I know I'm beating a dead horse because I've read several threads on t-amp partners. I still can't make up my mind though. I recently moved to North Africa and gave away all my audio gear (sad sad day) and I'm finding myself in a need of something because my laptop speakers just don't cut it. My wife wont let me spend much money so... my thought was a sonic impact t-amp and some FR speakers.
My first thought was to try the TB 1337SA, but they are out of stock and wont be in before a budy of mine comes to visit (he'll be brining them to me) Then I thought maybe I should try the 4" bamboon. Only problem is I live in an apt and have no place to build cabs. I have no idea how much its going to cost to get some boxes made. Labor here is cheap, but I hear wood isn't. Point being $50 each driver might be pushing it with SAF, although I'm willing to deal with that if I have too. I then looked at the TB W4 1052sd. It's about half the price, but if there's a significant performance drop then I'll buy.. and deal with the wife later.
I've also checked out some Fostex drivers, but in all honestly I don't know what to go with. I've always liked to hear before I buy in the past, but thats not really an option here. I'm thinking small sealed enclosures. I listen to just about everything and I guess at the moment the 1052's are in the lead. Thanks for any input and feel free to suggest whatever as long as its $50 or less a driver.
Bruce
My first thought was to try the TB 1337SA, but they are out of stock and wont be in before a budy of mine comes to visit (he'll be brining them to me) Then I thought maybe I should try the 4" bamboon. Only problem is I live in an apt and have no place to build cabs. I have no idea how much its going to cost to get some boxes made. Labor here is cheap, but I hear wood isn't. Point being $50 each driver might be pushing it with SAF, although I'm willing to deal with that if I have too. I then looked at the TB W4 1052sd. It's about half the price, but if there's a significant performance drop then I'll buy.. and deal with the wife later.
I've also checked out some Fostex drivers, but in all honestly I don't know what to go with. I've always liked to hear before I buy in the past, but thats not really an option here. I'm thinking small sealed enclosures. I listen to just about everything and I guess at the moment the 1052's are in the lead. Thanks for any input and feel free to suggest whatever as long as its $50 or less a driver.
Bruce
All the TBs are good choices for small sealed or small ported boxes IMO. I have built a few small boxes with TB both three and four inch dirvers and they all sound very similar. You can always add a small sub later as an upgrade if you want.
Fostex are great but only in larger boxes IMO. If you can live with larger cabs then go for the Fostex because they are more efficient and provide a more lifelike (but more forward) presentation overall. Again, add a sub as an upgrade in the future.
Pick your poison but you are on the right track.
Godzilla
Fostex are great but only in larger boxes IMO. If you can live with larger cabs then go for the Fostex because they are more efficient and provide a more lifelike (but more forward) presentation overall. Again, add a sub as an upgrade in the future.
Pick your poison but you are on the right track.
Godzilla
How about using the Pioneer B20FU20-51FW or "B20" (available at http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-045) at $24.50 each? The driver seems to be widely available so you might be able to find a distributer 'relatively' nearby. Its sensitive and there are a variety of proven designs for it including a TL by Nelson Pass, the G Chang, Half Chang, and Curvy Chang family (at frugal-horn.com), GM's MLTL design, or the Metronome. It will also work well in a simple sealed cab (1.0 ft3 or larger).
The only drawback that many have noted about the B20 is a need for a helper tweeter such as the Dayton ND20FB neo dome. The much more expensive Fostex FE207E is a drop in replacement for the B20 in many designs if you feel the need to upgrade in the future.
The only drawback that many have noted about the B20 is a need for a helper tweeter such as the Dayton ND20FB neo dome. The much more expensive Fostex FE207E is a drop in replacement for the B20 in many designs if you feel the need to upgrade in the future.
I think those are a little too big. These will mostly be pc speakers. I did find a design that uses that tweeter with the TB 1052SD and was thinking about using it. It raises the total costs by $50 though and I'm not sure thats worth it. Any thoughts on this design?
http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/amethyst/amethyst.htm
Thanks for the input so far.
http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/amethyst/amethyst.htm
Thanks for the input so far.
The new Dayton RS100S-8 on small OBs (mine right now are 20"W x 12"H bits of cutoff cardboard, perforated on the front so I could fold back ~7" wings on each side so they would sit on the table top without any additional effort on my part) sound fantastic driven by the Gen2 T-Amp. Crystal clear, top to bottom, really great balance once mounted on baffles and burnt in for 2-3 hours. With a touch of EQ on the PC side (most of which is a cut below 50Hz to keep the bass boost starting higher from causing distortion), I'm getting similar bass response, on crappier baffles as I was getting from my P10 EnABLed B20s, from a driver that is smaller than the B20's whizzer for about the same price. And let me just say that they are TINY. Nicely boxed, they come in at less than 6"^3. Oh, and they're really great looking, to boot.
Kensai
Kensai
The level from my E-Mu 0404 card isn't terribly high, either, so I do have to turn it up to maybe 80% in some instances (like DVDs of old TV anime; they're recorded pretty quietly), but in the nearfield with most music, 40-50% volume is fine and 100% is right there at the line of "earsplitting". Away from the desk, I find my default music listening level to be good "ambient" level music for my finished basement/office (about 24'x12' w/7.5' ceiling), and I can set the whole room rocking at well less than 90% (like when I'm using the space to workout or when playing Wii games which I usually do standing up several feet further away from the monitor than I usually sit when working).
I love the sound of this combo. I prefer it to pairing them with my new Panny XR-57 receiver (digital amps), even though it gives me 4-5x the power and dual amping capability. On OB, in this environment, I prefer this pairing to my P10 treated B20s (which, admittedly got way out of whack on OB, post treatment; they're much happier in the sealed cabs in the living room upstairs, having now really come into their own). In fact, I'm going to say that the RS100S-8s are really OB drivers. They sim okay in a sealed box (pretty small one at that), but they present the most lush OB image of anything I've played with, period. If you're wanting to go with actual box enclosures and still want some reasonably low bass, you might go with the 4ohm version in an EBS alignment of some sort.
Kensai
I love the sound of this combo. I prefer it to pairing them with my new Panny XR-57 receiver (digital amps), even though it gives me 4-5x the power and dual amping capability. On OB, in this environment, I prefer this pairing to my P10 treated B20s (which, admittedly got way out of whack on OB, post treatment; they're much happier in the sealed cabs in the living room upstairs, having now really come into their own). In fact, I'm going to say that the RS100S-8s are really OB drivers. They sim okay in a sealed box (pretty small one at that), but they present the most lush OB image of anything I've played with, period. If you're wanting to go with actual box enclosures and still want some reasonably low bass, you might go with the 4ohm version in an EBS alignment of some sort.
Kensai
so if I went OB you would suggest the 8ohm version and if i go small sealed you would recomend the 4ohm or would they work OB too. I honestly have never tried OB so I know nothing about it, but since I have to pay somebody to build my boxes OB might be an easier way to go. I want that amp too (the panasonic) but my wife wont let me get one.
Auto -
2 not mentioned - cheaper as well.
Pioneer A11EC80. Guys have been having good luck with BIBs using these, me thinks a small Horn would work as well.
TB W4-657SH. This driver near to never gets mentioned and I've used it in a number of configurations from little bass reflex to TL to Horn and have been amazed with all configurations. Some say weak in highs, I disagree.
Kensai - Thanks for continued report on little Dayton , good info.
Bluto
2 not mentioned - cheaper as well.
Pioneer A11EC80. Guys have been having good luck with BIBs using these, me thinks a small Horn would work as well.
TB W4-657SH. This driver near to never gets mentioned and I've used it in a number of configurations from little bass reflex to TL to Horn and have been amazed with all configurations. Some say weak in highs, I disagree.
Kensai - Thanks for continued report on little Dayton , good info.
Bluto
The 4ohm will work in OB. Anything will. The main thing to look at is the Qts of a given driver. A high Qts driver, like .7 or higher, is really only going to be good for OB (or IB or a really large sealed enclosure). What the high Qts is going to do is cause a rise in response as the driver approaches its resonant frequency. This "hump" in the bass response is what counteracts the natural OB rolloff starting at the frequency whose wavelength matches the width of the baffle, giving the appearance of being flat further down. A lower Qts driver in OB will start rolling off earlier, and while, like in this case, the lower Qts driver may have a lower Fs, and thus should be able to produce more bass, its already rolling off higher up and has nothing to counteract that. A lower Qts driver can sound good in OB, but will require EQ and more amplifier to reach its potential.
I wouldn't bother worrying about one of the Panny XR receivers for desktop/laptop setup. The T-Amp sounds significantly better on a critical listen with good, clear speakers. Save the receiver purchase for the next generation of units for your HT (or at least your living room; it'll be great for family/TV use).
The Pioneer A11s are good, especially for the price. I've built a pair of BiBs for them for a buddy, and he's been more than satisfied with them as 2.0 for his very large (not to mention very high ceilinged) living room, DVD watching, video game playing space. They are pretty forgiving (sounded okay raw sitting on the desk while I was breaking them in), but also a bit bright, even after 50+ hours of play and the huge bass boost from the BiBs. They are a bit uneven up top, though I was much less inclined to add a supertweet or EQ the top end than I was with my Pio B20s, which are much more mellow all around in direct comparison. However, I'm guessing that BiBs are going to be too big and too pricey/hard to make considering what you've said. I've seen a set of DIYer made measurements that don't look anything like the specs on the Parts Express site, and having had them in hand, I'm more inclined to believe those over the published ones. Using those, I'd recommend a 11.5 liter vented enclosure tuned to 62Hz or so. That'll get you pretty solid down to 55Hz or so and be decent for music. I can't really recommend them sealed or OB as you won't get anything under 100Hz, and depending on how you do it, you might not get much of anything under 150Hz.
And that pretty much puts me at the edge of my experience. I've had OBs using some Kenwood bicone 6"x9" car audio drivers that supposedly had a Qts of around 2 (that's 2.0, not 0.2) but apparently also had a resonance around 82Hz which is way high for such big cones, so they rattled the crap out of my desk around 90Hz, but needed serious EQ to get below 70Hz. I've had Pio B20, stock, phase plugged, and finally full blown P10 modded on similar baffles and they were more stable out to 70Hz or so, but still petered out about the same area as the Kenwoods, regardless of EQ (please note that I'm getting response within a few Hz of either with the RS100s with considerably less EQ). These, however, do really well in sealed enclosures in the 25-30 liter area and match up well with those 5/8" Dayton dome tweeters on 2uF caps.
I have no experience with TB drivers, though I am very interested in several of them, especially the 4" bamboo and that new 4" flat, aluminum honeycomb job. Both would probably want a vented enclosure or maybe a BiB to really be adequate on the bottom end.
Good luck and enjoy.
Kensai
I wouldn't bother worrying about one of the Panny XR receivers for desktop/laptop setup. The T-Amp sounds significantly better on a critical listen with good, clear speakers. Save the receiver purchase for the next generation of units for your HT (or at least your living room; it'll be great for family/TV use).
The Pioneer A11s are good, especially for the price. I've built a pair of BiBs for them for a buddy, and he's been more than satisfied with them as 2.0 for his very large (not to mention very high ceilinged) living room, DVD watching, video game playing space. They are pretty forgiving (sounded okay raw sitting on the desk while I was breaking them in), but also a bit bright, even after 50+ hours of play and the huge bass boost from the BiBs. They are a bit uneven up top, though I was much less inclined to add a supertweet or EQ the top end than I was with my Pio B20s, which are much more mellow all around in direct comparison. However, I'm guessing that BiBs are going to be too big and too pricey/hard to make considering what you've said. I've seen a set of DIYer made measurements that don't look anything like the specs on the Parts Express site, and having had them in hand, I'm more inclined to believe those over the published ones. Using those, I'd recommend a 11.5 liter vented enclosure tuned to 62Hz or so. That'll get you pretty solid down to 55Hz or so and be decent for music. I can't really recommend them sealed or OB as you won't get anything under 100Hz, and depending on how you do it, you might not get much of anything under 150Hz.
And that pretty much puts me at the edge of my experience. I've had OBs using some Kenwood bicone 6"x9" car audio drivers that supposedly had a Qts of around 2 (that's 2.0, not 0.2) but apparently also had a resonance around 82Hz which is way high for such big cones, so they rattled the crap out of my desk around 90Hz, but needed serious EQ to get below 70Hz. I've had Pio B20, stock, phase plugged, and finally full blown P10 modded on similar baffles and they were more stable out to 70Hz or so, but still petered out about the same area as the Kenwoods, regardless of EQ (please note that I'm getting response within a few Hz of either with the RS100s with considerably less EQ). These, however, do really well in sealed enclosures in the 25-30 liter area and match up well with those 5/8" Dayton dome tweeters on 2uF caps.
I have no experience with TB drivers, though I am very interested in several of them, especially the 4" bamboo and that new 4" flat, aluminum honeycomb job. Both would probably want a vented enclosure or maybe a BiB to really be adequate on the bottom end.
Good luck and enjoy.
Kensai
I'm leaning towards the RS100 4 ohm. I always thought it would be fun to try bowls as enclosures and I found these that look like they might work. Like OB I've never tried bowl enclosures so let me know if yall see any red flags. I'm usually just a rectangular box mdf kinda guy.
http://www.target.com/Acacia-Salad-...?ie=UTF8&index=target&rh=k:wooden bowl&page=1
http://www.target.com/Acacia-Salad-...?ie=UTF8&index=target&rh=k:wooden bowl&page=1
You mean like take a pair of bowl, marry them at the lip somehow and make them into an enclosure? I've seen that around here somewhere. Guy used more normal shaped bowls, fashioned bands of wood from something darker to form the connection, and once the driver cutout was made in the bottom of one bowl and the connectors installed in the other, they looked like they might have been perfect spheres of wood before the speakers intruded. Reported great sound. Red flags are mainly concerned with the enclosure shape. You should have great imaging, but you'll have very early baffle step loss. The RS100s are already low sensitivity, so a BSC circuit (and I would NOT be the gut to come to for advice on those; been avoiding them like the plague since I got into this hobby) would just exacerbate that problem, at which point I'm pretty sure the T-amp would start to choke. Even with BSC filters, you're still likely going to need a sub to go with this sort of enclosure. Could be very nice, but now we're straying from the simple FR stereo setup and watching the price rise quickly.
As for the size of the OB, you can make it any size you want. This is not a critical issue. You need some sort of baffle, but even if you decided to go all out on baffle size, you hit a point of diminishing returns pretty quickly as the wavelength at a given frequency rises exponentially as the frequency drops. Mine are 20" because that's how wide the cardboard flaps I cut off some broken down boxes just happened to be that size. There was no plan. Now I did score them so I could fold 7" back on each side and that was planned since MJK in his last article on OB used a similar depth on some U-baffles he was testing. They're not folded straight back, though, just kinda 45 degree angles or so since they are basically pressing up against obstacles in my desktop environment to keep them bent back. So the baffles are only about 6" across the front, maybe 10" across tip to tip at the back in a sort of trapezoidal footprint, maybe 3"-4" deep. I'd recommend probably at least 8" across the front, probably more like 12", and then wings going straight back 3"-7", but probably leaving the top open. These are just guesses based on experience, I haven't actually tried any of these geometries specifically. It seems pretty easy to get below 80Hz of of these things on a small desktop OB, maybe even down close to 70Hz without EQ, at which point you're beating most commercial PC 2.0 systems, and the ones you're not, you're going to be stomping all over in sound quality and most likely price.
Kensai
As for the size of the OB, you can make it any size you want. This is not a critical issue. You need some sort of baffle, but even if you decided to go all out on baffle size, you hit a point of diminishing returns pretty quickly as the wavelength at a given frequency rises exponentially as the frequency drops. Mine are 20" because that's how wide the cardboard flaps I cut off some broken down boxes just happened to be that size. There was no plan. Now I did score them so I could fold 7" back on each side and that was planned since MJK in his last article on OB used a similar depth on some U-baffles he was testing. They're not folded straight back, though, just kinda 45 degree angles or so since they are basically pressing up against obstacles in my desktop environment to keep them bent back. So the baffles are only about 6" across the front, maybe 10" across tip to tip at the back in a sort of trapezoidal footprint, maybe 3"-4" deep. I'd recommend probably at least 8" across the front, probably more like 12", and then wings going straight back 3"-7", but probably leaving the top open. These are just guesses based on experience, I haven't actually tried any of these geometries specifically. It seems pretty easy to get below 80Hz of of these things on a small desktop OB, maybe even down close to 70Hz without EQ, at which point you're beating most commercial PC 2.0 systems, and the ones you're not, you're going to be stomping all over in sound quality and most likely price.
Kensai
This is great, I'm learning a lot, so even though the bowls I'm looking at have a rather flat bottom and will be more of an hour glass shape when glued together they'll still have the problem because they're round? The bottom is 6" across so things wont drop right off imidiately after the lip of the speaker. If its still a problem would it be resolved if I went with a more square bowl like these?
http://www.target.com/Mango-Wood-Sq...ie=UTF8&index=target&rh=k:square bowls&page=1
Or should I just give up on the bowl thing? It would just make life easier.
http://www.target.com/Mango-Wood-Sq...ie=UTF8&index=target&rh=k:square bowls&page=1
Or should I just give up on the bowl thing? It would just make life easier.
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