As some of you here already know I've obtained a pair of CarderSound Madisons ---{CarderSound's version of the Sachiko for those who cannot DIY}--- and I'm absolutely hooked on their presentation of music. I have included a photo of my complete system taken from where I sit to listen, in case that helps.
I don't wish to debate whether or not Single Fullrange Speakers are really fullrange or not. I fully well understand & realise they don't cover 20Hz-20Khz ---{although mine are doing a quite respectable job from 30-35Hz-16-18Khzl}--- so yes they aren't really full range but, rather extremely wide range drivers!
That said, I don't feel any need at this time for any treble extention. I should explain that I usually ---{perhaps 90% of the time}--- listen to Smooth Jazz & Jazzy New Age music however, every now and then my desire for YES, Marillion, Genesis, Magnum, Shooting Star, Kansas etc. takes hold of me and when it does I find I wouldn't mind the extra foundation a subwoofer would add to the music.
So with that thought in mind I'm looking for recommendations a subwoofer that will match the speed, coherency, harmonic/tonal correctness and dynamics of the Madison/Sachiko design, while being efficient 96dB and up if possible, and capable of truly filling in from 50-100Hz and below in a manner that doesn't detract from what I'm already hearing. I don't care if your suggetion is DIY ---{actually I'm a bit surprised there isn't a DIY subwoofer on the Frugal-Horn site}--- kit or a manufactuered subwoofer provided it honestly meets my requirements. I realise I've asked about subwoofers before but, I haven't yet found or heard what I'm looking for. I would greatly appreciate any & all sincerely helpful responses.
Thetubeguy1954
Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!
I don't wish to debate whether or not Single Fullrange Speakers are really fullrange or not. I fully well understand & realise they don't cover 20Hz-20Khz ---{although mine are doing a quite respectable job from 30-35Hz-16-18Khzl}--- so yes they aren't really full range but, rather extremely wide range drivers!
That said, I don't feel any need at this time for any treble extention. I should explain that I usually ---{perhaps 90% of the time}--- listen to Smooth Jazz & Jazzy New Age music however, every now and then my desire for YES, Marillion, Genesis, Magnum, Shooting Star, Kansas etc. takes hold of me and when it does I find I wouldn't mind the extra foundation a subwoofer would add to the music.
So with that thought in mind I'm looking for recommendations a subwoofer that will match the speed, coherency, harmonic/tonal correctness and dynamics of the Madison/Sachiko design, while being efficient 96dB and up if possible, and capable of truly filling in from 50-100Hz and below in a manner that doesn't detract from what I'm already hearing. I don't care if your suggetion is DIY ---{actually I'm a bit surprised there isn't a DIY subwoofer on the Frugal-Horn site}--- kit or a manufactuered subwoofer provided it honestly meets my requirements. I realise I've asked about subwoofers before but, I haven't yet found or heard what I'm looking for. I would greatly appreciate any & all sincerely helpful responses.
Thetubeguy1954
Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!
Attachments
Interestingly the "other stuff" you mention don't likely have any bass below 40 Hz... so you are probably looking for more midbass punch. This kind of thing was exemplified when we installed a pair of FonkenWoofTLs under our Fonkens. Measured extension only goes down an extra 10 Hz or so, but with a HUGE increase in available impact (the improvements in the mid-top due to hi-passing the Fonkens didn't hurt either.
This is exactly what the Cardersound woofer with its push-push modified SDX7s does, it actually doesn't go a lot lower than the Madisons. What it does do that most subwoofers don't do that CS Morgan does is go up to 950 Hz which allows very good integration. Fortuitosly the SDX7 loves a sealed box, and with the XBL motor, means that it responds well to EQ, I have easily gotten 25 Hz measured in-room before any fall-off, The thing is that you need to get some serious cone-area if you want to play ay significant levels. Time to look at multiplies then. We are just embarking on a pair of woofers that will have 4 SDX7 per side -- ideally this many fit into 2-3 ft^3 per side.
Getting that last little bit, or going infrasonic, with something that integrates is a challenge. When we finish playing with the SDX7 we'll be starting to play with some of the larger XBL woofers, likely the SDX10 to start.
Getting something 96 dB efficient, going low, and keeping the box smaller than a walk-in fridge is also a challenge, One of the oft overlooked issues is getting a box that big that doesn't act as an uncontrolled passive radiator (this is where IB using another room or cavity in your house as a box comes in).
You'll have to actively amplify the woofer anyway so this is really a situation where one can just throw power at the problem.
dave
This is exactly what the Cardersound woofer with its push-push modified SDX7s does, it actually doesn't go a lot lower than the Madisons. What it does do that most subwoofers don't do that CS Morgan does is go up to 950 Hz which allows very good integration. Fortuitosly the SDX7 loves a sealed box, and with the XBL motor, means that it responds well to EQ, I have easily gotten 25 Hz measured in-room before any fall-off, The thing is that you need to get some serious cone-area if you want to play ay significant levels. Time to look at multiplies then. We are just embarking on a pair of woofers that will have 4 SDX7 per side -- ideally this many fit into 2-3 ft^3 per side.
Getting that last little bit, or going infrasonic, with something that integrates is a challenge. When we finish playing with the SDX7 we'll be starting to play with some of the larger XBL woofers, likely the SDX10 to start.
Getting something 96 dB efficient, going low, and keeping the box smaller than a walk-in fridge is also a challenge, One of the oft overlooked issues is getting a box that big that doesn't act as an uncontrolled passive radiator (this is where IB using another room or cavity in your house as a box comes in).
You'll have to actively amplify the woofer anyway so this is really a situation where one can just throw power at the problem.
dave
BHD said:
A BIB sub would be large enough to be impractical for a lot of rooms - and as the Madison/Sachiko aren't tiny to start with, this could well be one of the them.
OTOH, as Dave alludes, provided you have the power to through at them, multiples of the SDX7 are quite stunning, and can be crafted in pretty small boxes - particularly if the amps are outboard.
IMHO, a system like the Madisons and any well matched "sub" deserve better than the XO built into any plate amp I've yet heard.
Hello All!
Thanks for all the input and please keep it coming. I'd like to address everyone seperately...
==============================================
Thanks for the affirmation Godzilla! I love the way the Madisons look in Rosewood. Their looks are surpassed only by their sound! I could never go back to a multi-way, crossovered design again. I'm hooked on the way these types of speakers present music.
==============================================
Scott yes I know you responded before and I want you to know I really appreciate all your input. If it wasn't for you & your work I wouldn't own Madisons! Remember I specifically stated ---{ I realise I've asked about subwoofers before but, I haven't yet found or heard what I'm looking for?}--- Jeff Carder does incredible work and I highly recommend his work and his customer service. That said the Morgan just didn't grab me.
I was hoping for something, somewhat similar to the Madisons in shape/size but, designed with the idea of being a subwoofer. I checked the Frugal-Horn site but cannot seem to find the Shadow you spoke of. Perhaps you could give me a link to it?
==============================================
Dave aka Planet 10 I believe your suggestion of getting some serious cone-area, via multiples of drivers so I can play at significant levels is more of what I'd like! If you're embarking on a pair of subwoofers that will have 4 SDX7 per side, this is perhaps what I should wait for, unless of course you guys come up with an enclosure similar to the Madisons in size but designed to be and act as a subwoofer that I like better!
==============================================
BHD Your suggestion is a lot more in line of what I've actually been looking for. For me visual appeal is an important factor. Obviously it's NEVER before sonics but, there's absolutely no reason we cannot have both especially in the DIY community. I love the idea of a couple of 8" drivers in BIB's and using them as subs but, the enclosure would have to be optimized for that usage no? So as I don't know if the BIB's as is are optimized to be used as subs I'd need more info before proceeding in that direction.
==============================================
chrisb My room is a dedicated audio room. When we purchased our home my wife and I agreed she could decorate all rooms in the house ---{except for the audio room}--- anyway she wanted to but, this room is mine and I have free reign to do what I will as I choose to. So there's no issue with the BIB's being to large! IN fact as I've mentioned a few times already I'd like the subs to be close to the size of the Madison/Sachiko as possible. Fact is "IF" I could have afforded these http://tinyurl.com/4qtmvp I would have bought them, placed them in the corners of my room, removed the mid & treble drivers and used these as subwoofers!
Thanks Everyone!
Thetubeguy1954
Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!
Thanks for all the input and please keep it coming. I'd like to address everyone seperately...
==============================================
Thanks for the affirmation Godzilla! I love the way the Madisons look in Rosewood. Their looks are surpassed only by their sound! I could never go back to a multi-way, crossovered design again. I'm hooked on the way these types of speakers present music.
==============================================
Scott yes I know you responded before and I want you to know I really appreciate all your input. If it wasn't for you & your work I wouldn't own Madisons! Remember I specifically stated ---{ I realise I've asked about subwoofers before but, I haven't yet found or heard what I'm looking for?}--- Jeff Carder does incredible work and I highly recommend his work and his customer service. That said the Morgan just didn't grab me.
I was hoping for something, somewhat similar to the Madisons in shape/size but, designed with the idea of being a subwoofer. I checked the Frugal-Horn site but cannot seem to find the Shadow you spoke of. Perhaps you could give me a link to it?
==============================================
Dave aka Planet 10 I believe your suggestion of getting some serious cone-area, via multiples of drivers so I can play at significant levels is more of what I'd like! If you're embarking on a pair of subwoofers that will have 4 SDX7 per side, this is perhaps what I should wait for, unless of course you guys come up with an enclosure similar to the Madisons in size but designed to be and act as a subwoofer that I like better!
==============================================
BHD Your suggestion is a lot more in line of what I've actually been looking for. For me visual appeal is an important factor. Obviously it's NEVER before sonics but, there's absolutely no reason we cannot have both especially in the DIY community. I love the idea of a couple of 8" drivers in BIB's and using them as subs but, the enclosure would have to be optimized for that usage no? So as I don't know if the BIB's as is are optimized to be used as subs I'd need more info before proceeding in that direction.
==============================================
chrisb My room is a dedicated audio room. When we purchased our home my wife and I agreed she could decorate all rooms in the house ---{except for the audio room}--- anyway she wanted to but, this room is mine and I have free reign to do what I will as I choose to. So there's no issue with the BIB's being to large! IN fact as I've mentioned a few times already I'd like the subs to be close to the size of the Madison/Sachiko as possible. Fact is "IF" I could have afforded these http://tinyurl.com/4qtmvp I would have bought them, placed them in the corners of my room, removed the mid & treble drivers and used these as subwoofers!
Thanks Everyone!
Thetubeguy1954
Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!
Shadow
I heard from GM, who provided me with a link to the Shadow. I had tried finding the Shadow before on the Frugal-Horn site but, I couldn't locate it ---{thanks again for the link to it GM}--- now that I've actually see the Shadow, if I can have a pair of stacked Shadows built as a single enclosure, with a mouth on the top and bottom to match the Madisons in appearance, I believe this would be exactly what I've been looking for! Plus the addition of 4 more woofers ---{as I'd want a pair of stacked Shadows built}--- would add to their dynamic capabilities and power handling.
Now I have to contact Jeff @ CarderSound and ask what a pair of these "stacked" single enclosure Shadows done in Rosewood ---{so they match the Madisons}--- would cost me! This is the closest thing I've seen to what I've been imagining as my ideal subwoofer. Thanks very, very much to everyone who suggested the Shadow!
Thetubeguy1954
Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!
I heard from GM, who provided me with a link to the Shadow. I had tried finding the Shadow before on the Frugal-Horn site but, I couldn't locate it ---{thanks again for the link to it GM}--- now that I've actually see the Shadow, if I can have a pair of stacked Shadows built as a single enclosure, with a mouth on the top and bottom to match the Madisons in appearance, I believe this would be exactly what I've been looking for! Plus the addition of 4 more woofers ---{as I'd want a pair of stacked Shadows built}--- would add to their dynamic capabilities and power handling.
Now I have to contact Jeff @ CarderSound and ask what a pair of these "stacked" single enclosure Shadows done in Rosewood ---{so they match the Madisons}--- would cost me! This is the closest thing I've seen to what I've been imagining as my ideal subwoofer. Thanks very, very much to everyone who suggested the Shadow!
Thetubeguy1954
Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!
thetubeguy1954 said:
The largest possible 4 x SDX7 sealed would -- given the same footprint as Sachiko -- would be about 33" tall -- sealed gives huge latitude in terms of playing with the shape. Original Shadow was for 2 x Extremis 6.8 so a double mouth variation with 4 SDX7s shouldn't be a challenge, but the drivers wouldn't be near the floor where they perform best as a sub.
dave
I don't want to interfere with a sale or anything, but was wondering why not 2-4 SDX10 drivers over the 4-8 SDX7 drivers if CSS drivers are the choice? Paper vs carbon, lower fs and more cone area, and cheaper if 2 vs 4 and 4 vs8 etc.. Dave
Ps. Just a friendly inquiry, I guess if it were me I'd want the SDX10 over the SDX7 instead is all..
Ps. Just a friendly inquiry, I guess if it were me I'd want the SDX10 over the SDX7 instead is all..
This is what I built. Simple and very good. This is a take off on the Cain & Cain Bailey.
Bill
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=627919#post627919
Bill
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=627919#post627919
When looking for the various Dave/Scott designs, it's best to look on the plans page since it's probably always going to be the first updated: http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn-plans.html
Scroll down to the Chang Family of Moose BVR (mBVR)
GM
Scroll down to the Chang Family of Moose BVR (mBVR)
GM
DaveCan said:
At the moment the top end of the 10" is an unknown quantity, and having a woofer go up is important to them being able to seemlessly integrate. The SDX7 is a proven thing. It goes to 950 Hz (and then convienenly falls like a rock). Most of the 12 & 15" subwoofers are struggling to do a decent job at 200 Hz... OK if you are XOing below 40 Hz maybe... and the better the FR the harder it is to get the integration.
We are hoping the SDX10 will work out -- our feeling is that the XBL really helps out with the integration. Scott alluded to some boxes that we are getting together as we speak. One of those would come very close to being Madison sized with a pair of 10" each.
Now if i could just do research instead of having to try to make a living... so much to try, so little time.
dave
planet10 said:
Dave thanks for this last bit of info. I'd like to be crystal clear that when I'm listening to music via my Madison/Sachiko speakers, they are providing me with a sense of enjoyment I haven't felt since I was a youngster on the verge of becoming a teenager! I remember back then it was all about listening to the Beatles & Stones making music. It was NOT about the system it was being played on.
Now here we are and it's 9/25/08 and I've been in this hobby almost 40 years. The sad reality is that once I became aware of the audio equipment ---{probably around 16 or 18}--- I would always be listening to the equipment and the music. About 6 years back I jumped off the upgrade train, bought a really nice SET amp, and began to listen mainly to the music once again. However it's really only been since I received the Madison/Sachiko speakers that I've truly began listening to just the music and not my equipment and the music.
I can wait on a subwoofer, afterall 90% of the time I don't even need one. I think I'll just keep an eye on what Scott and Dave of Planet 10 are doing in this area and wait until something really grabs me. So far the idea of stacked Shadows built into a single enclosure is the closest to what I've been looking for.
That said I'm curious and would love to hear what other single fullrange driver users are doing to resolve their subwoofer needs and desires.
Thetubeguy1954
Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!
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