Hello,
I am trying to put together a simple 2 channel audiophile setup for a small listening room environment.
As such, the A126 back loaded horn design appears a good choice and materials would cost about $150 - 170 and it would be easy for me to build them. On the other hand, I could also buy a pair of used Bowers & Wilkins DM 302, 303 bookshelf speakers for about the same price or decent used pro studio monitors (non powered) for $200-300. Going this route would require less space and have a pretty flat response.
I do not have an amplifier yet, but perhaps an older 2 channel dynamic solid state amp with about 50 watts X 2 would work, i.e. NAD, Marantz, Yamaha, or Denon for about $100. I do not want to use tube amps at this point.
I enjoy building, but also understand it is difficult to improve upon a well engineered design (Tannoy, B & W, JBL Pro, Dynaudio, etc.) given that the cost of buying discounted used gear can be the same as material cost for DIY designs, unless the situation calls for something radical! For a reference guide, I went to a local Guitar center and listened to some of their monitors and also went to a posh audiophile store for some listening test of bookshelf designs. It is hard to compare without being in the same room with the same source signal. Can anyone who has listened to various setups make a comment here?
I am trying to put together a simple 2 channel audiophile setup for a small listening room environment.
As such, the A126 back loaded horn design appears a good choice and materials would cost about $150 - 170 and it would be easy for me to build them. On the other hand, I could also buy a pair of used Bowers & Wilkins DM 302, 303 bookshelf speakers for about the same price or decent used pro studio monitors (non powered) for $200-300. Going this route would require less space and have a pretty flat response.
I do not have an amplifier yet, but perhaps an older 2 channel dynamic solid state amp with about 50 watts X 2 would work, i.e. NAD, Marantz, Yamaha, or Denon for about $100. I do not want to use tube amps at this point.
I enjoy building, but also understand it is difficult to improve upon a well engineered design (Tannoy, B & W, JBL Pro, Dynaudio, etc.) given that the cost of buying discounted used gear can be the same as material cost for DIY designs, unless the situation calls for something radical! For a reference guide, I went to a local Guitar center and listened to some of their monitors and also went to a posh audiophile store for some listening test of bookshelf designs. It is hard to compare without being in the same room with the same source signal. Can anyone who has listened to various setups make a comment here?
Under a certain volume, a well-built full range speaker can be very good at coherence, tone correctness, detail, spacial info... etc. If you can live with this limit, then it's a very good choice. (so I recommend to friends) Just don't expect the that kind of senses of full-size, live level, physical events.
Studio monitors are usually more consistent over a wider volume range -- behaving better then most fullrangers in higher level. However you'd lose some coherence and the feeling of "as one" comparing to good fullrangers.
Studio monitors are usually more consistent over a wider volume range -- behaving better then most fullrangers in higher level. However you'd lose some coherence and the feeling of "as one" comparing to good fullrangers.
I listened to smallish nearfield studio monitors for years (in studios no less) and they are a tool for geting work done. A good monitor is neither pleasing nor annoying -- definitely not designed with hours of listening pleasure as their primary purpose.
However, you might find some which sound incredibly pleasing. I had a pair of the very first Mackie monitors way back (early 1990's) and got rid of them because they had a gorgeous plump bass (great for listening, bad for monitoring).
A flat response is not the be-all, end-all. If you're looking for a shortcut, or quick results, I don't think a BLH is the way. If you like a challenge, and want to hear a sound that's not available in a typical store, and you listen to music that is a suitable match, do the BLH.
CLS, you are spot-on, my friend. With the right music, at the right volume, within their limitations, they are magical. I have seen people be blown away, and I've seen people be unimpressed. It all depends on what you like!
edit: changed Alesis to Mackie - they were Mackie, sorry!
However, you might find some which sound incredibly pleasing. I had a pair of the very first Mackie monitors way back (early 1990's) and got rid of them because they had a gorgeous plump bass (great for listening, bad for monitoring).
A flat response is not the be-all, end-all. If you're looking for a shortcut, or quick results, I don't think a BLH is the way. If you like a challenge, and want to hear a sound that's not available in a typical store, and you listen to music that is a suitable match, do the BLH.
CLS, you are spot-on, my friend. With the right music, at the right volume, within their limitations, they are magical. I have seen people be blown away, and I've seen people be unimpressed. It all depends on what you like!
edit: changed Alesis to Mackie - they were Mackie, sorry!
schn0354 said:
There's much to be said for this approach and if you choose well a consumer two way will match/beat all but the most $esoteric$ 'FR' drivers in huge cabs. The DM303 is one of the better ones IMO (with 'better' being relative), though like most of the 'breed' I've found them to need some BSC to sound tonally balanced, especially if no sub system is used: http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/bw_dm303.htm http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/bw_dm303/
The downside of course is much reduced efficiency/dynamic headroom, so at best they are relegated to being near-field monitors (< 1 m listening distance) if you have enough 'squeaky clean' power available and at worst limited to Muzak duty if not. Then again, with rare exception this applies to all 'FR' drivers, so 'pick your poison'.
Bottom line, at your budget level, true 'audiophile' SQ over a wide BW is going to be hard to come by.
GM
Out of experience I would nit diss all monitors...
My dad once came home from an auction with a set of QLN model one monitors, these babies have a patented crossover and were displayed at CES in Chicago in 1981. These still to me remain almost a reference loudspeaker, provided you had the amp to drive the totaly sealed boxes.
These babies were big ticket items....
http://www.qln.se/index2.php3?page=speaker_signature&submenu=speakers
here is the modern day descendant....
Sadly the KEF drivers have not handled a decade's storage too well and it is now relegated as a future restoration project.
You people inn Sweden should be proud of this one.
My dad once came home from an auction with a set of QLN model one monitors, these babies have a patented crossover and were displayed at CES in Chicago in 1981. These still to me remain almost a reference loudspeaker, provided you had the amp to drive the totaly sealed boxes.
These babies were big ticket items....
http://www.qln.se/index2.php3?page=speaker_signature&submenu=speakers
here is the modern day descendant....
Sadly the KEF drivers have not handled a decade's storage too well and it is now relegated as a future restoration project.
You people inn Sweden should be proud of this one.
Nordic said:
Nor would I. My only thought is that you aren't likely to find great-sounding speakers (or BLH's!) used as nearfield monitors in a recording studio, except maybe to impress artists and managers (but not producers and engineers, who generally listen to something mediocre but trustworthy).
GM said:
Hi GM, for me at least, by the late 1980's, the record companies had pushed most recording into smaller, cheaper studios for laying down tracks, and then the final mix would be done in 4, at most 8 hours per song at a larger, fancier studio with an automated mixing console (and bigger monitoring options). In the smaller studios, nearfield was the only serious monitoring available. Not surprising that the dynamic range eventually got squashed out of records.
Anyway, schn0354, I didn't mean to say don't buy monitors -- buy whatever sounds good to you!
schn0354 said:
For a small listening room if you can use the corners, the fe108ez in a Bib is pretty nice, or the 126 if wanted... The Fonken 127 enclosure will work well also... I guess it all depends if you'd rather have the fun and pride of making something yourself or buying something already made etc.. Dave
rjbond3rd said:
True, and today it's becoming more common for lowest-common-denominator 'boom-box' and/or ipod doc speakers to be used in the final mix down to ensure its target audience gets a suitably compressed recording.
Unfortunately, gone is the golden era of studio monitors when Harry O's RCA 15" 'FR' driven BL corner horn ruled in the major studios before JBL (the man) designed Altec's duplex that did it as good/better overall in a wall mounted ducted port reflex cab since at the time it didn't need the BLH's extra octave.
GM
I have a pair of B&W speakers (not sure the model but they look like they have a 7 inch woofer and a dome tweeter in a black ported box) and they have no life at all. Everything sounds dull thru these (flat?) and they need juice to play loudly. They have been in storage since my BIBs moved in. In fact, the Pioneer B20/Piezo also sound better in a similar sized sealed box IMO. Personally, i would pass on the B&W - but many like this type of sound (no personality). The Dynaudio monitors look like quality speakers but having used thier woofers and tweeters years ago when available to DIY community, i was never impressed with them preferring cheaper Morel tweeters and more efficient woofers from a handful of manufacturers. If you buy monitors from B&W or Dynaudio you will need power to bring the music to life - like 200 watts or more per channel, IMO. Using them with a Yamaha reciever now will allow you an upgrade path to better amps in the future. Just my opinion based on my experience. You will not get bad sound with any of the above tho, only different sound. As GM said, pick your poison.
Well, everyone who has replied is confirming my suspicions. When I listened to a few $300-500 active studio monitors (Dynaudio BM5A, KRK, Yamaha, etc.) in the store, they all sounded very good close up. Most cover a wide range of 70 Hz to 20 KHz +/-3dB in a small size. Unfortunately, they indeed lack dynamics compared to the FE126E drivers that I am experimenting with at the moment. I really like the sensitivity, midrange, and coherency on this driver even when paired with a low power amp! They can go quite loud, but run out of excursion quickly if truly used full range. Less than 200 Hz and the FE126 starts to struggle. Fortunately, it seems to have little audible distortion beyond the 0.3 mm Xmax. It does seem somewhat "thin" sounding at the moment though.
I have never heard a full range back loaded horn and remain skeptical. The a126 design seems worth the build. I have built custom heirloom quality studio furniture before, so the project shouldn't be too much of a challenge. The glue-up should be easier if rabbit joints are used in the construction. I may use a template and a template router bit so channels in each outer panel align. Eventually, the plan is to use a subwoofer with each channel. Is it more difficult to do this with back loaded horns?
I have never heard a full range back loaded horn and remain skeptical. The a126 design seems worth the build. I have built custom heirloom quality studio furniture before, so the project shouldn't be too much of a challenge. The glue-up should be easier if rabbit joints are used in the construction. I may use a template and a template router bit so channels in each outer panel align. Eventually, the plan is to use a subwoofer with each channel. Is it more difficult to do this with back loaded horns?
schn0354 said:
The 126 your playing with will perform much different in a blh than what your experiencing now.. If you want to hear a full range bhl in a quick easy build then slap a BIB together and check it out. For the most refined and accurate then the A126 is the way to go... I don't think you'll be unhappy with either of those cabs especially in a small room...
Dave
BIB Calculator here:
http://www.zillaaudio.com/bib-calculator.htm
I would build a BIB, save the money on the monitors and enjoy better sound.
Godzilla
http://www.zillaaudio.com/bib-calculator.htm
I would build a BIB, save the money on the monitors and enjoy better sound.
Godzilla
I have made a couple of full-rangers now, and I am beginning to conclude that they are best when supported with a sub.
But then I wonder - does it make sense to put a lot of effort into making a complex box to support FR's bass output if you plan to cross to a sub down low anyway? If you're gonna put up a sub, maybe it's best to just have a simple sealed box? Or something not-too-complex to cover the 100-200 hz area? I'm not sure how the balance of design changes if you've a sub in mind.
If you've got the space, ability, time and materials build yourself a big, cool box. Aengus' are certainly drop dead gorgeous! But now that I've got a sub to go with my big FR cabinets, I have to wonder if all that extra wood is rendered redundant by my sub.
Nelson Pass is supposedly preparing a paper about FR in sealed cab + Sub that I look forward to reading...
Once again, Aengus' build: glorious, stunning.
But then I wonder - does it make sense to put a lot of effort into making a complex box to support FR's bass output if you plan to cross to a sub down low anyway? If you're gonna put up a sub, maybe it's best to just have a simple sealed box? Or something not-too-complex to cover the 100-200 hz area? I'm not sure how the balance of design changes if you've a sub in mind.
If you've got the space, ability, time and materials build yourself a big, cool box. Aengus' are certainly drop dead gorgeous! But now that I've got a sub to go with my big FR cabinets, I have to wonder if all that extra wood is rendered redundant by my sub.
Nelson Pass is supposedly preparing a paper about FR in sealed cab + Sub that I look forward to reading...
Once again, Aengus' build: glorious, stunning.
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