harshness issue because it seems that very few people have a similar complaint (but I found at least one!)
After dabbling long enough with various enclosures and electronics I knew nothing would help a driver with harshness except a better driver...
FE208ESigma is one of my favourite FR (well, WR in practice). I nominally own a pair, which I paid for a year ago, but still haven't been posted.
Anyway, because they bandwidth limited it, they could focus all their attention on the midband and LF rather than doing the treble too. Big upgrade on stock Fostex drivers, not as detailed or quick as Lowthers. Still needs either a large horn, or supporting LF drivers below its mass corner though (massive motor-power & self-damping) and well-matched amplification, like any such unit. Like the other units, its not a forgiving driver.
Anyway, because they bandwidth limited it, they could focus all their attention on the midband and LF rather than doing the treble too. Big upgrade on stock Fostex drivers, not as detailed or quick as Lowthers. Still needs either a large horn, or supporting LF drivers below its mass corner though (massive motor-power & self-damping) and well-matched amplification, like any such unit. Like the other units, its not a forgiving driver.
As I've said a few times already Mr. Moose I've observed that the nasty sounds some fullrange drivers and especially Lowther make above 1khz are happening
regardless (again)
regardless!!!
of the type of amp or enclosure used. Take a look at adam's post. That my amp or enclosure is not the proper one(s) has no bearing on this specific issue.
Bleh; I should have started this in the Enable thread.
regardless (again)
regardless!!!
of the type of amp or enclosure used. Take a look at adam's post. That my amp or enclosure is not the proper one(s) has no bearing on this specific issue.
Bleh; I should have started this in the Enable thread.
You've refered to SS amps:
There are only a handful of SS amps that will work well with Lowthers, 206s, or drivers of similar spec., unless you apply an appropriate form of correction (did you do that, with any of them?) For example, Nelson Pass's Zen & First Watt designs. Basically, you need something with a very low DF / high output impedance, which are like hens teeth in the SS world.
I've read Adam's post. You might have noticed my other post above re the FE208ESigma (ESigma BTW, not EZ -I blame Madisound for that 'Z' nonsense... mutter, growl etc).
Regarding the MLTLs, once the (step-loss) correction circuit is in place, most people would be quite happy with the results for what they are. However, there are some for whom it still wouldn't seem right (fair enough) and will need to fully correct for the other issues involved. I'll leave it to you to explain all about those though as I'm done here.
There are only a handful of SS amps that will work well with Lowthers, 206s, or drivers of similar spec., unless you apply an appropriate form of correction (did you do that, with any of them?) For example, Nelson Pass's Zen & First Watt designs. Basically, you need something with a very low DF / high output impedance, which are like hens teeth in the SS world.
I've read Adam's post. You might have noticed my other post above re the FE208ESigma (ESigma BTW, not EZ -I blame Madisound for that 'Z' nonsense... mutter, growl etc).
Regarding the MLTLs, once the (step-loss) correction circuit is in place, most people would be quite happy with the results for what they are. However, there are some for whom it still wouldn't seem right (fair enough) and will need to fully correct for the other issues involved. I'll leave it to you to explain all about those though as I'm done here.
You keeps saying that drivers that require elaborate cabinets are bad. The truth is I have heard the clear, dynamic, undistorted bass that comes from a horn and now nothing else even sounds ok. Am I wrong? Is there some other design that does this? Before I heard rear loaded horn designs I thought that reproduced bass was muddy and undefined, period! Now I know it can be done and from my experience it's the only way to do it. So from this point of view drivers designed for horns (Lowthers, Fostex, AN, etc) are the only well designed drivers out there. Now this is a rather prejuduce thing to say but no more so than all your reasonings so far.
No, horns are a step in the right direction; far superior to conventional boxed designs. You're so right. Conventional design produce weird muddy bass. Horns do so much better. I just think OB is a step beyond that. It's one thing to build a speaker driver solely for use in horn loaded configurations, another to build drivers with hideously lumpy responses and count on a horn to fix it. Lowther calls themselves 'a world leader'. Hardly. Their drivers do a few things very right but also a few things very wrong. I gotta keep shopping.
If they could build a driver with Lowther's quickness, flatten out the response at least as much as Fostex, and kill the fingernail on a chalkboard high-freq sound while keeping the same electromechanical properties that enable horn use, then I would buy one just to have some horn fun. But I don't see the point in a horn because 1) they don't go far enough into the bass without being enormous 2) the sound from the horn mouth is and always will be delayed compared to the front of the cone and 3) it's still an enclosure which guides and modifies sound and although quick and tight cannot resemble the source material as accurately as a boxless driver.
If they could build a driver with Lowther's quickness, flatten out the response at least as much as Fostex, and kill the fingernail on a chalkboard high-freq sound while keeping the same electromechanical properties that enable horn use, then I would buy one just to have some horn fun. But I don't see the point in a horn because 1) they don't go far enough into the bass without being enormous 2) the sound from the horn mouth is and always will be delayed compared to the front of the cone and 3) it's still an enclosure which guides and modifies sound and although quick and tight cannot resemble the source material as accurately as a boxless driver.
maybe it's a bit out of thread, but since everybody has talk a lot about AN 8" driver,
i've a pair of AN super 8", i'm really unsitisfied with the bass of the minimonitor enclosure they suggested at commonsense.com and had no like putting them in a 90cm tall angular spiral horn.
could anyone suggest what would be the best BLH plan to suit them? possibly with front-opening... i think many are wondering that
thanks. Paolo
i've a pair of AN super 8", i'm really unsitisfied with the bass of the minimonitor enclosure they suggested at commonsense.com and had no like putting them in a 90cm tall angular spiral horn.
could anyone suggest what would be the best BLH plan to suit them? possibly with front-opening... i think many are wondering that
thanks. Paolo
'Best' is always entirely subjective because it depends on circumstances. How big can you go? Assuming you don't want to add more drivers, I can say that they'll go in the Sachiko box, but it's not what you'd call compact. Then again, if you're expecting bass from a horn, you'll know it's not exactly going to be mini-monitor size. 
actually something strange has just happened, i removed the bottom from my pair of angular spiral horn (90h 24w 30d cm) and now bass is coming out! the speaker is not balanced at all, but i think i'm gonna work a bit on it, since the bass seems rather good quality and articulate... seems like the two 3,5cm holes on the back were not doing their job as plan said... anyway i don't think the kind of sound is that people says of a horn...
i'll try to start a thread around this, maybe it would be a good idea to put horn like guide at the bottom, like in some of the Ghang family models?? (if i did understood how they work)...
btw, is the Sachiko a real horn design? would it have that kind of sound of say a medallion horn has? (i know it only from the reviews, never heard one, that's why i'm so curious about building it)
i was thinking of something like the fidelio, tall (the bib is just too tall anyway), not to wide and not too deep (i really dislike the acousta), would a standard lowther cabinet suit the AN?
what surprises me is that i found no trace of a specific horn design for any AN, altought everybody keep saying the are better suited in a horn...
i'll try to start a thread around this, maybe it would be a good idea to put horn like guide at the bottom, like in some of the Ghang family models?? (if i did understood how they work)...
btw, is the Sachiko a real horn design? would it have that kind of sound of say a medallion horn has? (i know it only from the reviews, never heard one, that's why i'm so curious about building it)
i was thinking of something like the fidelio, tall (the bib is just too tall anyway), not to wide and not too deep (i really dislike the acousta), would a standard lowther cabinet suit the AN?
what surprises me is that i found no trace of a specific horn design for any AN, altought everybody keep saying the are better suited in a horn...
It won't be. They're not horns, with or without the vents, just folded QW lines.
Yup.
I do hope not... (i.e. no, it doesn't) The Medallion is not, IMHO, an especially distinguished example of horn design.
The Lowther cabinets generally aren't particularly good (especially the Acousta, which really should have been taken round the back of the barn & shot years ago) & are best avoided.
Main reason for that is that the Fostex units are more popular, so naturally, you tend to see more designs for them. I might look into doing something for AN's cast frame models at some point, which have no Fostex equivalents.
and what about the cabinets for the 206 would they suit the An 8"?
for example the 206 has greater xmas, and even lower qts, that is what i think is making the spiralhorn design misbehaving with my AN...
what about the BVR, the bruce is also a real horn loading? i like it's smaller baffle than the sachicko, should i expect it to suit the AN with a frequency response inbeetween the 206 and the lowthers?
.really thanks for your time
for example the 206 has greater xmas, and even lower qts, that is what i think is making the spiralhorn design misbehaving with my AN...
what about the BVR, the bruce is also a real horn loading? i like it's smaller baffle than the sachicko, should i expect it to suit the AN with a frequency response inbeetween the 206 and the lowthers?
.really thanks for your time
Sachiko is designed for the 206. It just happens to be big enough for the AN driver to go in acceptably. The AN units prefer a large cabinet.
The differences won't help, especially the much higher Vas, but those spiralhorns are, bluntly, rubbish IMO even with the 'correct' driver (tell it like it is, Scott...
) It's a form of horn loading, of a different kind. I'm not sure what you mean by 'real horn loading' though? What is 'real' depends on the design goal, and, ultimately, what difference does it make?
No, it would be terrible. Not suitable for the AN drivers. Bruce itself as-is is now a obsolescent legacy design anyway. But with the site being provided free, & Dave's time being limited, we haven't had chance to update the pages for a while.
AN Super 8 ALNICO
Well, AN made an ALNICO version of the Super 8. Specs look great.
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/an8alnicospecs.jpg
Anybody heard it?
Well, AN made an ALNICO version of the Super 8. Specs look great.
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/an8alnicospecs.jpg
Anybody heard it?
Two points immediately spring to mind.
1/ Audio Nirvana's published specs are as ficticious (or more so) than those put out by most other driver manufacturers, so be careful if you're planning to design something based upon them, and
2/ 'Look[ing] great' is dependant upon what it is you want to do with them. Fine for some applications, rubbish for others, like any other driver. They would not, for e.g., be an immediately obvious choice for a BLH, unless you're prepared to go to extreme sizes.
1/ Audio Nirvana's published specs are as ficticious (or more so) than those put out by most other driver manufacturers, so be careful if you're planning to design something based upon them, and
2/ 'Look[ing] great' is dependant upon what it is you want to do with them. Fine for some applications, rubbish for others, like any other driver. They would not, for e.g., be an immediately obvious choice for a BLH, unless you're prepared to go to extreme sizes.
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