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Old 2nd September 2008, 06:21 PM   #1
jpetek is offline jpetek  Germany
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Default audience loudspeaker with Bandor

Hi,

this loudspeaker use Bandor Driver.

http://www.audience-av.com/loudspeakers/index.php

My Question is could anybody explain why the cabinet is open on the backside? Looks like to be a open for a bass reflex but this make no sense for me.

Anybody has a idea?

The bandor need only 2,54 Liters and a close cabinet.

Thanks for your help.

Josef
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Old 3rd September 2008, 03:43 AM   #2
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So, which Bandor drivers are these?  Got a link?

Aloha,

Poinz
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Old 3rd September 2008, 04:55 AM   #3
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why do you think it is open in the back ?

"The interior design of the ClairAudient has no parallel walls to cause standing wave resonance, a common form of coloration. The exterior is designed with round sides to improve dispersion and reduce baffle step response problems. The cabinet effects of the ClairAudient are virtually non-existent. "

looks ported to me.

I think there is something to the small stiff cone giving detail to the upper midrange and the lack of crossover effects.

The trouble is that at 13cm2, 4 of them have about the same area as 1 of the 4" tang band bamboo (57cm2).

I think there is a limit to how many you can stack vertically.

2 x 5" frame full range drivers seems good at 10-11'. So using more than 4 (2") would give the midrange a boost and the high end some cut (due to cancellation).

Bcherry ran 4 of the 2" jordans in a frame touching vert array.
"The 4 driver array is singing happily for the past few months. The combing effect is not noticeable."

then 9 ran

"The 9 drivers give much improved dynamics (in our room compared to the 4driver array) and excellent coherence as they are driven 100hz to their hf limit.
They needed compensation to tame a midrange bulge so some of the efficiency gain of a line array is lost but our 300B drive them comfortably in our largish room.
I would describe the sound as very silky smooth and and high resolution.
Combing and lobing are noticeable as you move around; the stereo image shifts as you move laterally and hfs drop out when moing vertically so listening requires staying within a narrow sweet spot. "


I'm thinking of running 4 of the $17 (u.s.) peerless 2" drivers and maybe a bit of eq on top, then rolling out below 300hz.

Norman
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Old 3rd September 2008, 09:10 AM   #4
jpetek is offline jpetek  Germany
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Hi Norman,

thank you for the answer.

You mean if I take more then 4 drivers I have a problem?

I thought to build the same Loudspeaker as Audience but with 16 or 24 driver from Bandor/Jordan.

The reason why is i have a big room.

it is very interesting for me to hear what experience you have with such line arrays.

regards

Josef
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Old 3rd September 2008, 12:45 PM   #5
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Bad idea from a technical POV to have a long, straight array of FR drivers. Ideally, you want the center-to-center spacing between drivers to be no greater apart than 1 wavelength of the highest frequency to be reproduced. When you move beyond that, you'll run into problems with the outputs of the drivers lobing, causing deep nulls in the response (comb-filtering) and attenuation.

So, for sake of argment, take a 3in driver, which will nominally mean a 3in center-to-center spacing (usually a bit more due to the frame). 3in = approximately 1 wavelength at 4.5KHz, so you will start to see this lobing occur at this point, & getting progressively worse as frequency rises. For a 2in driver, it will start at about 6.75KHz. And so on. You could Eq the general trend ~flat, & hope you won't notice the nulls / roughness in the response. The brain is a remarkable thing & can filter some of this out on-axis, but off-axis it's likely to sound very phasey.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 12:57 PM   #6
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my experience ?

never built one.

I heard a 3 way with 3' line of 1/2" tweeters and didn't like it (20' away).
The guitar seemed 3' tall !!!!!!!!
bothersome to me but not to many.
Panels now set me off too with their tall sound.


My favorite article to reference is the kuze array 32 x 2" tang bands

http://www.partsexpress.com/projects.../Kuze3201.html

"Just for informational purposes, the frequency response without smoothing. The jagged response that begins at 5K and worsens at higher frequencies is result of comb filtering, a very real measured problem. The step response of the system--note the single large step. This shows good phase coherency within the speaker. Unfortunately, the jagged nature of the step reflects the different arrival times of the impulse from varying driver distances......Several people noted that the high-frequency reproduction lacked some "life" and "air". This could be attributed to the comb filtering problems that definitely were occurring."

The brain hears a smear due to the different arrival times.

"Here Dmitry subjectivly describes the effect:
"I added 2 more speakers and confirmed what I have already heard with 4-element array: high-frequency roll-off."

here is what I think the holy grail for a full range driver array (no crossovers)
http://www.geocities.com/dmitrynizh/labaffles.htm

some say that comb filtering is untrue
http://www.ids25.com/

Linkwitz on the pipe dreams
" Their sound is big and close up. Like watching Patricia Barber's lips move on a large movie screen."
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/design_of_loudspeakers.htm

I like this one here.........
see here in frame #12
http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10817
"it did quite well. As soon as you stood up, though, the soundstage collapsed completely."

I thought it would sound tall (as in mouth is a few feet tall) but was assured by maker
"My speakers never seem tall, if I understand what you're saying."

but

only 1 sweet spot where sound is good.
Don't be too close or too far, and if you slouch your highs vanish.
and a bunch of 2-3" drivers (even a 6.5") will sound blurry on my music (gorillaz) unless crossed to a 12 near 200hz.

My opinion, your mileage may vary.

Norman
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Old 3rd September 2008, 12:58 PM   #7
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dang it scott !!!!!!!!!

ya snuck in while I was typing !!!!!!!!!!!

lol,

I've got to work on writing shorter answers.

Norman
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Old 7th September 2008, 03:33 AM   #8
MPM is offline MPM  United States
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Those remind me of the seventh veil speakers, except larger.
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Old 7th September 2008, 10:53 AM   #9
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I believe 7th veil is out of business.

I can't find reviews (i have some somewhere) online nor website

Seems that tricky enclosure was costly to make (driving price up).
similar to this but taller and jagged internal spikes.
http://audiorevelation.com/cre/produ...products_id=80

8 bandors aren't exactly cheap let alone making pretty enclosures.

7th veil had said it was the only enclosure that came close to open baffle mids clarity.

Otherwise at a lower price point, I think they could have worked.
They came with a bass module I think.

Then again I've seen some nice speakers get fabulous reviews and still go under (galante rhapsode, nice coax using maybe radians)
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...1/rhapsody.htm
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...lanteaudio.htm

Norman
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Old 7th September 2008, 12:05 PM   #10
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IIRC 7th Veil went belly up at the end of last year, unfortunately (always sad to see that sort of thing happen). Steve, the bloke who owned it, is still a memeber here, but hasn't posted for a couple of years. They did indeed come with a bass module -see attached. I think they intended a version with 8 drivers; whether that ever emerged or not as a production cabinet I don't know. A big problem is the price of Bandor / Jordan drivers of course; production runs are always short, so no economies of scale working in favour of lower pricing, and to use Jordan units as an example, they cost literally double in the UK what they do in the North Americas. That cabinet, if they were build out of layers of ply like that, would have been hellish expensive too, even at trade-prices, you're not kidding about that. Lots of waste material too.

Either way, I'm not sold on the notion of 8 of them per cabinet -that's getting into the realms of going out & looking for trouble IMO, exacerbating the potential lobing issues, expecially off-axis, unless you go for a focused array.

Nearfield arrays in themselves, don't really sound 'tall' per se, or at least, not to my way of thinking, providing you actually stay within the nearfield. It's just a case that, with a well designed one at any rate, the sound doesn't change, whatever height you happen to listen at (say, if you stand up). So they're a bit like a ruddy great big set of headphones in that respect. The actual scale of the sound produced does take a bit of getting used to though. A curved / focused array acts like a point source in that it has a vertical sweet-spot & the sound will change if you move.

Eq-ing the bass up as Roger Russell does should make an array of small units quite good even in the LF, assuming a large number are used, given their considerable total radiating CSA, although using so many instantly causes problems elsewhere as we both know -no free lunches in audio, sadly.
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