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Old 25th September 2008, 07:20 AM   #1
alspe is offline alspe  Finland
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Default Tuneful bass at low levels

Hi.

I have in my mind sound that is full and funeful when I play low levels. Rarely I play louder than 65-75 dB. I have noticed that most 2-way stand mounters don't "wake up" when played in low levels. I have had many different speakers and amplifiers. (Creek, Epos, Primare, Dynaudio, Cambridge Audio etc.)

I live in concrete based house so bass (in 2-way standers) get reinforcement by room (20 m2) but that normally just wakes room modes, don't make sound fuller and bodied. Lack of energy in mid bass and lower mids?

Can you tell your thoughts about this? What would be good full range driver and proper enclosure? Enclosure must be box type I think, not OB 'cos distance to back wall is to be about 50 cm. Also enclosure must reasonable sizes, about 100 cm tall, and max 25 cm wide.

I have Supravox 215 bicone in my mind but does it give too much lows for such small room?


Thanks.

-Ali
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Old 25th September 2008, 12:29 PM   #2
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You might want to check this link: Fletcher Munson Curves

A speaker can only really be balanced at one SPL level. Most speakers are voiced to play louder than your normal level, so they sound thin with little detail. You will need to design the proper EQ into your speakers.

Once upon a time, amplifiers had loudness controls. Apparently that was too confusing to the masses and sacrilege to audio purists.

Bob
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Old 25th September 2008, 01:42 PM   #3
bvan is offline bvan  Denmark
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I've been on a similar quest for a few years after developing a mild case of hyperaccusis.

What I've learned to look for are speakers that track low level microdynamics well. My current Bastanis Prometheus do this well, but are OB so not for you. Anything high-sensitivity and preferably crossoverless will have an advantage here. Horns also work well.

Low noise floor also NB. Battery powered amps such as Red Wine Audio have worked well. Also tubes in general, provided they are quiet (my Bottlehead S.E.X is probably even quieter than my Red Wine amp) also sometimes seem to sound better at low volume than SS, dont know why.

Most important of all might be allowing for the Fletcher Munson Curves i.e you need biamed bass drivers/subs to allow you to lift the lower frequencies for lower volume listening. I use a Behringer DEQ2496 on my bass drivers and have 'house curves' programed in for this reason.

cheers
Bevan

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Old 26th September 2008, 11:09 PM   #4
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Default Go for high efficiency

For reason's I do not understand, high efficiency drivers seem to maintain their ability to "stay alive" at low volumes. Horns can do this, but bass horns get BIG quickly.

I would suggest using Tone Tubby 12' Alnico drivers in an open baffle from 60 hz up to 2kHz if necessary, and a Rythmic subwoofer below 60 hz.. Great tonality that holds up at low volumes. Corner horns, like the Klipsh, would work also. But think High Efficiency first, and pick out something that will blend with your mids & highs.

Of course you could use Lowthers in a bass horn, but that would sound like self serving advertisment, and I don't do that.
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Old 28th September 2008, 05:18 PM   #5
Karl71 is offline Karl71  United States
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Bob -

How does one voice a speaker for SPL? You've hit it on the head as to why most speakers sound anemic at low volumes.

Regards,

Karl Lewis
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Old 28th September 2008, 10:54 PM   #6
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The balance between the bass and the mid-range is set by the BSC filter. If you are going to listen at consistently low levels, increase the value of the bypass resistor. Go to 10, even 15 ohms. If you are using a zobel, take it out. That will generally increase the treble, but this is very driver specific. It does work well with the FE167E and FE207E.

If you don't want to mes up the BSC because you normally listen at a higher level, then push the speakers up against the wall. That will increase the bass 3-4dB.

Bob
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Old 29th September 2008, 01:35 AM   #7
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Default Re: Tuneful bass at low levels

Quote:
Originally posted by alspe
Hi.

I have Supravox 215 bicone in my mind but does it give too much lows for such small room?

-Ali

I think its a dipole driver with its 0.8 Qts

Unless you mean the 215TF64 Bicone with 0.53 Qts
It would probably do nice in closed or in a quaterwave
wonder how it would do in 200 liter BR...now that GMs BIBs are too big
suppose you would get your requested tunefull bass at low levels
supertweeter could be an option too
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Old 30th September 2008, 12:01 PM   #8
alspe is offline alspe  Finland
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Hi.

Yes I know that hearing curve. Humar hearing is less sensitive in low freq and even less sensitive when playing low SPL. (Sorry if I write badly)

Could it be that room gain does not help little driver that much when played low? Room doesn't "wake up" to boost like it does when more low freq energy is brought in room?

I'm looking for some nice DIY project, it do not must be full range. It can more traditional 2-way but main thing is to get "punchy" bass when playing low SPL.

Does anyone know DIY projects around this kind of speakers? Could large PA cone be an answer?


-Ali
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Old 30th September 2008, 12:17 PM   #9
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally posted by alspe
Hi.

Does anyone know DIY projects around this kind of speakers?

Could large PA cone be an answer?

-Ali

The one you show may not be at its best at low levels, but will probably shine when loud

But a big 15-18" woofer (maybe crossed active with Eq)
and 100-10khz reproduced with a fullrange driver...carefully chosen and it will roll off by itself
and maybe a supertweeter above 10khz
It could very well be a good solution

btw...now you are from Finland.... HIFI KIT, Electronic, Sweden have a very nice looking GAMMA 12" with nice specs, which would probably suit a little widerange like the Fostex FX120 or F120A

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Old 30th September 2008, 01:08 PM   #10
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hmmm........

Massive high senstivity speakers to do 65/75dB ?
how are you measuring this ? its very low ....

What do you plan on driving them with ? flea power amplifier ?

The problem sounds like no baffle step compensation and possibly
lack of really low bass which at low levels can be EQ'd back in.

Punchy bass FWIW does not go hand in hand with bass extension,
I can only see accurate bass, if it is not like that on the recording
then "punchifying" it is going to be difficult.

Properly EQ'd sealed boxes that go low seem your best bet.

/sreten.
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