I understand this kit likes power, but to suggest a FR125 fore movie, I am shocked 
http://www.diycable.com/main/default.php?cPath=24_143&Cid=46c9e22d4c4d797a38234023f6cfbc2a
http://www.diycable.com/main/default.php?cPath=24_143&Cid=46c9e22d4c4d797a38234023f6cfbc2a
Blake,
I have to step out for a bit, but I would sincerely appreciate if you could give your reasoning for going with the AN's including whether perhaps:
1. You don't think I'd risk "overloading" the small room? (I'm afraid I'm a bit weak on what that would entail, though I do understand room cancellation and that concerns me.)
2. You don't believe the beaming will be too excessive for HT purposes? (My wife and I are close but we're not newlyweds.)
3. In short, you figure whatever problems the AN's may have, at least I'd be getting true single driver coherency and that would beat all the problems I'd be introducing with more than 1 driver to equal or surpass the same amount of air?
4. Have you heard anything like the Calhoun - a big vent relex? This was a last second wild card for me and I admit I'm intrigued by it now. As a newbie I had limited my original exploration to extensions of what I knew: sealed and BR.
I have to step out for a bit, but I would sincerely appreciate if you could give your reasoning for going with the AN's including whether perhaps:
1. You don't think I'd risk "overloading" the small room? (I'm afraid I'm a bit weak on what that would entail, though I do understand room cancellation and that concerns me.)
2. You don't believe the beaming will be too excessive for HT purposes? (My wife and I are close but we're not newlyweds.)
3. In short, you figure whatever problems the AN's may have, at least I'd be getting true single driver coherency and that would beat all the problems I'd be introducing with more than 1 driver to equal or surpass the same amount of air?
4. Have you heard anything like the Calhoun - a big vent relex? This was a last second wild card for me and I admit I'm intrigued by it now. As a newbie I had limited my original exploration to extensions of what I knew: sealed and BR.
I supose that I may have assumed too much. My apologies to Dave.
Dave, I do have a question for you though.
"Dave of Planet10 told me to be careful which full rangers I attempted to power with the SS Denon. In fact, he only vouched that it would be the one's from CSS that were certain to be compatible."
What is the compatibility issue ?
Jerry,
1. I don't think you would "overload" the room. You can always turn it down, but if you don't have enough , you just don't have enough !
2. HF beaming concerning large drivers; This will likely get alot of criticism, but I have been living with some 12" whizzer-coned FR units for over a year now, and have yet to experience any issues because of it (beaming). Granted, the listening position is a two person couch(aka loveseat) , but it shouldn't be an issue unless you are a good distance apart/off center.
The common thought is that a larger driver will beam high frequencies moreso than a smaller driver. True enough unless we are talking whizzer cones. Is the whizzer cone 8"-10"-12" ? NO, it is MUCH smaller , so why do so many expect it to beam like a large driver ?
Actually, the reduced midrange and/or beaming of the larger main cone can provide a smoother midband response, as it provides less overlap between the cone and whizzer, which reduces the comb filtering effect. You noticed the smoother response of the larger AN drivers. Now you know why.
A FR driver with a whizzer cone is a 2 way driver, it is just powered by a single motor without electronic/electrical crossover point. There is a "mechanical" crossover point , which is the part that is hard to get right (manufacturers problem).
3. I think you would be hard pressed to get any real volume from a 4.5" driver. Even with the addition of the SDX7's (which would do fine with the bass) , the 4.5" driver is still doing the brunt of the work , and from what I understand the unit you are talking about is only about 86db or so ?
86db 1w/1m = 106db 100w/1m (not taking power compression into account) , then move back 2-3 times that distance for your seated position , and you have only 100-94db at approximately 7-10 feet distance from the speaker ! And then consider this is your amp working HARD (100 watts output) and the speaker working HARD (is it even rated for 100 watts ? ).
4. Can't say I've heard any BVR designs. As far as I can tell, they are basically bass reflex with horn loaded ports .
I don't understand why you would consider vented designs if you are looking for only 80hz extension. Ports are used to either increase output (creating a bump in response) or extend frequency response , or a compromise of the two.
Sealed cabs offer the best transient response, have very simple construction, offer the most linear load (both electrically and mechanically) , and excellent phase response.
To put it in regular terms , they are easy to build, are tight and articulate (if built halfway right) , and are easy for the amp to drive.
................................Blake
Dave, I do have a question for you though.
"Dave of Planet10 told me to be careful which full rangers I attempted to power with the SS Denon. In fact, he only vouched that it would be the one's from CSS that were certain to be compatible."
What is the compatibility issue ?
Jerry,
1. I don't think you would "overload" the room. You can always turn it down, but if you don't have enough , you just don't have enough !
2. HF beaming concerning large drivers; This will likely get alot of criticism, but I have been living with some 12" whizzer-coned FR units for over a year now, and have yet to experience any issues because of it (beaming). Granted, the listening position is a two person couch(aka loveseat) , but it shouldn't be an issue unless you are a good distance apart/off center.
The common thought is that a larger driver will beam high frequencies moreso than a smaller driver. True enough unless we are talking whizzer cones. Is the whizzer cone 8"-10"-12" ? NO, it is MUCH smaller , so why do so many expect it to beam like a large driver ?
Actually, the reduced midrange and/or beaming of the larger main cone can provide a smoother midband response, as it provides less overlap between the cone and whizzer, which reduces the comb filtering effect. You noticed the smoother response of the larger AN drivers. Now you know why.
A FR driver with a whizzer cone is a 2 way driver, it is just powered by a single motor without electronic/electrical crossover point. There is a "mechanical" crossover point , which is the part that is hard to get right (manufacturers problem).
3. I think you would be hard pressed to get any real volume from a 4.5" driver. Even with the addition of the SDX7's (which would do fine with the bass) , the 4.5" driver is still doing the brunt of the work , and from what I understand the unit you are talking about is only about 86db or so ?
86db 1w/1m = 106db 100w/1m (not taking power compression into account) , then move back 2-3 times that distance for your seated position , and you have only 100-94db at approximately 7-10 feet distance from the speaker ! And then consider this is your amp working HARD (100 watts output) and the speaker working HARD (is it even rated for 100 watts ? ).
4. Can't say I've heard any BVR designs. As far as I can tell, they are basically bass reflex with horn loaded ports .
I don't understand why you would consider vented designs if you are looking for only 80hz extension. Ports are used to either increase output (creating a bump in response) or extend frequency response , or a compromise of the two.
Sealed cabs offer the best transient response, have very simple construction, offer the most linear load (both electrically and mechanically) , and excellent phase response.
To put it in regular terms , they are easy to build, are tight and articulate (if built halfway right) , and are easy for the amp to drive.
................................Blake
I'm not Dave, but I can make a fair guess at what he's saying. The CSS units have a middling Q & sensitivity; several of their rivals, such as the FE126E for e.g. have a substantially lower Q & if driven by an SS amp with the low output impedance, will have a falling LF response as the amp is doing nothing to counter their own heavily damped behaviour without some form of Eq. The CSS units don't have particularly high sensitivity either, so they like a few watts pumped into them. YMMV as always of course.
VanJerry said:
It means exactly as you write it
FR125 is a very small and VERY low sensitivity driver
Sensitivity may be more like 80db and cannot play loud
The Exodus is a very tough driver and would be much better suited, but its not a fullrange, I forgot that one
I have no clew about using FR drivers fore surround
but in my youth some friends made quadrafonic setups with 4 Coral Beta8 FR drivers in quaterwaves, and it was quite impressive, not my style, I like plain stereo, but anyway its my impression that with BIG and powerfull stereo speaker you dont need any surround
Nihilist said:
Scott covered off most of it. The FR125SR thrives on largish PP Class AB amps. They don't like SE amps much (SS or tube) -- they seem to exagerate the FR hitting its stops.
The Fostex tends to be very unforgiving of the typical Class AB SS amp weak areas.
With little FRs you can almost predict whether the CSS or the Fostex will sound better based on the amp.
dave
Scottmoose said:
Scottmoose,
How would I determine if the Denon AV3805 has a low output impedance? Can this be interpreted from the specs by the electrically challenged or must it require an understanding of the approach taken by the manufacturer?
Specs:
http://ca.denon.com/AVR3805_DFU_ownersmanual.pdf
It will. 99.999% of regular class AB SS amps do. They have some variance, but not really enough to cause much in the way of alterations WRT FR units.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/basic-amplifier-measurement-techniques
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/basic-amplifier-measurement-techniques
Scottmoose,
MJK and Planet10 have opposing opinions on this matter at least as it concerns my aspirations. To my newbiehood these are like a Mamma and Pappa of full range drivers here! Sorry - not inferring which is which
I would like to settle on a driver I can use with my Denon now. Though I'm risk averse, if this doesn't work out terrifically I would not terribly mind joining the other side of this culture in pursuit of building a more appropriate amp.
Rather than be slowed by this gentlemanly difference could there be enough margin to move forward if I were to use the Denon at lower volumes and crossed over to a powered sub below 80Hz? Perhaps at the cost of accepting the possibility of reduced quality on those occasions that I ran a tad louder and otherwise having to pay attention to certain symptoms that might serve as warning to back off? Like a quality of sound, or a... sudden movement or scent?
Without a compromise I suppose my choices are to throw caution to the wind.
Or I could maybe glean something extrapolating my understanding of what Dave told me about how the CSS FR125 would work best, while the FE206e would be an example of something that wouldn't work, leaving the F200, FE207e and FE127e to sort of sneak by.
I could compare these drivers with some others:
----------------- Qes --------- Qms -------- Qts -------- SPL
CSS FR125 ---- 0.72 -------- 3.37 -------- 0.59 ------- 85.5
F200 ----------- 0.36 -------- 2.63 -------- 0.32 -------- 90
FE127e -------- 0.50 -------- 3.33 -------- 0.43 -------- 91
FE207e -------- 0.28 -------- 3.86 -------- 0.26 -------- 95
FE206e -------- 0.18 -------- 3.73 -------- 0.18 -------- 96
HA FR8C ------- 0.50 -------- 2.50 -------- 0.40 ------- 95.5
AN Cast 8 ----- 0.184 ------- 3.38 ------- 0.175 ------ 95.8
AN Cast 10 --- 0.275 ------- 3.42 ------- 0.254 ------- 95.9
AN Cast 12 --- 0.531 ------- 5.90 ------- 0.488 ------- 95.47
And I can wonder - if I can detect the pattern and admit the SPL is tricky - could the HA FR8C and the Audio Nirvana Cast 12 make it too? Or perhaps even just marginally, the Cast 10?
(I am trying to aim for 8" or larger drivers to ensure adequate single driver presence for HT at close quarters and variable volume.)
MJK and Planet10 have opposing opinions on this matter at least as it concerns my aspirations. To my newbiehood these are like a Mamma and Pappa of full range drivers here! Sorry - not inferring which is which
I would like to settle on a driver I can use with my Denon now. Though I'm risk averse, if this doesn't work out terrifically I would not terribly mind joining the other side of this culture in pursuit of building a more appropriate amp.
Rather than be slowed by this gentlemanly difference could there be enough margin to move forward if I were to use the Denon at lower volumes and crossed over to a powered sub below 80Hz? Perhaps at the cost of accepting the possibility of reduced quality on those occasions that I ran a tad louder and otherwise having to pay attention to certain symptoms that might serve as warning to back off? Like a quality of sound, or a... sudden movement or scent?
Without a compromise I suppose my choices are to throw caution to the wind.
Or I could maybe glean something extrapolating my understanding of what Dave told me about how the CSS FR125 would work best, while the FE206e would be an example of something that wouldn't work, leaving the F200, FE207e and FE127e to sort of sneak by.
I could compare these drivers with some others:
----------------- Qes --------- Qms -------- Qts -------- SPL
CSS FR125 ---- 0.72 -------- 3.37 -------- 0.59 ------- 85.5
F200 ----------- 0.36 -------- 2.63 -------- 0.32 -------- 90
FE127e -------- 0.50 -------- 3.33 -------- 0.43 -------- 91
FE207e -------- 0.28 -------- 3.86 -------- 0.26 -------- 95
FE206e -------- 0.18 -------- 3.73 -------- 0.18 -------- 96
HA FR8C ------- 0.50 -------- 2.50 -------- 0.40 ------- 95.5
AN Cast 8 ----- 0.184 ------- 3.38 ------- 0.175 ------ 95.8
AN Cast 10 --- 0.275 ------- 3.42 ------- 0.254 ------- 95.9
AN Cast 12 --- 0.531 ------- 5.90 ------- 0.488 ------- 95.47
And I can wonder - if I can detect the pattern and admit the SPL is tricky - could the HA FR8C and the Audio Nirvana Cast 12 make it too? Or perhaps even just marginally, the Cast 10?
(I am trying to aim for 8" or larger drivers to ensure adequate single driver presence for HT at close quarters and variable volume.)
Volume / SPLs is neither here nor there. Your Denon will work with all of the drivers, but you'll have to Eq things if you used it with low Q units (which is what Martin will have primarily meant when he said 'you just have to make sure you design your speaker for the type of amp you want to use.') The better quality / more revealing drivers will tend to reveal the limitations of a middling amplifier though, as Dave pointed out, which is something that you'll want to keep in mind.
OK, if you want me to go out on a limb, as you say you're aiming for 8in drivers, for relatively close quarter HT use, then I'd go for them. My choice? An FE207E in a decent BR cabinet, such as Bob Brines's FB20: http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/FB-20/Main.html That ought to do the job nicely, especially if you integrate a nice sub (or better, a pair of subs) with them.
OK, if you want me to go out on a limb, as you say you're aiming for 8in drivers, for relatively close quarter HT use, then I'd go for them. My choice? An FE207E in a decent BR cabinet, such as Bob Brines's FB20: http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/FB-20/Main.html That ought to do the job nicely, especially if you integrate a nice sub (or better, a pair of subs) with them.
Scottmoose [/i]Volume / SPLs is neither here nor there. Your Denon will work with all of the drivers said:
Do I understand you correctly that you mean that of drivers that are 8" and larger that you would suggest 8" over a 10" or 12." Meaning you feel there is an inherent advantage to an 8" in closed quarters? Whether smaller room or possibly near-field.
I appreciate your going out on a limb with the FE207e. Coming across the FB-20 in my research was an important early influence that helped swing me towards the possibility of single driver HT. Is there something specific about it's character that suggests to you that it suits HT more than, say the F200A?
Nihilist said:
That's what I was thinking!
Yes, there's theory, but if you've lived with these you are the final authority. This forum is full of things that weren't supposed to work until they did.
I hoped I could further expand the listening position (LP) by toeing in a bit. That was also one large motivation to choose the Cast 10". I thought the substantially greater HF extension the 10" has over the 12" might let me toe in even more and enlarge the LP without giving up any more HF than the 12" might have offered without the extra toe.
Well, the proof is in your experience.
I very much noticed that. I'd say that increased smoothness and overall flatness was every bit as important to me as the size. One of the things that postponed me committing to the Nirvana's was how much it pained me to have to decide between the bigger air and smoother midrange of the 12" and the extended HF, smaller VAS and lighter cone of the 10".
But could you just go over that a little more. It's good stuff but the information is just a little dense for me to be sure I get it in one sentence.
The way mechanical solutions are free to replace or avoid the need for extra complexities: both of electronics and of perception, are what attracts me to single drivers in the first place! In fact a big reason I chose to recently audition the excellent Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1* was David Fabrikant's choice of using a vertical bamboo enclosure. And I chose Brian's Rythmik sub because of the inherent genius of the direct servo approach that allows the cone to be controlled in the fastest, cheapest and most direct way. (* Outstanding for 2-ways. I only didn't keep them because they hinted so well at what it'd be like to have a transparent point source that they helped me realize I had a closet need to come explore this world here. )
That was a big concern for HT. I was never sure if the 4.5's high excursion and my own willingness to not need reference level volumes would make a workable combination. Hence the 2 SDX7 + single FR125. I even thought of 4 FR125's in a standmount tetrahedron: one on each face wired in series/parallel [anyone up for that one?] - but then I remembered what I came here for: the simplicity of the single driver.
Just wasn't sure how well the mains would handle the "HT zone" from 80 - 250 Hz. Hence an aspect of this thread title. One possibility had me using the Rythmik down from 60Hz to avoid localization. And have two midbass subs go from 60 to 250. I thought if that were the case I might not want to leave that little hole from 60 to 80. But you're right. When sealed the roll off would be pretty gradual. Plus the Rythmik is sealed. Might make the sub/mains transition that much more seamless. I'd like maximal transient and phase response.
An important thing I'd like to ask though: Might you have an effective way to keep internal reflections from coming back out through the cone other than packing the heck out of it? - I'd be wanting every bit of that snappyness you mentioned earlier. Aside from lining with acoustic pyramid foam and maybe nerf balls the only idea I have so far is to use a curved or angular box
Thanks for the long read
That nice frequency/spl curve on the ANs is true.
Its not shouty.
Its fantastic.
I prefer about 5% volume as a starting point, below that and the bass gets lost.
Wow your room is small for that many large speakers Should be fun.
ANs have a 30day money back. Trying them out is pretty much risk free. They are flat out fantastic.
I didnt like them with my commercial amp. Harmon Kardon AVR 135 with 50watts per channel. But I didnt like my Fostex or Aperion with it either. Everything sounded better on my tube amp and the ANs sound best on my ChipAmp. My fear here is that you may not enjoy any of these with the Denon like you would with most of the easy to build DIY chip amps. You dont have to know anything about anything to build an AudioSector or BrianGT chipamp.
I think, personally, your are over thinking it.
Basically, you want to run home theater and DIY seems neat and the FR seems even cooler. But you are trying to do it all perfectly the first time without previous experience with these speakers and you are not talking about a real simple system.
You dont have to do it all at once. Ultimately, you have to hear these speakers. Whichever you choose. So why not pick a driver, buy two, build the cabs and have a good listen?
Here is how easy it is to build enclosures for the ANs
http://picasaweb.google.com/udailey/AudioNirvanaSuper12Build
I think its 3.85 cubic feet. Wife likes them. Alot. I didnt think they had any WAF to them
This system stops people in their tracks. Sits their butts down on the couch. Puts a blank far off look on their face and after 3 or 4 minutes words like "wow, so you built this?" start coming from them. If they are geeky enough we get to trying different CDs and explanations of "what you are hearing/seeing is a soundstage" and discussions like "yeah, probably you could pay easy five grand for something like this at a store."
Unfortunately, its hard to get surround with a full DIY. So things like the Harmon Kardon and the Denon have their place, but there are also surround sound processors that have 5.1 outs and you could slap a chipamp channel on each one of those outs attenuated with a nice pre.
Dont pass up the ANs so quickly. Audio Guru Nelson Pass just bought several pairs of each version of the AN line. He is trying them all in open baffle and this is all around the time he is coming out with the F5 amp and the B1 Buffer Preamp. He will be publishing his findings soon. So, we can assume that he feels there is promise and worth in the AN FRs to pair them with his already legendary amplifiers.
Another thing, you are looking for advice and you began looking for advice with the ANs. Have you got any advice from someone who has used them, or from someone who has spent a decent amount of time playing with them to see what does and does not work?
Uriah
Its not shouty.
Its fantastic.
I prefer about 5% volume as a starting point, below that and the bass gets lost.
Wow your room is small for that many large speakers
Should be fun.ANs have a 30day money back. Trying them out is pretty much risk free. They are flat out fantastic.
I didnt like them with my commercial amp. Harmon Kardon AVR 135 with 50watts per channel. But I didnt like my Fostex or Aperion with it either. Everything sounded better on my tube amp and the ANs sound best on my ChipAmp. My fear here is that you may not enjoy any of these with the Denon like you would with most of the easy to build DIY chip amps. You dont have to know anything about anything to build an AudioSector or BrianGT chipamp.
I think, personally, your are over thinking it.
Basically, you want to run home theater and DIY seems neat and the FR seems even cooler. But you are trying to do it all perfectly the first time without previous experience with these speakers and you are not talking about a real simple system.
You dont have to do it all at once. Ultimately, you have to hear these speakers. Whichever you choose. So why not pick a driver, buy two, build the cabs and have a good listen?
Here is how easy it is to build enclosures for the ANs
http://picasaweb.google.com/udailey/AudioNirvanaSuper12Build
I think its 3.85 cubic feet. Wife likes them. Alot. I didnt think they had any WAF to them
This system stops people in their tracks. Sits their butts down on the couch. Puts a blank far off look on their face and after 3 or 4 minutes words like "wow, so you built this?" start coming from them. If they are geeky enough we get to trying different CDs and explanations of "what you are hearing/seeing is a soundstage" and discussions like "yeah, probably you could pay easy five grand for something like this at a store."
Unfortunately, its hard to get surround with a full DIY. So things like the Harmon Kardon and the Denon have their place, but there are also surround sound processors that have 5.1 outs and you could slap a chipamp channel on each one of those outs attenuated with a nice pre.
Dont pass up the ANs so quickly. Audio Guru Nelson Pass just bought several pairs of each version of the AN line. He is trying them all in open baffle and this is all around the time he is coming out with the F5 amp and the B1 Buffer Preamp. He will be publishing his findings soon. So, we can assume that he feels there is promise and worth in the AN FRs to pair them with his already legendary amplifiers.
Another thing, you are looking for advice and you began looking for advice with the ANs. Have you got any advice from someone who has used them, or from someone who has spent a decent amount of time playing with them to see what does and does not work?
Uriah
tinitus said:
B &W found the matrix box to store ten times less energy than the same size concrete box. Very cool. Thank you tinitus.
I'm sorry but did you leave out a "
" - I thought box resonance to almost zero would be nothing but a very good thing? But - oh, perhaps you mean carried too far this can make for a sterile/analytical sound?I understand making an enclosure stiff and how this will make the box itself almost disappear. I desire this so much I've been looking into building with vertical bamboo because 3/4 inch bamboo has been measured to be equivalent to 3" of MDF.) But reading a few dozen pages citing the use of matrix bracing I couldn't find if this will also actually cancel the driver's back sound from coming back out through the cone? That is, matrix can make a box very stiff - but does it also cancel sound from being available to come back out through the cone?
Speaker review with image of Matrix
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