Heres a few that should sound every bit as good as your 0.8 watter and open the door to more driver choices..
http://www.mcalisteraudio.com/
http://decware.com/
http://www.vaughnaudio.com/ <-- only one choice at this time..
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/glow/one.html<--cheap, and people are really digging it..
http://stereomojo.com/McAlister review/McAlister_review.htm <--this last one has me thinking I'd like to trade in my Decware and get it, 75 excellent watts would be nice to have instead of just 6.. I'd like to see the warranty way more than just a year though...
Dave
http://www.mcalisteraudio.com/
http://decware.com/
http://www.vaughnaudio.com/ <-- only one choice at this time..
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/glow/one.html<--cheap, and people are really digging it..
http://stereomojo.com/McAlister review/McAlister_review.htm <--this last one has me thinking I'd like to trade in my Decware and get it, 75 excellent watts would be nice to have instead of just 6.. I'd like to see the warranty way more than just a year though...
Dave
GO BIG!
The Great Plains 604-8H-II Two-Way Studio Monitor Loudspeaker System is getting rave reviews. There are several very clever horns that have been designed recently specifically for the GPA 604 that are discussed on the main DIY sites.
Lambda Acoustics = Acoustic Elegance also has a thread here on a future field coil 15" that should be 100 db/watt efficient. This plus a Geddes waveguide continue to look like the Holy Grail of high efficiency to many on this site.
=================
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/downloads/604_8H_II.pdf
604-8H-II Two-Way Studio Monitor Loudspeaker System
Frequency Response: 30 Hz - 20 kHz
Power Handling: 100 watts continuous pink noise from
60 Hz - 20 kHz, AES method.
Pressure Sensitivity: 99 dB SPL (1 watt,500 Hz - 3 kHz, re:
20ìPa).
Minimum Impedance: 8 ohms
Input Connections: Spring-loaded push terminals.
Components: 16-inch, high efficiency, low-frequency
driver with a coaxially mounted, 1-inch highfrequency
compression driver and
Mantaray™ horn.
Standard Crossover
Network (optional): Full-section with 1,500 Hz crossover
frequency, 12 dB per octave slope for the
low frequencies, and 18 dB per octave for the
high frequencies.
The Great Plains 604-8H-II Two-Way Studio Monitor Loudspeaker System is getting rave reviews. There are several very clever horns that have been designed recently specifically for the GPA 604 that are discussed on the main DIY sites.
Lambda Acoustics = Acoustic Elegance also has a thread here on a future field coil 15" that should be 100 db/watt efficient. This plus a Geddes waveguide continue to look like the Holy Grail of high efficiency to many on this site.
=================
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/downloads/604_8H_II.pdf
604-8H-II Two-Way Studio Monitor Loudspeaker System
Frequency Response: 30 Hz - 20 kHz
Power Handling: 100 watts continuous pink noise from
60 Hz - 20 kHz, AES method.
Pressure Sensitivity: 99 dB SPL (1 watt,500 Hz - 3 kHz, re:
20ìPa).
Minimum Impedance: 8 ohms
Input Connections: Spring-loaded push terminals.
Components: 16-inch, high efficiency, low-frequency
driver with a coaxially mounted, 1-inch highfrequency
compression driver and
Mantaray™ horn.
Standard Crossover
Network (optional): Full-section with 1,500 Hz crossover
frequency, 12 dB per octave slope for the
low frequencies, and 18 dB per octave for the
high frequencies.
I wouldn't get those great plain's drivers...............
If I spent $1,800 on drivers and another $1,000 on cabinets, I'd swear they were great too. I'd have to, or I'd cry the rest of my days.
And not even a frequency response graph ?
aluminum diaphragm ? Mylar would be better...........
Wow, another 2 way.
I know coaxes are considered full range drivers, but I don't think that way.
Full range drivers have the benefit of a point source and the highs / lows all from the same driver (almost in phase anyway).
I'd even seen a 2 way time aligned speaker get better marks than a full range driver (fostex fe126e).
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hornshoppe2/thehorn.html
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/gma2/callisto.html
I'd even allow a wide bander, such as a driver running from 200hz to 7khz even.......................
Or even the phy stuff (tweeter crossed way high)
http://www.toneimports.com/auditorium23/a23Solovox.html
But a non time aligned coaxial ?
I wouldn't.
crossing a 16" driver to a 1" compression driver ?
like that hard horn sound ?
thank the 10:1 compression ratio
A smooth, relaxed sounding compression driver would be the community vhf100 with 4:1 ratio.
Rule of thumb based on dispersion is to cross a 15 at 800hz.
Or even cross a 12" at 1.2khz because the 12" is 90 degree dispersion there.
They are crossing a 16 at 1.5khz
How much detail do you think a 16" can do, especially from1khz-1.5khz ?
The horn is so small, I'd want cross at least at 2khz.
And I prefer horns that don't echo much.
Bi-Radials are a good start to a no echo horn (think jbl 2344,2342).
Or even these............
http://stores.ebay.com/Stereo-Lab
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/54-580
Cd horns are good because there isn't much pinching.
The response looks like the plane wave tube response.
The on axis response looks like the off axis.
Meaning you can eq it flat and it is flat in the far and near field.
Most horns you eq it flat far field and you'll shave your eyebrows off nearfield.
This is what they should be listening to.
A time aligned coaxial.
check out page 2
the square waves would be more square if the tweeter went higher in frequency
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vintage JBL-UREI Electronics/UREI-813.pdf
http://www.lionfox.com/recordingstudios/aUrei813b.jpg
I still believe a full range driver is better than even a "time aligned 6db slanted baffle" such as thiel or even vandersteen.
There's just some magic that happens when the driver is hooked directly to the amp.
Norman
If I spent $1,800 on drivers and another $1,000 on cabinets, I'd swear they were great too. I'd have to, or I'd cry the rest of my days.
And not even a frequency response graph ?
aluminum diaphragm ? Mylar would be better...........
Wow, another 2 way.
I know coaxes are considered full range drivers, but I don't think that way.
Full range drivers have the benefit of a point source and the highs / lows all from the same driver (almost in phase anyway).
I'd even seen a 2 way time aligned speaker get better marks than a full range driver (fostex fe126e).
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hornshoppe2/thehorn.html
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/gma2/callisto.html
I'd even allow a wide bander, such as a driver running from 200hz to 7khz even.......................
Or even the phy stuff (tweeter crossed way high)
http://www.toneimports.com/auditorium23/a23Solovox.html
But a non time aligned coaxial ?
I wouldn't.
crossing a 16" driver to a 1" compression driver ?
like that hard horn sound ?
thank the 10:1 compression ratio
A smooth, relaxed sounding compression driver would be the community vhf100 with 4:1 ratio.
Rule of thumb based on dispersion is to cross a 15 at 800hz.
Or even cross a 12" at 1.2khz because the 12" is 90 degree dispersion there.
They are crossing a 16 at 1.5khz
How much detail do you think a 16" can do, especially from1khz-1.5khz ?
The horn is so small, I'd want cross at least at 2khz.
And I prefer horns that don't echo much.
Bi-Radials are a good start to a no echo horn (think jbl 2344,2342).
Or even these............
http://stores.ebay.com/Stereo-Lab
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/54-580
Cd horns are good because there isn't much pinching.
The response looks like the plane wave tube response.
The on axis response looks like the off axis.
Meaning you can eq it flat and it is flat in the far and near field.
Most horns you eq it flat far field and you'll shave your eyebrows off nearfield.
This is what they should be listening to.
A time aligned coaxial.
check out page 2
the square waves would be more square if the tweeter went higher in frequency
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vintage JBL-UREI Electronics/UREI-813.pdf
http://www.lionfox.com/recordingstudios/aUrei813b.jpg
I still believe a full range driver is better than even a "time aligned 6db slanted baffle" such as thiel or even vandersteen.
There's just some magic that happens when the driver is hooked directly to the amp.
Norman
>>> Rule of thumb based on dispersion is to cross a 15 at 800hz.
Or even cross a 12" at 1.2khz because the 12" is 90 degree dispersion there.
Is that rule broken on audiophile systems? Does Great Plains follow them? It looks like most pro audio systems use that rule. I was wondering if it applied to audiophile systems.
Or even cross a 12" at 1.2khz because the 12" is 90 degree dispersion there.
Is that rule broken on audiophile systems? Does Great Plains follow them? It looks like most pro audio systems use that rule. I was wondering if it applied to audiophile systems.
AFAIK, the GPA driver is actually a newly manufactured Altec 604, for which they purchased the original tooling. Which means that it's a drive unit that many regard as one of the greatest (if not the greatest) of all time. Especially with the Mantaray CD horn that the late models had.
http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net/Duplex.html
That said, some performance graphs certainly would be welcome.
http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net/Duplex.html
That said, some performance graphs certainly would be welcome.
Scottmoose
true, many love the 604.
Too bad that many of the old ones just disintegrate as they get old.
It's not my cup of tea.
I'm just tired of everyone praising them.
Similar to bose owners that love their stuff because they've never heard anything better. "My buddy has some and I like his, so I want one."
Some stuff is good so please no flames, but price to quality I find lacking.
I'm also sad that the world beats a path to who can market the better mousetrap instead of building a better one.
I know a little about PA, the crossover point is usually pushed high for power handling purposes. Crossing a 1" driver at 2khz (esp at 24db) takes a bunch more power before damage than crossing at 1khz. Don't get me wrong, most 2 ways at movie theaters cross at 500hz to a 2" driver, and people do it.
When crossing a 15 too high, the problem is the 2 way now has a dispersion pattern of a pyramid sitting on a pyramid. The tweet blasts at 90-180 degrees while the poor 15 has only 30 degrees at the crossover. That off axis response looks like what you see at the listening position after the sound bounces around the room a few times.
Ideally the dispersion pattern matches at the crossover point.
Think the jbl 4430 crossing a 15 to a 100 x 100 degree dispersion horn at 800hz I think.
To me audiophile stuff should cross away from 2khz (where many cones/domes cross). But that is not easy. Not many woofs go really high and not many tweeters go really low, hence the birth of the 3 way. A driver is usually breaking up (non pistonic) at the upper end of its response. Some drivers break up better than others.
Or even the running of the jx92s with the aurum cantus ribbon tweeter which adds some crisp and improves dispersion. Most every responder preferred the jordan with ribbon over just the jordan.
I ran a pioneer b20 8" wide open (with eq), sitting 8' away if you moved 2' to the left or right, there were no highs. I crossed an 8" b20 to a time aligned piezo at 5khz and loved it. Problem is that was a while ago and I've gotten more discerning since then. Now I find the crossover close to unlistenable. Would I still praise it now? I'll have to revisit it to see.
Norman
true, many love the 604.
Too bad that many of the old ones just disintegrate as they get old.
It's not my cup of tea.
I'm just tired of everyone praising them.
Similar to bose owners that love their stuff because they've never heard anything better. "My buddy has some and I like his, so I want one."
Some stuff is good so please no flames, but price to quality I find lacking.
I'm also sad that the world beats a path to who can market the better mousetrap instead of building a better one.
I know a little about PA, the crossover point is usually pushed high for power handling purposes. Crossing a 1" driver at 2khz (esp at 24db) takes a bunch more power before damage than crossing at 1khz. Don't get me wrong, most 2 ways at movie theaters cross at 500hz to a 2" driver, and people do it.
When crossing a 15 too high, the problem is the 2 way now has a dispersion pattern of a pyramid sitting on a pyramid. The tweet blasts at 90-180 degrees while the poor 15 has only 30 degrees at the crossover. That off axis response looks like what you see at the listening position after the sound bounces around the room a few times.
Ideally the dispersion pattern matches at the crossover point.
Think the jbl 4430 crossing a 15 to a 100 x 100 degree dispersion horn at 800hz I think.
To me audiophile stuff should cross away from 2khz (where many cones/domes cross). But that is not easy. Not many woofs go really high and not many tweeters go really low, hence the birth of the 3 way. A driver is usually breaking up (non pistonic) at the upper end of its response. Some drivers break up better than others.
Or even the running of the jx92s with the aurum cantus ribbon tweeter which adds some crisp and improves dispersion. Most every responder preferred the jordan with ribbon over just the jordan.
I ran a pioneer b20 8" wide open (with eq), sitting 8' away if you moved 2' to the left or right, there were no highs. I crossed an 8" b20 to a time aligned piezo at 5khz and loved it. Problem is that was a while ago and I've gotten more discerning since then. Now I find the crossover close to unlistenable. Would I still praise it now? I'll have to revisit it to see.
Norman
norman bates said:
Great Plains Audio 604-8H-III frequency graph
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/ubb/get_topic/f/3729/t/3779
Personally, I only build 3-way dipoles using a midrange that can cover 80-1,500+ Hz human voice. 95db/watt seems to get the best combination of sound quality and dynamics.
Attachments
Looks about 1/3 octave. Typical Altec quality. I like 'em. Ever since I first heard / saw a 604 a year or so back, I liked it. People praise it, and it's a classic for a good reason -that they've heard a lot of other options, and it still comes out favourably. I don't think the BO$£ analogy is particularly apt in this case, if you'll forgive me for disagreeing with you. Sure, there'll be a few sheep around who can't / won't think for themselves; there always are. But the 604's reputation wasn't made by them. It's certainly far from perfect, nor to all tastes, but then again, what is?
For myself, I don't really like XOs in the midband as a rule either; ~I favour 500Hz as the least evil point if they must be used in that BW. The 604's no exception, but I could live with it, if I had the money for a pair, once the XO was properly sorted out (it's easy to mess up & leave them sounding like a cheap car sub with a dentists drill attached).
Re price to quality, I reckon it depends on how you define either as we all have our different ways of assessing things. FWIW, I don't know exactly how much 604s went for when they were new, but I suspect their current price relative to average income is very favourable compared to the originals a few decades back. Compared to some very pricy modern drivers, I'd say they don't fare too badly at all. YMMV as ever though. It all comes back to what we like, can live with, and afford.
For myself, I don't really like XOs in the midband as a rule either; ~I favour 500Hz as the least evil point if they must be used in that BW. The 604's no exception, but I could live with it, if I had the money for a pair, once the XO was properly sorted out (it's easy to mess up & leave them sounding like a cheap car sub with a dentists drill attached).
Re price to quality, I reckon it depends on how you define either as we all have our different ways of assessing things. FWIW, I don't know exactly how much 604s went for when they were new, but I suspect their current price relative to average income is very favourable compared to the originals a few decades back. Compared to some very pricy modern drivers, I'd say they don't fare too badly at all. YMMV as ever though. It all comes back to what we like, can live with, and afford.
Yes with FR driver: "no high. no lows, must be....."Scottmoose said:Ooooh.
Yeah, it's a doddle to come up with a bad / mediocre implementation of FR units, but to design a decent system with them, that circumvents many of their limitations, is rarely an easy task. All drivers present their own challenges / requirements.
Well, they're certainly better regarded as large tweeters or very wide band midrange units; true enough. However, plenty can get up, unsupported, sufficiently high & with sufficient quality, to satisfy a large percentage of people, given that their HF hearing isn't great anyway. Hell, I can still hear up to 20KHz & frankly, I'm not all that bothered if I don't get the harmonics over ~14KHz reproduced, given that it usually just gives me a pounding headache anyway after an hour or so. How high one of these goes naturally depends on the driver, but they typically span the gamut of making ~4KHz - 20KHz or more, as you undoubtedly know. And loaded correctly, plenty can provide a good 40Hz or lower. So in fact they do, or can, have both adequate LF & HF for many types of music, particularly acoustic.
Where they aren't as effective as a large, well designed multiway setup is in handling large LF transient swings, but then, a BBC LS3/5a isn't exactly great in this respect either, so it's not exactly something exclusive to FR units. They seldom have as impressive a measured performance as most multiway setups either, but then, they don't suffer from some of the issues the latter can have, & pretty graphs aren't everything, given that our own hearing is anything but linear, so as per usual, it's back to which compromises you can live with to attain the desired advantages.
Whatever, such things have been discussed to death in the past & doubtless will in the future. From my POV, if someone doesn't like them, that's fair enough -everybody values different things. But I can't quite see any object in posting negative views of that nature on a part of a forum specifically dedicated to FR drivers.
Personally, I see value & merit in both approaches, depending on the person, their preferences / requirements, & the situation. Which is why I design, listen to & enjoy both types.
Where they aren't as effective as a large, well designed multiway setup is in handling large LF transient swings, but then, a BBC LS3/5a isn't exactly great in this respect either, so it's not exactly something exclusive to FR units. They seldom have as impressive a measured performance as most multiway setups either, but then, they don't suffer from some of the issues the latter can have, & pretty graphs aren't everything, given that our own hearing is anything but linear, so as per usual, it's back to which compromises you can live with to attain the desired advantages.
Whatever, such things have been discussed to death in the past & doubtless will in the future. From my POV, if someone doesn't like them, that's fair enough -everybody values different things. But I can't quite see any object in posting negative views of that nature on a part of a forum specifically dedicated to FR drivers.
Personally, I see value & merit in both approaches, depending on the person, their preferences / requirements, & the situation. Which is why I design, listen to & enjoy both types.
Yeah, I was thinking that, tho decided to give it a miss based on the considerable efforts taken by a lot of DIYers in trying to take some zing out of them (lots of x-over work) and some comments raise some concern that their presentation may not be to MY liking. I'd still love to hear them, but I think there may be speakers better suited to me at this stage. Hell, a Pi 4 in top spec with their wood horn and new x-over could well be a speaker more to my liking. Of course, none of these are true wide-rangers.
BTW, the new version 604 (III) with the Urei (?) horn 'should' be 'better' than the prevous version with the Mantaray.
Cheers
> Beside Fostex can you guys recommend any fullrange driver that has 100dB or more sensitivity ?
If $200 counts as "affordable" to you and a coaxial two-way as "full range", then the Beyma 12 CX might fill the bill. Claimed 104 Db sensitivity. http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma 12cx-1.htm
They also have a 10" and two 8" coaxial models, I think with lower sensitivity.
One way to get good lower frequency performance without demanding too much power is a quasi-butterworth 5 alignment. See http://sound.westhost.com/qb5align.htm. I'd consider that for any driver you consider.
I've done the math for the Beyma 12 with qb5 and it looks good to me. But I plan to use a sub and to have what I consider a small amp, 50 W per channel. Might not work for you.
If $200 counts as "affordable" to you and a coaxial two-way as "full range", then the Beyma 12 CX might fill the bill. Claimed 104 Db sensitivity. http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma 12cx-1.htm
They also have a 10" and two 8" coaxial models, I think with lower sensitivity.
One way to get good lower frequency performance without demanding too much power is a quasi-butterworth 5 alignment. See http://sound.westhost.com/qb5align.htm. I'd consider that for any driver you consider.
I've done the math for the Beyma 12 with qb5 and it looks good to me. But I plan to use a sub and to have what I consider a small amp, 50 W per channel. Might not work for you.
affordable full range? no doubt it would be Audio Nirvana.
Audio Nirvana is the most affordable full range driver near 100db efficiency. they make about 8 models i believe ranging from 6.5' to 12". The most expensive driver is the 12" cast frame and i believe i paid about 250.00 plus shipping for the pair. I'm currently building the cabinets and will have them working in short order. Let me just say this. In an undersized cardboard box, the quality of this driver exceeds many over $5000.00. I'll be happy to post pics and a review when i'm done building the cabinets to specification.
goto: www.commonsenseaudio.com to see many reviews by others, pics, and specifications. Ordering is also available through that page.... no i'm not and advertiser, nor working for them. Like many of you, i'm enthusiastic about great audio and it is my opinion you can't get better sound for the money by a long shot.
Audio Nirvana is the most affordable full range driver near 100db efficiency. they make about 8 models i believe ranging from 6.5' to 12". The most expensive driver is the 12" cast frame and i believe i paid about 250.00 plus shipping for the pair. I'm currently building the cabinets and will have them working in short order. Let me just say this. In an undersized cardboard box, the quality of this driver exceeds many over $5000.00. I'll be happy to post pics and a review when i'm done building the cabinets to specification.
goto: www.commonsenseaudio.com to see many reviews by others, pics, and specifications. Ordering is also available through that page.... no i'm not and advertiser, nor working for them. Like many of you, i'm enthusiastic about great audio and it is my opinion you can't get better sound for the money by a long shot.
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