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Old 12th August 2008, 03:51 PM   #21
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>>> But then I wonder - does it make sense to put a lot of effort into making a complex box to support FR's bass output if you plan to cross to a sub down low anyway? If you're gonna put up a sub, maybe it's best to just have a simple sealed box? Or something not-too-complex to cover the 100-200 hz area?

Hi! This a great question IMO. Having large cabinets for fullrange drivers only to add another large cabinet(s) as a subwoofer might just take up space without providing any performance advantage.

After considerable listening and enjoying fullrange driver designs for years I find them to be totally engaging and a wonderful way to enjoy music at home. Whether it’s large BIBs or small ported boxes there is a magic with fullrange drivers most multi-way designs cannot match – especially in the midrange. So why build large cabinets? Because these cabinets extend low frequencies as well as support the lower midrange frequencies providing a nice full sound that’s non-fatiguing, mellow and easy to enjoy for long listening sessions. It’s the lower midrange support these cabinets provide that make fullrange drivers sound not just good, but incredibly good.

Without that lower midrange fullness, fullrange drivers oftentimes sound thin. So putting them into sealed boxes will certainly thin out their sound. The question that needs to be answered is if adding an appropriately designed subwoofer to a smaller sealed cabinet will yield the same, better or worse performance than a larger cabinet. I suspect the answer will be ‘sometimes’ it works and ‘sometimes’ it doesn’t work as well. It will depend on the drivers. I am curious about the results.

There are always tradeoffs. Adding a subwoofer will produce deeper, more powerful bass. But I wonder if the sealed cabinet plus subwoofer approach will be appropriate and correct for many of the drivers we love to listen to.

I listen to my large BIB cabinets with a powered subwoofer. In fact, I am in the process of building an even larger one. That’s because I want deeper bass. But I do not want to alter the great lower midrange my BIBs provide. Putting the 165k into smaller cabinets resulted in a sound that was too thin for my taste so I will keep them in the larger cabinets. But I wonder if many of us decide to go with smaller cabinets and added subwoofers if we should consider cabinets that are smaller but result in that fuller midbass sound that makes larger back horn cabinets sound so good? Maybe we should consider mini BIBs or mini back horns that support midbass and drop off rapidly below 100 or 150hz? Then add the sub.

The pictures of Harvey’s in this thread are so beautiful. They certainly have a place in a great audio system with or without a subwoofer. I’m sure from bass to treble these sound great. Adding a subwoofer will improve the overall sound by adding more powerful, deeper bass. But if a sub is not an option, then these are an elegant way to enjoy music.
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Old 12th August 2008, 04:41 PM   #22
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I'll cast my vote with the BIB.

The original poster here says he hasn't heard a backhorn. This will be a worthwhile and simple project to see if you want to be in the club.

With the BIB it's easy to walk up to it and hear those mellow low registers exiting from the mouth and go "ahhh."

With baseboard heating and whatnot, I am moving toward a build
that is smaller (from the BIB calculator) and a 50 cent driver -- yes 50 cent 4 " from Pioneer) and up on a custom stand to get it tight to the wall. It's a shop setup and I have the bib in mains as well in my living space using FE127e.

What that 50 cent speaker is in now is an elephant of a BIB cabinet
for what the speaker can do. Still those low piano notes have a nice satisfying ring.

Materials can be virtually anything but the early wisdom was to
make the front baffle, slant and back (plus bottom) of a material like particle board and the end panels of clear wood or plywood or in my case pine glue-up shelving.
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Old 12th August 2008, 05:00 PM   #23
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>>> Still those low piano notes have a nice satisfying ring.

BIBs do piano really well. When i listen at my office to the Pioneer/Piezo and then go home to the BIBs the piano really comes to life. They capture the resonance and full body of piano - with or without the sub.
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Old 12th August 2008, 06:20 PM   #24
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With a suitable driver like the 126/127 the BIB improves immensely.

I wonder what has happened to some of those other BIB tweaks...
no action in the BIB thread lately.

However yesterday I bought some Dammar at the Hobby Lobby
and going to see what if any effect it has on a couple of my numerous Pioneer cheapies. I've never done these mods before. Prob'ly best to try it out in the summer with lots of ventilation.

If you're in a hurry, I read that the cones can be treated with a can of
AquaNet hair spray as well.




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Old 13th August 2008, 08:43 PM   #25
Aengus is offline Aengus  Canada
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Default Curved Harveys

For those who were interested, I've started a thread on the curved Harveys.

Regards.

Aengus
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Old 14th August 2008, 02:33 AM   #26
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I curently have B&W DM220s in my living room which I thought sounded pretty good, that is until my boss and I built a pair of frugel horns with fe126e s. I was blown away. The bass is absolutely incredible. I personally don't understand why anyone who as heard a rear loaded horn would ever even consider any other design. I used to work at a high end electronics store and I have heard alot of expensive speakers but nothing even came close to these. I never realized that bass could have such clean definition and total lack of decernable distortion. A rear loaded horn will never lack bass in a small room. Build the horns, you will not be disapointed I assure you. If you build them and you don't like them I'll buy them from you at $150 over your cost!!
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Old 14th August 2008, 05:21 AM   #27
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It is good to hear such positive feedback from someone who can make a relative comparison. Well, I think the build for the a126 design is going to be sooner than thought. In the next few weeks, I should start posting some pictures of construction, which are lacking on this forum for the mentioned design.
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Old 16th August 2008, 07:51 PM   #28
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at close range full range is the best option. It has the dynamic and detail of a top headphone yet great sound stage.
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Old 17th August 2008, 04:12 AM   #29
brsanko is offline brsanko  United States
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After the frugelhorns we then built some larger double horns featuring the fe206e s and they absolutely blew us away not only was the bass fuller and deeper but they completely filled our very large shop(i'm talking thirty foot ceilings here) with loud dynamic full beautiful music.
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