Hi.
I have in my mind sound that is full and funeful when I play low levels. Rarely I play louder than 65-75 dB. I have noticed that most 2-way stand mounters don't "wake up" when played in low levels. I have had many different speakers and amplifiers. (Creek, Epos, Primare, Dynaudio, Cambridge Audio etc.)
I live in concrete based house so bass (in 2-way standers) get reinforcement by room (20 m2) but that normally just wakes room modes, don't make sound fuller and bodied. Lack of energy in mid bass and lower mids?
Can you tell your thoughts about this? What would be good full range driver and proper enclosure? Enclosure must be box type I think, not OB 'cos distance to back wall is to be about 50 cm. Also enclosure must reasonable sizes, about 100 cm tall, and max 25 cm wide.
I have Supravox 215 bicone in my mind but does it give too much lows for such small room?
Thanks.
-Ali
I have in my mind sound that is full and funeful when I play low levels. Rarely I play louder than 65-75 dB. I have noticed that most 2-way stand mounters don't "wake up" when played in low levels. I have had many different speakers and amplifiers. (Creek, Epos, Primare, Dynaudio, Cambridge Audio etc.)
I live in concrete based house so bass (in 2-way standers) get reinforcement by room (20 m2) but that normally just wakes room modes, don't make sound fuller and bodied. Lack of energy in mid bass and lower mids?
Can you tell your thoughts about this? What would be good full range driver and proper enclosure? Enclosure must be box type I think, not OB 'cos distance to back wall is to be about 50 cm. Also enclosure must reasonable sizes, about 100 cm tall, and max 25 cm wide.
I have Supravox 215 bicone in my mind but does it give too much lows for such small room?
Thanks.
-Ali
You might want to check this link: Fletcher Munson Curves
A speaker can only really be balanced at one SPL level. Most speakers are voiced to play louder than your normal level, so they sound thin with little detail. You will need to design the proper EQ into your speakers.
Once upon a time, amplifiers had loudness controls. Apparently that was too confusing to the masses and sacrilege to audio purists.
Bob
A speaker can only really be balanced at one SPL level. Most speakers are voiced to play louder than your normal level, so they sound thin with little detail. You will need to design the proper EQ into your speakers.
Once upon a time, amplifiers had loudness controls. Apparently that was too confusing to the masses and sacrilege to audio purists.
Bob
I've been on a similar quest for a few years after developing a mild case of hyperaccusis.
What I've learned to look for are speakers that track low level microdynamics well. My current Bastanis Prometheus do this well, but are OB so not for you. Anything high-sensitivity and preferably crossoverless will have an advantage here. Horns also work well.
Low noise floor also NB. Battery powered amps such as Red Wine Audio have worked well. Also tubes in general, provided they are quiet (my Bottlehead S.E.X is probably even quieter than my Red Wine amp) also sometimes seem to sound better at low volume than SS, dont know why.
Most important of all might be allowing for the Fletcher Munson Curves i.e you need biamed bass drivers/subs to allow you to lift the lower frequencies for lower volume listening. I use a Behringer DEQ2496 on my bass drivers and have 'house curves' programed in for this reason.
cheers
Bevan
p.s double glaze windows is money well spent!
What I've learned to look for are speakers that track low level microdynamics well. My current Bastanis Prometheus do this well, but are OB so not for you. Anything high-sensitivity and preferably crossoverless will have an advantage here. Horns also work well.
Low noise floor also NB. Battery powered amps such as Red Wine Audio have worked well. Also tubes in general, provided they are quiet (my Bottlehead S.E.X is probably even quieter than my Red Wine amp) also sometimes seem to sound better at low volume than SS, dont know why.
Most important of all might be allowing for the Fletcher Munson Curves i.e you need biamed bass drivers/subs to allow you to lift the lower frequencies for lower volume listening. I use a Behringer DEQ2496 on my bass drivers and have 'house curves' programed in for this reason.
cheers
Bevan
p.s double glaze windows is money well spent!
Go for high efficiency
For reason's I do not understand, high efficiency drivers seem to maintain their ability to "stay alive" at low volumes. Horns can do this, but bass horns get BIG quickly.
I would suggest using Tone Tubby 12' Alnico drivers in an open baffle from 60 hz up to 2kHz if necessary, and a Rythmic subwoofer below 60 hz.. Great tonality that holds up at low volumes. Corner horns, like the Klipsh, would work also. But think High Efficiency first, and pick out something that will blend with your mids & highs.
Of course you could use Lowthers in a bass horn, but that would sound like self serving advertisment, and I don't do that.
For reason's I do not understand, high efficiency drivers seem to maintain their ability to "stay alive" at low volumes. Horns can do this, but bass horns get BIG quickly.
I would suggest using Tone Tubby 12' Alnico drivers in an open baffle from 60 hz up to 2kHz if necessary, and a Rythmic subwoofer below 60 hz.. Great tonality that holds up at low volumes. Corner horns, like the Klipsh, would work also. But think High Efficiency first, and pick out something that will blend with your mids & highs.
Of course you could use Lowthers in a bass horn, but that would sound like self serving advertisment, and I don't do that.
The balance between the bass and the mid-range is set by the BSC filter. If you are going to listen at consistently low levels, increase the value of the bypass resistor. Go to 10, even 15 ohms. If you are using a zobel, take it out. That will generally increase the treble, but this is very driver specific. It does work well with the FE167E and FE207E.
If you don't want to mes up the BSC because you normally listen at a higher level, then push the speakers up against the wall. That will increase the bass 3-4dB.
Bob
If you don't want to mes up the BSC because you normally listen at a higher level, then push the speakers up against the wall. That will increase the bass 3-4dB.
Bob
alspe said:
I think its a dipole driver with its 0.8 Qts
Unless you mean the 215TF64 Bicone with 0.53 Qts
It would probably do nice in closed or in a quaterwave
wonder how it would do in 200 liter BR...now that GMs BIBs are too big
suppose you would get your requested tunefull bass at low levels
supertweeter could be an option too
Hi.
Yes I know that hearing curve. Humar hearing is less sensitive in low freq and even less sensitive when playing low SPL. (Sorry if I write badly)
Could it be that room gain does not help little driver that much when played low? Room doesn't "wake up" to boost like it does when more low freq energy is brought in room?
I'm looking for some nice DIY project, it do not must be full range. It can more traditional 2-way but main thing is to get "punchy" bass when playing low SPL.
Does anyone know DIY projects around this kind of speakers? Could large PA cone be an answer?
-Ali
Yes I know that hearing curve. Humar hearing is less sensitive in low freq and even less sensitive when playing low SPL. (Sorry if I write badly)
Could it be that room gain does not help little driver that much when played low? Room doesn't "wake up" to boost like it does when more low freq energy is brought in room?
I'm looking for some nice DIY project, it do not must be full range. It can more traditional 2-way but main thing is to get "punchy" bass when playing low SPL.
Does anyone know DIY projects around this kind of speakers? Could large PA cone be an answer?
-Ali
alspe said:
The one you show may not be at its best at low levels, but will probably shine when loud
But a big 15-18" woofer (maybe crossed active with Eq)
and 100-10khz reproduced with a fullrange driver...carefully chosen and it will roll off by itself
and maybe a supertweeter above 10khz
It could very well be a good solution
btw...now you are from Finland.... HIFI KIT, Electronic, Sweden have a very nice looking GAMMA 12" with nice specs, which would probably suit a little widerange like the Fostex FX120 or F120A
Hmmm........
Massive high senstivity speakers to do 65/75dB ?
how are you measuring this ? its very low ....
What do you plan on driving them with ? flea power amplifier ?
The problem sounds like no baffle step compensation and possibly
lack of really low bass which at low levels can be EQ'd back in.
Punchy bass FWIW does not go hand in hand with bass extension,
I can only see accurate bass, if it is not like that on the recording
then "punchifying" it is going to be difficult.
Properly EQ'd sealed boxes that go low seem your best bet.
/sreten.
Massive high senstivity speakers to do 65/75dB ?
how are you measuring this ? its very low ....
What do you plan on driving them with ? flea power amplifier ?
The problem sounds like no baffle step compensation and possibly
lack of really low bass which at low levels can be EQ'd back in.
Punchy bass FWIW does not go hand in hand with bass extension,
I can only see accurate bass, if it is not like that on the recording
then "punchifying" it is going to be difficult.
Properly EQ'd sealed boxes that go low seem your best bet.
/sreten.sreten said:
I dont recall any mentioning about request fore "punchy bass" ....the word is "tunefull bass", which is quite different
btw, specs on the 12" GAMMA I suggested are Fs/25hz, Qts/0.42, Vas/340, SPL/94db...I believe thats quite nice to go with a 90db fullrange driver, with BSC
its relatively cheap and seems to do nicely in closed box, tight and tunefull bass
Re: Go for high efficiency
Absolutely!
It's all about effective motor strength (Qes) and compliance (Vas) and having a box big enough to allow the driver to work against an appropriately weak air spring, or in the case of a horn, a large enough acoustic lever that allows a ~matching impedance at the mouth for an efficient acoustic power transfer.
Bottom line, for doing micro-dynamics and/or minimizing the power required to 'turn on' a speaker is either a very low Qes or a very high Vas or a combination of the two, so for LF in a 'live' room, a relatively low Q driver with a high Vas in either a huge cab tuned low or OB (if there's enough linear excursion) is what I'd be researching.
WRT power, I prefer having plenty of reserve power for all contingencies, but it's my understanding that the larger the amp the more non-linear they can become as less power demand there is with increasing speaker efficiency, so I prefer to pre-load a high power amp to ensure it's always in its 'sweet' BW and since this lowers the speaker system's electrical damping (DF), i.e. raising the driver's effective Qes, this needs to be accounted for in the cab design. Use a box program that allows factoring in series resistance to find the amount required for a given alignment.
If a tube or SS amp with transformer coupling is used, the added series resistance is built in, so just a matter of measuring it, then finding the best speaker alignment overall.
As always though, YMMV.
GM
Jon Ver Halen said:
Absolutely!
It's all about effective motor strength (Qes) and compliance (Vas) and having a box big enough to allow the driver to work against an appropriately weak air spring, or in the case of a horn, a large enough acoustic lever that allows a ~matching impedance at the mouth for an efficient acoustic power transfer.
Bottom line, for doing micro-dynamics and/or minimizing the power required to 'turn on' a speaker is either a very low Qes or a very high Vas or a combination of the two, so for LF in a 'live' room, a relatively low Q driver with a high Vas in either a huge cab tuned low or OB (if there's enough linear excursion) is what I'd be researching.
WRT power, I prefer having plenty of reserve power for all contingencies, but it's my understanding that the larger the amp the more non-linear they can become as less power demand there is with increasing speaker efficiency, so I prefer to pre-load a high power amp to ensure it's always in its 'sweet' BW and since this lowers the speaker system's electrical damping (DF), i.e. raising the driver's effective Qes, this needs to be accounted for in the cab design. Use a box program that allows factoring in series resistance to find the amount required for a given alignment.
If a tube or SS amp with transformer coupling is used, the added series resistance is built in, so just a matter of measuring it, then finding the best speaker alignment overall.
As always though, YMMV.
GM
Hi to all.
Don't get me wrong, I don't speak english as mother tongue so there can be words written before thinking. I don't mean punchy bass so it would be too energetic and too loud. That kind of bass would be easy to archieve with large reflex subwoofer @ 100 hz crossover. I have tried many subwoofers and thou phase is right and so on, sound is not very good.
With Consonance M12 I meant that large driver has lot of area so it don't have to move lot --> tuneful and quick bass? And wide baffle give more direct upper bass, not just room reflections.
Don't get me wrong, I don't speak english as mother tongue so there can be words written before thinking.
I don't mean punchy bass so it would be too energetic and too loud. That kind of bass would be easy to archieve with large reflex subwoofer @ 100 hz crossover. I have tried many subwoofers and thou phase is right and so on, sound is not very good.With Consonance M12 I meant that large driver has lot of area so it don't have to move lot --> tuneful and quick bass? And wide baffle give more direct upper bass, not just room reflections.
Ever listened to a sub on its own....? no punch... just flub flub wobble wobble.... I suspect the "punch is made in the high frequency content. The same I suspect is true for the tunefullness... Of course there is no denying the one note bass wonders out there... but they are normally an accepted comprimise on low cost or portable devices...
I guess I don't listen to any popular music because what I do doesn't have 'one note' bass lines, though much of it suffers from having too much 'phone BW' emphasis that projects the singer and LF harmonics way out in front of the rest of the music. That, or they way too much HF boost to offset vehicle interior damping and the various road, window, etc., noise.
GM
That, or they way too much HF boost to offset vehicle interior damping and the various road, window, etc., noise.GM
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