Help me pick an enclosure project for EVs

[kvk]

Well I figure instead of being easy on myself and starting with a pre-designed project for some Fostex, I'd do something odd ball.

I bought a pair of ElectroVoice Wolverine LT-12 off Ebay. They came yesterday and they work They are a 12" woofer with a whizzer and a little horn tweeter in the center with an L-pad. They're basically a cheaper version of the 12trxb.

So, now I have to decide what to do with them.

Practicality requirements (WAF and also what I think will keep the den nice looking so they have to fit on either side of the fireplace).

2 ft^2 footprint max (so 1x2' or 2x1' or anything like that.)

48 tall max (don't want them to be taller than the mantel is high).

And here's the wildcard. I saw a pair of LT-12 with no tweeters on Ebay (effectively LS-12) and put a teaser bid of $9 in. Ended up getting them for $9 + 17 shipping. So, I have extra woofer/mids too.

I hate long post so I'll post more details in follow-ups to break things up.

 

[kvk]

Options

Possible Designs Types--

Bass Reflex, example specs like –
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=52282&highlight=LT-12
6ft^3 box w 30 in^2 area by 3.4 in. long port.

MLTL like—
http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/Proposals.html#Fostex%20FE168S%20ML%20TL

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

ML TQWT folded like—
http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/Proposals.html#Fostex%20FE164

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

All those would fit the 2ft^2 footprint although a traditional BR would to short and a bit bigger area.

Open Baffle of some sort --
Initially I thought this would exceed my floor space as many of the designs I see have 3' wide baffles. But maybe I could do something with a 2' baffle or maybe a 2' baffle with 1' fold-out wings or something like that.

I have read MK's MathCad sheet tutorial and played with the sample. I'm not adverse to buying the models if they may help me with this process. Heck, most of the fun will be engineering. I'll take me half the summer to find time to build them and then I'll have 15 minutes a day to listen to them.

 

[kvk]

Theile/Small Driver Parameters

I read a procedure online for determining T/S params.
http://sound.westhost.com/tsp.htm

But I may or may not take the time. I might not do better than what I've found online. Maybe I'll at least check the Fs and Qts.

I searched diyAudio and AA and found some samples I might work with--

From--
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=87767&highlight=wolverine
Revc = 5.3515 ohms
Fs = 59.1659 Hz
Zmax = 18.0568 ohms
Qes = 1.6780
Qms = 3.9838
Qts = 1.1807
Le = 0.2776 mH (at 1 kHz)
Diam = 259.0800 mm ( 10.2000 in )
ConeArea =52717.8422 mm^2( 81.7128 in^2)
Vas = 99.8152 L ( 3.5249 ft^3)
BL = 5.7921 N/A
Mms = 28.2967 g
Cms = 255.7180 uM/N
Kms = 3910.5574 N/M
Rms = 2.6405 R mechanical
Efficiency = 1.1877 %
Sensitivity= 92.7470 dB @1W/1m
Sensitivity= 94.4931 dB @2.83Vrms/1m

From—
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=66465&highlight=wolverine
[EV - LT12 sample #1]
Fs = 57.000 Hz
Zmax = 38.153 ohms
Re = 5.330 ohms
Zdb3 = 15.224
F1 = 52.771 Hz
F2 = 64.874 Hz
Qms = 13.452
Qes = 1.879
Qts = 1.649
Le = 0.0873 mH
Sd = 591.023 sq.cm
Cms = 0.2356 mm/N
Mms = 0.03309 kg
BL = 5.797 Tm
n0 = 1.10577 %
Vas = 116.397 liters
SPL = 92.455 dBSPL 1W/1M
[EV - LT12 sample #2]
Fs = 60.000 Hz
Zmax = 26.155 ohms
Re = 5.830 ohms
Zdb3 = 13.655
F1 = 54.653 Hz
F2 = 72.865 Hz
Qms = 7.717
Qes = 1.720
Qts = 1.407
Le = 0.1396 mH
Sd = 591.023 sq.cm
Cms = 0.2736 mm/N
Mms = 0.02571 kg
BL = 5.732 Tm
n0 = 1.63633 %
Vas = 135.172 liters
SPL = 94.157

From— http://www.geocities.com/tadgesualdo/12trxbTSparameters.html
LS12 (LS12 is similar to LT12)
Fs: 58.35
Re:6.746
Qms: 7.722
Qes: 2.217
Qts: 1.722
Cms: 0.342 mm/N
Mms: 21.74g
Sd: 557 sq. cm
Le: 0.2 mH
BL: 4.925 N/A
Vas 151 liters
1w SPL: 95dbs

Fs of three different LS12's
Fs A: 58
Fs B: 47
Fs C: 60

 

[kvk]

Wildcard extra drivers

I mentioned the wildcard is I have extra LT-12 sans tweeter (effectively LS-12s) coming.

I saw this--
http://www.geocities.com/tadgesualdo/Speakerplans2.html

I suppose I could do something like that with two drivers, LT-12 in front and LS-12 on top. Don't know how I would model it thought. Even if I buy the MK worksheets, I don't think they do dual drivers. Or maybe a bipole design but the speaker will be close to a wall so drivers in back are not a good idea.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[kvk]

Maybe the easiest, fun, hack at it, try something option.

Another option is Open Ballfe with two drivers. That might be cool as if they are narrow (2'), that might help bass. That may the the easier out-of-the-box project to play around. The cost is two 2x4 sheets of MDF and some scrap wood for braces.

One refinement I was thinking of maybe I could take the sans tweeter drivers and put a coil on them at the baffle step point. So instead of using a BSC to cut mid/high, I'd use an extra low driver to boost bass. Don't know what that would do to impedance. I'm going to start with a SS Kenwood KR-7040 receiver which probably could care less. Eventually I hope to build a tube amp in the 5-7W range.

 

[John L]

Gosh, I'm not sure what to recommend, but you are on the right track, it seems to me. Perhaps a TL may not be the best bet, since TLs work better with smaller drivers.

Do you have any software where you can help determine enclosure sizes? Maybe some of the more seasoned regulars can help you out here.

 

[MJL21193]

Re: Theile/Small Driver Parameters

I read a procedure online for determining T/S params.
http://sound.westhost.com/tsp.htm

But I may or may not take the time. I might not do better than what I've found online. Maybe I'll at least check the Fs and Qts.

Hi,
You should find a way to measure these. Fs is not very important, but the Qts is. The T/S samples you found don't look encouraging.

 

[Scottmoose]

Agreed. Q is through the roof = not a great choice for Qw or TL loading if you want it to be of vaguely manageable proportions. OB is about the only reasonable option you've got.

 

[kvk]

Agreed. Q is through the roof = not a great choice for Qw or TL loading if you want it to be of vaguely manageable proportions. OB is about the only reasonable option you've got.

I believe the EV drivers were originally used in large BRs, somewhat squat that look like pieces of furniture. I tried some of the BR calculators on the web and they don't even work with Q > 0.8.

Again, OB sure would be easy and cheap and I could always do something else in the future without wasting a ton of time and money.

 

[John L]

Something else to ponder. When were these E-Vs made? Remember, Mr. Small did not publish the second half of the Thiele/Small series of revelations until he published his Doctoral thesis in September, 1972. Up until then loudspeaker parameters were still being straightened out, and others also contributed to the information.

Anyway, Dr Thiele's 1961 work was not known throughout the audio world, and J.E.Benson's articles did not come together, until after Mr. Small's doctoral thesis put it all together. This all occured in Australia, where all three worked and were in contact with each other.

I mention this because speakers made prior to this date were not built with T/S parameters in mind. They were simply a play by ear proposition, as were most drivers several years AFTER 1972.

Consequently, if your speakers are truly vintage, T/S measurements will tend to be mute. In other words, you will most likely have to play things by ear, since you cannot rely on numbers that were not taken into consideration anyway.

 

[dave_gerecke]

Hello kvk, you could try building a copy of the E-V Aristocrat cabinet. This is one of the cabs that the drivers you have were used in. They are a corner loaded cab a little over 2ft tall. I have one cabinet in my basement, sans speaker and baffle. I can't remember where I found the plans, but I know that they used to be available on the 'net. I have a copy as a jpg, on my PC, but it's too large to attach to my post. Drop me an email if you are interested, and I will send the file to you.

Peace,

Dave

 

[GM]

I mention this because speakers made prior to this date were not built with T/S parameters in mind. They were simply a play by ear proposition, as were most drivers several years AFTER 1972.

Consequently, if your speakers are truly vintage, T/S measurements will tend to be mute. In other words, you will most likely have to play things by ear, since you cannot rely on numbers that were not taken into consideration anyway.

I can't comment on all driver/speaker manufacturers, but the pioneers of audio and those that followed at Altec, JBL, Siemens, etc., were electrical and mechanical engineers with a keen understanding of how to design them using all the values that T/S specs are comprised of and why there's been so little real technological advancement since then.

What T/S has done is taken the complex formulas and measurements that historically were only available to those well versed on the subject and reduced them over time to easy to use formulas and software that requires no real knowledge of the subject.

Bottom line, they designed drivers for specific apps just as they do today except with slide rules and less test gear, just the criteria was different, so their T/S specs are just as valid as any other driver's and will perform as predicted.

GM

 

[John L]

Try this one.

And try this thread too.

 

[zobsky]

Here's my el-cheapo method of determining the T/S specs using ARTA . Give it a shot.

http://zobsky.blogspot.com/2008/01/simple-loudspeaker-measurement-jig-for.html

 

[kvk]

Try this one.

And try this thread too.

Cool, I did find old literature on the net but not the plans.

The Aristacrat's won't work because I don't have space in the corners but the Marquis might.

I'm thinking a small open baffle I can whip up in a weekend to try them out and then maybe a MR so the Marquis might be the ticket.

I saw these on ebay. I wouldn't buy them but I like the look. If I do a BR, maybe something in that style if I can get my woodworking skills up to snuff would be cool. I like that they look like 1950s era end tables...

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[kvk]

try this thread too. [/B]

Looked some more at the Marquis stuff at

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=101483&highlight=freddyi+marquis&r=&session=

I think I'd rather have the port in the front as I might use these against a wall. I'll have to research whether that would make a difference or if they were at the back, how much clearance I would need.

 

[GM]

The vent needs a boundary to load against for best blend in-room, so if up against the wall I recommend adapting it to floor loading and experiment to find the best spacing.

GM

 

[kvk]

The vent needs a boundary to load against for best blend in-room, so if up against the wall I recommend adapting it to floor loading and experiment to find the best spacing.

GM

So would three to four inches off the back wall work? I would think that'd be about the same as putting the vent on the bottom and raising the enclosure a few inches off the floor.

 

[GM]

It varies with the room and can be as little as 0.75" and beyond a few inches IIRC it has little benefit. Another option is to experiment with damping the vent to tone it down/roll it off a bit.

GM

 

[PeteMcK]

ARTA Jig

Zobsky - great jig, I'm building one as I speak...
can you please clarify - is the Line Out connection to line Out Left or Right (or doesn't it matter)?

(I'm not even going to use sockets & binding posts, just hard wire the plugs & crocodle clips....)

Thanks,
Pete McK