OB/FR is where I ended up finding myself seeing 'Nirvana' after much experimentation and study. Simply my preferences, not necessarily anyone else's Cup of Tea. Still crazy over Horns, simply no room for them.
I'm an admitted Couch Potato when not online or working so HT is important to me as well as music. My music takes preference regards quality of sound and a year ago I saw myself needing separate systems for each. When I started studying amplification I also saw myself investing bucco dollaro to meet all needs.
Of late I'm wondering if all this is necessary for those of us of meager means.
I'd like to see sensitivity of high 90's for music just because of distortion concerns, not because I'd seek lower powered amps. Subs don't really concern me that much as to my way of thinking I see all kinds of options there that I believe would integrate fairly well for Movie use and I personally don't need to rattle the walls for entertainment when a helicopter flies over. Again, simply me.
Some guys run tubes for both music and HT. Out of the question financially for many of us as well as beyond our DIY skills for many. I'm not seeing GC as a meets all needs alternative anymore and even done DIY properly not an inexpensive task. I do like them as alternatives to standard fare for Office use and plan to limit my excursions there to that purpose for near future. Of late I'm also over at Nelson's page primarily spurred on by Scott Mouses comments regards build difficulty being easier than many GC's in another thread. I'm also impressed as to how many testimonies from guys believing they sound just as good as or even better than tubes. They are still beyond my skill levels without a good deal more reading. Financially appears to be doable.
Stay with me on this, I'm getting there.
Posted in another recent thread I bring into play the multi amp units from Emotiva, Outlaw, Rotel and even used Bryston. You can't knock a 20 year transferable warranty. 3 years old Brystons are fairly affordable and most that invested that initial sticker price likely treated such as the investment they were.
I don't personally know tubes but all that run them claim this is the ultimate. Financially I'm starting to see these above mentioned units as 2nd. best alternative and combined with high sensitivity OB/FR speakers a good bet for both music and HT . I haven't read a great deal about each companies processors but I'm sure there is a Sub out and if not many are versatile enough in hook-up options to get you plenty of power for Subs unless you simply must have 20hz. at 110 decibels.
Adding an active XO and equalizer if individual felt such necessary (I'm not convinced, especially if you used dual Subs, think gain settings likely adequate) should integrate well enough to give you a pretty kick tail music and HT system for reasonable dollars.
Many guys are posting low buck OB efforts of late but some don't meet both needs and several that appear they would aren't telling us how they are powering same.
Moderator - Asking much but could we see a separate gallery section for OB efforts? It's growing rapidly.
I'd like to hear from those of you who have built that are happy if you believe your choice meets both HT and Music needs as well as how you amplified. Kind of a dual topic question but really a combined question I thought answered best posted here.
Move it if you desire.
Show off guys - please. Many of us want the whole story.
Thanks - Bluto
I'm an admitted Couch Potato when not online or working so HT is important to me as well as music. My music takes preference regards quality of sound and a year ago I saw myself needing separate systems for each. When I started studying amplification I also saw myself investing bucco dollaro to meet all needs.
Of late I'm wondering if all this is necessary for those of us of meager means.
I'd like to see sensitivity of high 90's for music just because of distortion concerns, not because I'd seek lower powered amps. Subs don't really concern me that much as to my way of thinking I see all kinds of options there that I believe would integrate fairly well for Movie use and I personally don't need to rattle the walls for entertainment when a helicopter flies over. Again, simply me.
Some guys run tubes for both music and HT. Out of the question financially for many of us as well as beyond our DIY skills for many. I'm not seeing GC as a meets all needs alternative anymore and even done DIY properly not an inexpensive task. I do like them as alternatives to standard fare for Office use and plan to limit my excursions there to that purpose for near future. Of late I'm also over at Nelson's page primarily spurred on by Scott Mouses comments regards build difficulty being easier than many GC's in another thread. I'm also impressed as to how many testimonies from guys believing they sound just as good as or even better than tubes. They are still beyond my skill levels without a good deal more reading. Financially appears to be doable.
Stay with me on this, I'm getting there.
Posted in another recent thread I bring into play the multi amp units from Emotiva, Outlaw, Rotel and even used Bryston. You can't knock a 20 year transferable warranty. 3 years old Brystons are fairly affordable and most that invested that initial sticker price likely treated such as the investment they were.
I don't personally know tubes but all that run them claim this is the ultimate. Financially I'm starting to see these above mentioned units as 2nd. best alternative and combined with high sensitivity OB/FR speakers a good bet for both music and HT . I haven't read a great deal about each companies processors but I'm sure there is a Sub out and if not many are versatile enough in hook-up options to get you plenty of power for Subs unless you simply must have 20hz. at 110 decibels.
Adding an active XO and equalizer if individual felt such necessary (I'm not convinced, especially if you used dual Subs, think gain settings likely adequate) should integrate well enough to give you a pretty kick tail music and HT system for reasonable dollars.
Many guys are posting low buck OB efforts of late but some don't meet both needs and several that appear they would aren't telling us how they are powering same.
Moderator - Asking much but could we see a separate gallery section for OB efforts? It's growing rapidly.
I'd like to hear from those of you who have built that are happy if you believe your choice meets both HT and Music needs as well as how you amplified. Kind of a dual topic question but really a combined question I thought answered best posted here.
Move it if you desire.
Show off guys - please. Many of us want the whole story.
Thanks - Bluto
I agree, OB should have it's own category.. Please Mod people please!!
Also very intrigued as of late, since going through a rather long OB thread, and reading Martins thread and MR.Pass and also the Feastrex OB review, plus Ron has mentioned it before.. Seem's like a good deal to go boxless, but would be cool to keep the x-over out of the mix as much as possible..
I think you may need as much room if not more for most OB's as a horn. It would appear that OB's like to be well out from walls etc where some horns work in corners or quite close to room wall's, plus OB's are at least as large in some respects..
Very good thread Bluto, would be cool to explore the daylights out of this design and see all the different ways it could be implemented. I'd dig a top notch fullrange driver, Fostex,Lowther,Aer, Feastrex etc mated well to an amazing bottom end, with little to no x-over on the fullrange.
As far as amps, I'm for tubes but thats just me, and in no way have I ever heard any of the better SS amps for any length of time to get into the whole debate. I got to experience a Bryston at one time and really enjoyed it, and could imagine using one for the low end would be amazing This amp has gained some good praise as of late and reasonable to get into tubes if not wanting to diy an amp http://6moons.com/audioreviews/glow/one.html Also Decware has a kit that would be hard to beat for the $$$ http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm
Dave
Also very intrigued as of late, since going through a rather long OB thread, and reading Martins thread and MR.Pass and also the Feastrex OB review, plus Ron has mentioned it before.. Seem's like a good deal to go boxless, but would be cool to keep the x-over out of the mix as much as possible..
I think you may need as much room if not more for most OB's as a horn. It would appear that OB's like to be well out from walls etc where some horns work in corners or quite close to room wall's, plus OB's are at least as large in some respects..
Very good thread Bluto, would be cool to explore the daylights out of this design and see all the different ways it could be implemented. I'd dig a top notch fullrange driver, Fostex,Lowther,Aer, Feastrex etc mated well to an amazing bottom end, with little to no x-over on the fullrange.
As far as amps, I'm for tubes but thats just me, and in no way have I ever heard any of the better SS amps for any length of time to get into the whole debate. I got to experience a Bryston at one time and really enjoyed it, and could imagine using one for the low end would be amazing
This amp has gained some good praise as of late and reasonable to get into tubes if not wanting to diy an amp http://6moons.com/audioreviews/glow/one.html Also Decware has a kit that would be hard to beat for the $$$ http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htmDave
A very good reasonably priced ob system to do both 2 channel and HT well, with a slight bias towards 2 channel, might be some Hawthorne Audio 15' Silver Iris coaxials with Augie bass driver. (if I can count coax as fullrange?)
I'm a music and movie guy but priority is music. Had B200 OB but the Hawthorne SI's have a bit more scale an impact which suits movies. There Augie which I have in the same baffle is bi-amed with a cheap plate amp and gets me down to mid 20hz with room gain. I have a box sub as well for bellow there but am thinking of selling it as I might only miss it on the Transformers 2.
Using 30w Red Wine class D which is plenty, and am about to build first tube amp kit, the S.E.X amp from Bottlehead. Might use it as a pre or by itself. I expect enough juice for music but not movies if I run the SI's full range. Setting speakers to small in my dvd player should fix this (but I have a fairly convoluted setup where I run a Oppo dvd player to external dac for music, and the Oppo's analogue outs strait to amp and sub for movies - and control volume with Oppo remote)
cheers
bevan
I'm a music and movie guy but priority is music. Had B200 OB but the Hawthorne SI's have a bit more scale an impact which suits movies. There Augie which I have in the same baffle is bi-amed with a cheap plate amp and gets me down to mid 20hz with room gain. I have a box sub as well for bellow there but am thinking of selling it as I might only miss it on the Transformers 2.
Using 30w Red Wine class D which is plenty, and am about to build first tube amp kit, the S.E.X amp from Bottlehead. Might use it as a pre or by itself. I expect enough juice for music but not movies if I run the SI's full range. Setting speakers to small in my dvd player should fix this (but I have a fairly convoluted setup where I run a Oppo dvd player to external dac for music, and the Oppo's analogue outs strait to amp and sub for movies - and control volume with Oppo remote)
cheers
bevan
+1 Vote for OB section in Loudspeakers.
But for now lo and behold !
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123512&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
I think I've found the sound nirvana too ... a pair of big woofers, good fullrange and few gainclones and linkwitz eq circuitry ... and no box!
But for now lo and behold !
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123512&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
I think I've found the sound nirvana too ... a pair of big woofers, good fullrange and few gainclones and linkwitz eq circuitry
... and no box!
I had a reasonable AV system, Theta player, Krell processor, BelCanto amplifier, Sonus Faber speakers and REL subwoofers, pretty good with music too...
Now I have a Linn player/processor, tube amplifier, OB speakers and subwoofer run active from the processor bass management...
It does everything better, even helis, and covers almost 360 with only a stereo pair...
Now I have a Linn player/processor, tube amplifier, OB speakers and subwoofer run active from the processor bass management...
It does everything better, even helis, and covers almost 360 with only a stereo pair...
Yeah sounds good. Truth be told I've actually got the Sterling Silver Iris's and they sound freek'n amazing. And this after coming off Zu and before that Dynaudio Focus.
I've got a bit of a room node at 30hz which helps as I'm running a DEQ2496 on the Augie and am pulling it down by 10db ar 30hz. Crossover I'm not sure as I've got a bit of a suckout above the normal XO and am boosting that a bir. Most guys over at the Hawthorne forums using about a 45-50hz XO and getting flat down to the upper 20's if I'm not mistaken.
I dont listen to loud and reckon I could eq the Augies flat down to 20hz but feel no need as they are plenty full range on music. For a while before I had the Augie I had the DEQ on the SSI's and eq'd them down to the mid 30's no problem. But the Augie is such a seemless blend with the SSI and for so little outlay that it wouldnt make sense not to use them.
FWIW I had some Peerless XLS 830500 drivers in for a while before the Augies arrives, good with eq but I think the Augies slightly better. Interestingly the 12" Peerless drivers would vibrate the baffles and suspended floor more than the Augies, perhaps due to their smaller diameter and therefore greater excursion? or maybe higher mass cones? You might find joy using 2x 10" Augies??
cheers
Bevan
I've got a bit of a room node at 30hz which helps as I'm running a DEQ2496 on the Augie and am pulling it down by 10db ar 30hz. Crossover I'm not sure as I've got a bit of a suckout above the normal XO and am boosting that a bir. Most guys over at the Hawthorne forums using about a 45-50hz XO and getting flat down to the upper 20's if I'm not mistaken.
I dont listen to loud and reckon I could eq the Augies flat down to 20hz but feel no need as they are plenty full range on music. For a while before I had the Augie I had the DEQ on the SSI's and eq'd them down to the mid 30's no problem. But the Augie is such a seemless blend with the SSI and for so little outlay that it wouldnt make sense not to use them.
FWIW I had some Peerless XLS 830500 drivers in for a while before the Augies arrives, good with eq but I think the Augies slightly better. Interestingly the 12" Peerless drivers would vibrate the baffles and suspended floor more than the Augies, perhaps due to their smaller diameter and therefore greater excursion? or maybe higher mass cones? You might find joy using 2x 10" Augies??
cheers
Bevan
My recent experiments have me leaning toward FR driver up top, no filter, running from T-Amp (or tubes for you fancy lads) with woofers below running either from a plate amp for each channel or something like the Dayton APA150 stereo amp that can be converted to either stereo or mono sub amp with active crossover built in just like a plate amp (I've even talked to their techs who talked to the product developer to make sure that it can do stereo sub duty instead of just running a pair of woofers in dual mono).
What started all this was me picking up a pair of Dayton RS100-8 fullrangers. I fell in love with their sound immediately, even in OB with no EQ they hit about 70Hz just in quick and dirty little bits of folded cardboard for baffles, so they were really easy to play with right out of the box. Of course I was used to getting around 55Hz w/EQ from my tricked out B20s in OB, so I wasn't perfectly happy and realized that I needed to start experimenting to see what I could do to go with RS100s and bass augmentation. Have a pair of old 15"ers from a pair of titanic Sansuis that were made the year before I was born (lets just say they're really quite old), and figured from my reading that since they were supposedly 102dB sensitive (still had the manuals from each speaker, crazily enough, along with the original packaging), I could put some resistance in line with them to get their Qts up high enough to be useful in OB. Not only did that not seem to do much other than dirty the sound (with almost no bass to speak of, no less, sadly leaving the RS100s as the thing most present at the bottom), putting the big coils from the Sansui crossovers in line between resistor and driver rolled them off just barely noticeably, still leaving them overlapping the RS100s for 3-4 octaves.
So first things first, I needed OB appropriate woofer to try. Only thing on hand is the 8" drivers from a pair of Yamaha bookshelves that anchor my livingroom system. I'd have drivers from the previous model out on OB before, and they had been quite pleasing. Turned out that had been a long time ago, because when I swapped them for the B20s in my tiny OBs (18"x12" hinged to my desk; more about that in a bit) they surprised the crap out of me by hitting about 45Hz with no EQ with authority and no small sense of space. Of course I don't have much of anything crossover component wise to really play with. Those big coils forming a 1st order really don't roll much off the top of the Yammy 8s, and having them hooked up absolutely killed SQ, so I nixed trying to get them set up with the RS100s at that moment and pulled the B&G Neo3PDRs that I had previously upgraded the Yamaha cases with and popped them in OB with the Yammy drivers, using the Yamaha crossovers (consisting of a the 8"er running full range and the Neo3 on a 2.2uF cap). This didn't sound as integrated in the near field as it did, in the box, about 12-14 feet from my seat in the living room (apparently need a bit smaller cap on the tweet), but it showed me that yes, a single cap on a tweet was a much better solution in an FR situation than a single coil on a woofer. Running this experiment also showed me that those Yamaha drivers were very well behaved and with optimal EQ were good from about 35Hz-5kHz on OB.
On the down side, it also showed me that I preferred the sound of the RS100's top end to the Neo3 on a small cap, so the next step was to bring in my newly acquired floor sample Panasonic XR-57 receiver with digital amps, hook up the RS100s as small fronts and run the subwoofer out to my T-amp to run the Yamaha 8"ers in dual mono. Not the optimal solution, but I'm just trying to learn experientially here. So I do that, and the first thing I find is that there's this strange high frequency whine coming from the 8"ers that stays the same level no matter where I changed the volume (at the T-amp, at the receiver, using the receiver's various adjustments, or at the computer which is my source). As long as there was power to all components, there was the whine, though it was low enough level that if you cranked some music or a DVD with no real quiet spots, you'd stop noticing it almost immediately). Secondly, I find that with an 80Hz crossover set in the receiver, in the nearfield with maybe 6-7 feet between drivers, I wasn't able to notice the bass out of place, even on my most familiar tracks or on DVDs where the video should make your brain see any directionality problems quite clearly. If it weren't for that whine (anyone know what it is and/or how to stop it?) that might have been a good place to pause for awhile, because the overall response, sound stage and SQ were really quite good. Again, I tried my big, salvaged coils between the T-amp and the Yamahas and while they did roll the whine off noticeably, the whine was still there, and the SQ suffered quite a bit more noticeably (do big inductors usually make woofers sound like gritty crap, or are these things just some old, bad design?).
So, my thinking came around to the theory that maybe that whine is a normal interaction between a receiver's sub out and a normal line level in on a full range amp, and that running to a plate or other amp specifically intended to drive subwoofers, with integrated active crossover could very reasonably eliminate the whine from perception, as well as improving the performance of the system as a whole. This makes my next action kinda pricey (probably about $150, minimum) as I'll need 2 channels worth of sub amplifier. After that, I'll probably need a pair of 15" Goldwoods (Fs 29Hz, Qts 1.95) to really get down to the bottom of things, so to speak.
What's you guys' current thinking on things like this? I suppose we're still waiting on MJK's active OB article to get a bit more solid perspective on things.
Kensai
What started all this was me picking up a pair of Dayton RS100-8 fullrangers. I fell in love with their sound immediately, even in OB with no EQ they hit about 70Hz just in quick and dirty little bits of folded cardboard for baffles, so they were really easy to play with right out of the box. Of course I was used to getting around 55Hz w/EQ from my tricked out B20s in OB, so I wasn't perfectly happy and realized that I needed to start experimenting to see what I could do to go with RS100s and bass augmentation. Have a pair of old 15"ers from a pair of titanic Sansuis that were made the year before I was born (lets just say they're really quite old), and figured from my reading that since they were supposedly 102dB sensitive (still had the manuals from each speaker, crazily enough, along with the original packaging), I could put some resistance in line with them to get their Qts up high enough to be useful in OB. Not only did that not seem to do much other than dirty the sound (with almost no bass to speak of, no less, sadly leaving the RS100s as the thing most present at the bottom), putting the big coils from the Sansui crossovers in line between resistor and driver rolled them off just barely noticeably, still leaving them overlapping the RS100s for 3-4 octaves.
So first things first, I needed OB appropriate woofer to try. Only thing on hand is the 8" drivers from a pair of Yamaha bookshelves that anchor my livingroom system. I'd have drivers from the previous model out on OB before, and they had been quite pleasing. Turned out that had been a long time ago, because when I swapped them for the B20s in my tiny OBs (18"x12" hinged to my desk; more about that in a bit) they surprised the crap out of me by hitting about 45Hz with no EQ with authority and no small sense of space. Of course I don't have much of anything crossover component wise to really play with. Those big coils forming a 1st order really don't roll much off the top of the Yammy 8s, and having them hooked up absolutely killed SQ, so I nixed trying to get them set up with the RS100s at that moment and pulled the B&G Neo3PDRs that I had previously upgraded the Yamaha cases with and popped them in OB with the Yammy drivers, using the Yamaha crossovers (consisting of a the 8"er running full range and the Neo3 on a 2.2uF cap). This didn't sound as integrated in the near field as it did, in the box, about 12-14 feet from my seat in the living room (apparently need a bit smaller cap on the tweet), but it showed me that yes, a single cap on a tweet was a much better solution in an FR situation than a single coil on a woofer. Running this experiment also showed me that those Yamaha drivers were very well behaved and with optimal EQ were good from about 35Hz-5kHz on OB.
On the down side, it also showed me that I preferred the sound of the RS100's top end to the Neo3 on a small cap, so the next step was to bring in my newly acquired floor sample Panasonic XR-57 receiver with digital amps, hook up the RS100s as small fronts and run the subwoofer out to my T-amp to run the Yamaha 8"ers in dual mono. Not the optimal solution, but I'm just trying to learn experientially here. So I do that, and the first thing I find is that there's this strange high frequency whine coming from the 8"ers that stays the same level no matter where I changed the volume (at the T-amp, at the receiver, using the receiver's various adjustments, or at the computer which is my source). As long as there was power to all components, there was the whine, though it was low enough level that if you cranked some music or a DVD with no real quiet spots, you'd stop noticing it almost immediately). Secondly, I find that with an 80Hz crossover set in the receiver, in the nearfield with maybe 6-7 feet between drivers, I wasn't able to notice the bass out of place, even on my most familiar tracks or on DVDs where the video should make your brain see any directionality problems quite clearly. If it weren't for that whine (anyone know what it is and/or how to stop it?) that might have been a good place to pause for awhile, because the overall response, sound stage and SQ were really quite good. Again, I tried my big, salvaged coils between the T-amp and the Yamahas and while they did roll the whine off noticeably, the whine was still there, and the SQ suffered quite a bit more noticeably (do big inductors usually make woofers sound like gritty crap, or are these things just some old, bad design?).
So, my thinking came around to the theory that maybe that whine is a normal interaction between a receiver's sub out and a normal line level in on a full range amp, and that running to a plate or other amp specifically intended to drive subwoofers, with integrated active crossover could very reasonably eliminate the whine from perception, as well as improving the performance of the system as a whole. This makes my next action kinda pricey (probably about $150, minimum) as I'll need 2 channels worth of sub amplifier. After that, I'll probably need a pair of 15" Goldwoods (Fs 29Hz, Qts 1.95) to really get down to the bottom of things, so to speak.
What's you guys' current thinking on things like this? I suppose we're still waiting on MJK's active OB article to get a bit more solid perspective on things.
Kensai
Bluto,
Don't rule tubes out as too exspensive. For over ten years now I've been running a Jolida 202a as my main music amp. I bought it in my early twenties while working part-time and going to school. Sure, I was able to find a good deal and put it on layaway, but you can still find good deals on some here and there. The amp itself sounds great, responds to easy mods, and since I've had it has only needed one re-tubing and that was under $100 total. A real good choice. Plus look for some of the hybrids for an even cheaper alt.
As far as OB's go, I think Kensai is oon the right track, or at least the track that I was looking at. Seprate amps for high and low. The RS-100's look ideal for top end. Even those Goldwood 8" 'ers may be a good choice. Use your tube amp or maybe t-amp for those and use a sub-amp or pro-sound amp or even one of these (you could run two woofers per side) with a PLLX-O for a low end speaker like this guy . You did say a max 12" right?
That's just one more project that only exists up in my noggin.
Don't rule tubes out as too exspensive. For over ten years now I've been running a Jolida 202a as my main music amp. I bought it in my early twenties while working part-time and going to school. Sure, I was able to find a good deal and put it on layaway, but you can still find good deals on some here and there. The amp itself sounds great, responds to easy mods, and since I've had it has only needed one re-tubing and that was under $100 total. A real good choice. Plus look for some of the hybrids for an even cheaper alt.
As far as OB's go, I think Kensai is oon the right track, or at least the track that I was looking at. Seprate amps for high and low. The RS-100's look ideal for top end. Even those Goldwood 8" 'ers may be a good choice. Use your tube amp or maybe t-amp for those and use a sub-amp or pro-sound amp or even one of these (you could run two woofers per side) with a PLLX-O for a low end speaker like this guy . You did say a max 12" right?
That's just one more project that only exists up in my noggin.
Guess I'll work backwards - easier to read all.
gurley123 - Tubes or Pass Amps will stay on my list til I one day can afford them or have confidence enough to build. Considering OB/FR that can handle both HT and music needs driven by 'whatever' amps used is simply priority for speaker design in my mind. I really like Jolida's offerings and have heard nothing but good from those I've spoken with running them.
I had ran into this 'Sure Electronics' amps quite awhile back and they impressed me as well. I'm gona do a search here and elsewhere to see if I can learn more. Price looks near to unbeatable.
In another OB thread I have saved from just several weeks back talk of that Goldwood came up and changed my mind from pulling the trigger on Hawthorne Auggies which I was real solid on. Consideration of Altec-Lansing or ElectroVoice Vintage FR's also stopped me from going with Hawthornes FR's. Good choices non the less and best I'd seen as value. Wish I could hear both possibilities as described side to side.
I've just started reading on PLLX-O and all XO design where fact I'm an idiot shows.
Seeing guys put together both low and high buck systems that work with included XO and Amp concerns is where I'm hoping this thread will go.
Kensai - Man ..... I love the way you think! You're twice as knowledgeable as I but have that same experimental Spirit!
I am real disappointed to hear your results with the Sansui's as I mentioned in another thread I have 4 of them and the numbers had me believing they'd be excellent as OB bass. At least now I know not to try them. I'm still thinking these might be a go in a bass bin box. I'll admit they do sound sloppy under power. Bin may actually make such worse. Likely I'll just sell all 4 speakers as is. They are an easy 8.5 out of 10. I'm giving up my Quad basement dream.
I'm with gurley in thinking as you do regards separate amplification for both highs and lows. The most control possible with the least electronics in XO is where I'd like to see design go. I don't know where my idea of Emotiva, Bryston etc. and using their signal processors puts me on this without more study. Also thinking possible pre-amp via soundcard in a PC. There are experts here on this subject and I hope some with OB/FR desires show up to enlighten us. Appears to me much possible with this route but my knowledge is minimal at best. Also seems an economical route.
Gain Phile - 'You Da Man' !!!
Thanks for link. I'd seen a few of those here and there but didn't realize you'd put together an entire library. I had a ball there! Talk about ideas! There are several other loose ones here and there on forum that I hope people see your thread here and add to it. Best collection around. Thanks for that.
bvan - You'll see I pulled back from Hawthorne but still think it likely the best integrated reasonably priced system out there. You can't beat that price for 2 FR's and 2 Auggies at 15" with crossover actually built for you. I've also heard nothing but great reviews on the Oppo's and that likely my choice for next DVD/CD, an editorial on your mods would be most welcome or a link if you've already done so.
Davecan - Agreed regards space on Horns but I want to run 2 sets of drivers plus subs and all I read made it appear getting 2 different types of horns to integrate is a tall order. My experiments didn't get me bass I was after in horns and thinking a horn combined with an OB set-up and bass augmentation wouldn't integrate at all. Overall wall length as well as depth makes choice of drivers a tough decision in my consideration. Right now I'm leaning towards a 10" FR and 2 - 12" bass units bi-amped as one set and the 2nd. set being a line array of 6 - 5" x 7" FR's I own with an SPL of 95. These run 70-12000 so I'd add little Dayton tweets. Midrange clarity on these is outstanding.
Really Cool thoughts - hope to see more.
Bluto
Wondering if this thread would get more action if placed by Gain Philes Library?
gurley123 - Tubes or Pass Amps will stay on my list til I one day can afford them or have confidence enough to build. Considering OB/FR that can handle both HT and music needs driven by 'whatever' amps used is simply priority for speaker design in my mind. I really like Jolida's offerings and have heard nothing but good from those I've spoken with running them.
I had ran into this 'Sure Electronics' amps quite awhile back and they impressed me as well. I'm gona do a search here and elsewhere to see if I can learn more. Price looks near to unbeatable.
In another OB thread I have saved from just several weeks back talk of that Goldwood came up and changed my mind from pulling the trigger on Hawthorne Auggies which I was real solid on. Consideration of Altec-Lansing or ElectroVoice Vintage FR's also stopped me from going with Hawthornes FR's. Good choices non the less and best I'd seen as value. Wish I could hear both possibilities as described side to side.
I've just started reading on PLLX-O and all XO design where fact I'm an idiot shows.
Seeing guys put together both low and high buck systems that work with included XO and Amp concerns is where I'm hoping this thread will go.
Kensai - Man ..... I love the way you think! You're twice as knowledgeable as I but have that same experimental Spirit!
I am real disappointed to hear your results with the Sansui's as I mentioned in another thread I have 4 of them and the numbers had me believing they'd be excellent as OB bass. At least now I know not to try them. I'm still thinking these might be a go in a bass bin box. I'll admit they do sound sloppy under power. Bin may actually make such worse. Likely I'll just sell all 4 speakers as is. They are an easy 8.5 out of 10. I'm giving up my Quad basement dream.
I'm with gurley in thinking as you do regards separate amplification for both highs and lows. The most control possible with the least electronics in XO is where I'd like to see design go. I don't know where my idea of Emotiva, Bryston etc. and using their signal processors puts me on this without more study. Also thinking possible pre-amp via soundcard in a PC. There are experts here on this subject and I hope some with OB/FR desires show up to enlighten us. Appears to me much possible with this route but my knowledge is minimal at best. Also seems an economical route.
Gain Phile - 'You Da Man' !!!
Thanks for link. I'd seen a few of those here and there but didn't realize you'd put together an entire library. I had a ball there! Talk about ideas! There are several other loose ones here and there on forum that I hope people see your thread here and add to it. Best collection around. Thanks for that.
bvan - You'll see I pulled back from Hawthorne but still think it likely the best integrated reasonably priced system out there. You can't beat that price for 2 FR's and 2 Auggies at 15" with crossover actually built for you. I've also heard nothing but great reviews on the Oppo's and that likely my choice for next DVD/CD, an editorial on your mods would be most welcome or a link if you've already done so.
Davecan - Agreed regards space on Horns but I want to run 2 sets of drivers plus subs and all I read made it appear getting 2 different types of horns to integrate is a tall order. My experiments didn't get me bass I was after in horns and thinking a horn combined with an OB set-up and bass augmentation wouldn't integrate at all. Overall wall length as well as depth makes choice of drivers a tough decision in my consideration. Right now I'm leaning towards a 10" FR and 2 - 12" bass units bi-amped as one set and the 2nd. set being a line array of 6 - 5" x 7" FR's I own with an SPL of 95. These run 70-12000 so I'd add little Dayton tweets. Midrange clarity on these is outstanding.
Really Cool thoughts - hope to see more.
Bluto
Wondering if this thread would get more action if placed by Gain Philes Library?
Kensai -
Have you looked at the Perfect Technologies' - 'Force' that gainphile has in his library?
I'm gona try my Misco's simply as I own them or I'd invest in the Daytons. 8 of those should get you to near 94spl.
Think on a clone with those of this 'Force' using little Dayton Neo tweets.
Bluto
Have you looked at the Perfect Technologies' - 'Force' that gainphile has in his library?
I'm gona try my Misco's simply as I own them or I'd invest in the Daytons. 8 of those should get you to near 94spl.
Think on a clone with those of this 'Force' using little Dayton Neo tweets.
Bluto
Hawthorne has a 10'' that may suit the bill for you. Perhaps a pair of those and a set of the 15'' Augies may be all you need for your room. I would guess the 10'' coax's sound better or more accurate than the 15'' ones... http://hawthorneaudio.com/drivers.htm#10SICoax
I'd start with the music system first and work in HT later after getting the main 2 channel right..
This could be a killer OB and amp system for the money:
One pair Silver Iris OB 10'' includes x-over = $290.00
One pair of Siver Iris OB 15'' Augie's = $300.00
Glow Audio Amp One http://www.glow-audio.com/home.html = $488.00
Now you just have to power the Augies. That could get you going for $1078 not including Augie power ( I wouldn't use a plate amp, perhaps the Reckhorn or? ). Use your old wire or some Cat5 and your set for reasonable $$$$
Dave
I'd start with the music system first and work in HT later after getting the main 2 channel right..
This could be a killer OB and amp system for the money:
One pair Silver Iris OB 10'' includes x-over = $290.00
One pair of Siver Iris OB 15'' Augie's = $300.00
Glow Audio Amp One http://www.glow-audio.com/home.html = $488.00
Now you just have to power the Augies. That could get you going for $1078 not including Augie power ( I wouldn't use a plate amp, perhaps the Reckhorn or? ). Use your old wire or some Cat5 and your set for reasonable $$$$
Dave
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?board=90.0
the Tone Tubby hemp alnico seems to be a most interesting development, might be worth waiting a while while others put in the r&d time. if there is luck running it fullrange with a tweeter filling in after its natural 7(?)k roll off i might be interested myself, for a second system. at this stage I wouldnt know what tweeter would match sensitivity wise so as not to require passive or active eq. dr mason et al got their finger on the pulse i reckon.
the Tone Tubby hemp alnico seems to be a most interesting development, might be worth waiting a while while others put in the r&d time. if there is luck running it fullrange with a tweeter filling in after its natural 7(?)k roll off i might be interested myself, for a second system. at this stage I wouldnt know what tweeter would match sensitivity wise so as not to require passive or active eq. dr mason et al got their finger on the pulse i reckon.
Hi Bluto
you mentioned the Sure Electronics amps. If these are the boards available on Ebay, I'd advise caution, especially with high efficiency speakers. I've found them quite noisy. The smaller 12 v supply ones ( I forget the output) were grim in this regard and also lacked life with my 90db OBs. There is a thread on modifying these, and some of the changes generated some improvement, but I still don't find them satisfactory. I haven't bothered modifiying the 24v 100 watt. These again are very noisy, but at least show some life in the sound.
Power supply, whether SLA or switch mode seems to make little difference...
Rgds
you mentioned the Sure Electronics amps. If these are the boards available on Ebay, I'd advise caution, especially with high efficiency speakers. I've found them quite noisy. The smaller 12 v supply ones ( I forget the output) were grim in this regard and also lacked life with my 90db OBs. There is a thread on modifying these, and some of the changes generated some improvement, but I still don't find them satisfactory. I haven't bothered modifiying the 24v 100 watt. These again are very noisy, but at least show some life in the sound.
Power supply, whether SLA or switch mode seems to make little difference...
Rgds
h.g
I had thought that for a second at first, but ground loop hum is at the frequency of your AC, or 60Hz in my part of the world. This is way up over 1kHz, so unless some interaction that's is unknown to my is going on (and that never happens ;-p )
Bluto,
Is that what this is, and OB brain dump? I really don't think you want to get me started. I've got conceptual design acumen way out past what I actually know about speaker building. So many ideas, so little budget, you know?
Anyway, how about a bass line array to go with our active low pass setup? Got some cheap options if you're not intent on digging into the bottom octave:
Apex Jr.
The 6" CV drivers about a third down.
or
Goldwood 7"er
Make a line of at least 4. 8 would probably be optimal for most spaces. Baffle can be pretty narrow, especially since we're actively crossing and hopefully have a much beefier amp for the bass section. What we need then is probably a fairly high efficiency FR unit, likely a Fostex of some flavor, though if tuned properly, we might be able to integrate some sort of Tang Band or the RS100 or whatever sort of fullranger you might have on hand.
The Cerwin Vegas are a mostly unknown quantity. Don't know what their top end might do if you weren't low passing them. All we have is the supplied T/S which show it should be good on OB. On a flat baffle with a good line of them and a good amp, you'll probably be able to get them politely into the upper 40s. We could possibly make the baffle into a U which could get us a few extra hertz at the bottom. Possibly we could build the bottom of the line to be an H baffle which would get a couple more herts and build a cheap, solid base structure for the line baffle. So say we might optimally get a 40Hz-20kHz OB with line array bass and the bass drivers would only cost $40+ship per side. Once you've got your signal chain set (nice tube or digi amp up top and a solid plate amp on the bottom) these could actually sound very nice, even if the CV drivers are junk (they don't look like junk but you'll never know till you have them in hand) because absolute SQ is hard to make out down below the non equalized bottom end of a small FR unit on a narrow baffle.
The Goldwoods review pretty well there on the PE product page. On guy is reporting response to 32Hz from singles in very large sealed cabinets. These are most likely to sound adequate up to their upper rolloff in case you wanted to try them, say, on a cheap serial crossover up beyond the vocal range (definitely real 2-way stuff, not really for FR forum material, but its OB and I'm thinking in print). One of my more recent revelations is that dust caps have very distinct effects on EQ, and the styles I find least offensive are either A), no dust cap, having been replaced with a phase plug or B) an inverted dust cap. Being one of the few OB appropriate drivers I can find that have inverted dust caps, I'm inclined to believe that they might sound really quite good, and being treated poly cones, they might even run full range with a polite rolloff up top. But used in our active setup here, maybe using our U and/or H baffle strategies, these might possibly dig down into the mid-high 30s.
Anyway, you'll notice that I'm building bass arrays here, not true line arrays. With drivers the size of any of our FRs, even my tiny RS100s, you're going to run into comb filtering pretty early on as the frequency rises. Now, I've not actually built anything that should theoretically create comb filtering, but more knowledgeable parties agree its there, at least showing up as an early rolloff up top, sometimes as a noticeably ragged early rolloff. I have, however, witnessed arrangements taking units with smooth midranges run in multiples and this always tends to result in a muddying of the midrange, so from experience I would recommend not doing it. Line arrays should be limited to bass unless you've got the proper drivers to achieve the right spacing (or more optimally, some long planars or ribbons to at least handle the high frequencies where combing is hardest to avoid).
Oh well, I think that's enough for now. I'll hand off the hot potato.
Kensai
I had thought that for a second at first, but ground loop hum is at the frequency of your AC, or 60Hz in my part of the world. This is way up over 1kHz, so unless some interaction that's is unknown to my is going on (and that never happens ;-p )
Bluto,
Is that what this is, and OB brain dump? I really don't think you want to get me started. I've got conceptual design acumen way out past what I actually know about speaker building. So many ideas, so little budget, you know?
Anyway, how about a bass line array to go with our active low pass setup? Got some cheap options if you're not intent on digging into the bottom octave:
Apex Jr.
The 6" CV drivers about a third down.
or
Goldwood 7"er
Make a line of at least 4. 8 would probably be optimal for most spaces. Baffle can be pretty narrow, especially since we're actively crossing and hopefully have a much beefier amp for the bass section. What we need then is probably a fairly high efficiency FR unit, likely a Fostex of some flavor, though if tuned properly, we might be able to integrate some sort of Tang Band or the RS100 or whatever sort of fullranger you might have on hand.
The Cerwin Vegas are a mostly unknown quantity. Don't know what their top end might do if you weren't low passing them. All we have is the supplied T/S which show it should be good on OB. On a flat baffle with a good line of them and a good amp, you'll probably be able to get them politely into the upper 40s. We could possibly make the baffle into a U which could get us a few extra hertz at the bottom. Possibly we could build the bottom of the line to be an H baffle which would get a couple more herts and build a cheap, solid base structure for the line baffle. So say we might optimally get a 40Hz-20kHz OB with line array bass and the bass drivers would only cost $40+ship per side. Once you've got your signal chain set (nice tube or digi amp up top and a solid plate amp on the bottom) these could actually sound very nice, even if the CV drivers are junk (they don't look like junk but you'll never know till you have them in hand) because absolute SQ is hard to make out down below the non equalized bottom end of a small FR unit on a narrow baffle.
The Goldwoods review pretty well there on the PE product page. On guy is reporting response to 32Hz from singles in very large sealed cabinets. These are most likely to sound adequate up to their upper rolloff in case you wanted to try them, say, on a cheap serial crossover up beyond the vocal range (definitely real 2-way stuff, not really for FR forum material, but its OB and I'm thinking in print). One of my more recent revelations is that dust caps have very distinct effects on EQ, and the styles I find least offensive are either A), no dust cap, having been replaced with a phase plug or B) an inverted dust cap. Being one of the few OB appropriate drivers I can find that have inverted dust caps, I'm inclined to believe that they might sound really quite good, and being treated poly cones, they might even run full range with a polite rolloff up top. But used in our active setup here, maybe using our U and/or H baffle strategies, these might possibly dig down into the mid-high 30s.
Anyway, you'll notice that I'm building bass arrays here, not true line arrays. With drivers the size of any of our FRs, even my tiny RS100s, you're going to run into comb filtering pretty early on as the frequency rises. Now, I've not actually built anything that should theoretically create comb filtering, but more knowledgeable parties agree its there, at least showing up as an early rolloff up top, sometimes as a noticeably ragged early rolloff. I have, however, witnessed arrangements taking units with smooth midranges run in multiples and this always tends to result in a muddying of the midrange, so from experience I would recommend not doing it. Line arrays should be limited to bass unless you've got the proper drivers to achieve the right spacing (or more optimally, some long planars or ribbons to at least handle the high frequencies where combing is hardest to avoid).
Oh well, I think that's enough for now. I'll hand off the hot potato.
Kensai
Bluto said:
It would seem like a great buy.. There have been some good reports on this amp, and also a 6moons review I linked earlier here you can check out, seems worth every penny..
Anyhow as the thread title says, ''OB-What do we really all want?''
I want the most incredible detailed mids and highs, at a given price point and from one driver.
The most accurate and detailed bass that I've ever heard.
The ability to be very detailed and jaw dropping at low volumes as well as higher spl's, but I'm not so worried about high spl's as I listen at lower to moderate volumes and want my hearing to stay as healthy as possible into the years ( however many I have)..
Dave
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