Is there such thing as the best rear loaded design for full range driver? I had a FE 166 on a folded transmission line or TQWT(?). I love the mid and the highs but miss the low and tight bass. Has the FE reach already its limit or are there better rear loaded design boxes for this purpose? If I will make another speaker should I decide first this time on box before choosing the sizes of the driver? I listen mostly to jass, pop, classical and a few of rock music. Please enlighten me on this matter as I don't want to be disapointed again.
No. There's no such thing as the best in anything. Everything's a compromise, not least of which being BLHs, which are in reality just BR boxes with extremely large tapered vents.
Try a BIB if you want the bass & can cope with a 6ft tall cabinet. If you want something more complicated, Ron's A166, or Bob's Dalek immediately spring to mind.
Try a BIB if you want the bass & can cope with a 6ft tall cabinet. If you want something more complicated, Ron's A166, or Bob's Dalek immediately spring to mind.
I agree with Scott here....
There is no "best" but there might be a "Best for the situation"
Reading your preferences and current driver, the BIB was the first thing that popped in my head. From what people have said, the BIB provides excellent low end and the driver itself is pretty awesome at everything from 200hz or so on up. Of course, I have also read that you can monkey with the enclosure a bit once it is done to get that "sweet spot" worked out.
Now if you can't handle a tall enclosure (I couldn't) then the field gets huge as to your options.
I hate to ask the question that seems to be sinful on the FR forum, but would it work better to have a sub to carry that bottom end? I do this because I use my speakers for both music and HT. Of course, I like some loud bass sometimes and I don't want to destroy my Fostex drivers trying to push them so hard.
If it is strictly music, I would say to look for a cabinet and forget the sub idea.
Oh yeah! The A166 does seem like one heckuva design to work with too..... Lower height and I am betting similar or more low end than the BIB in the right room.
Got some more details on the room you are working with and the WAF issues that may arise? that might help for others who want to make suggestions too.
Take care,
Robert
There is no "best" but there might be a "Best for the situation"
Reading your preferences and current driver, the BIB was the first thing that popped in my head. From what people have said, the BIB provides excellent low end and the driver itself is pretty awesome at everything from 200hz or so on up. Of course, I have also read that you can monkey with the enclosure a bit once it is done to get that "sweet spot" worked out.
Now if you can't handle a tall enclosure (I couldn't) then the field gets huge as to your options.
I hate to ask the question that seems to be sinful on the FR forum, but would it work better to have a sub to carry that bottom end? I do this because I use my speakers for both music and HT. Of course, I like some loud bass sometimes and I don't want to destroy my Fostex drivers trying to push them so hard.
If it is strictly music, I would say to look for a cabinet and forget the sub idea.
Oh yeah! The A166 does seem like one heckuva design to work with too..... Lower height and I am betting similar or more low end than the BIB in the right room.
Got some more details on the room you are working with and the WAF issues that may arise? that might help for others who want to make suggestions too.
Take care,
Robert
The A166 ain't going lower than an optimal BIB. But it will work in places the BIB won't be as happy with, and is of course a much more advanced design.
Why sinful to suggest a sub? It's perfectly sensible, although I'd always go with stereo woofers rather than a single one. Use the FR units as a wideband from 200Hz up, maybe add a supertweeter if you feel so disposed, and fill out the LF with dedicated woofers. That's a very good way to design a system.
Why sinful to suggest a sub? It's perfectly sensible, although I'd always go with stereo woofers rather than a single one. Use the FR units as a wideband from 200Hz up, maybe add a supertweeter if you feel so disposed, and fill out the LF with dedicated woofers. That's a very good way to design a system.
Why sinful to suggest a sub? It's perfectly sensible, although I'd always go with stereo woofers rather than a single one. Use the FR units as a wideband from 200Hz up, maybe add a supertweeter if you feel so disposed, and fill out the LF with dedicated woofers. That's a very good way to design a system.
I agree, however a great many out there in audioland try to make a sub extend to 200 or> hertz , most really wont do it and start a rapid fall beyond 80 Hz. A good long excursion woofer(12-18" dia) that can do a decent 30-250 hz would be my choice. Iffin it were me i would go with a BVR(bottom end) and an OB for 200-250 Hz on up.
OBs have a very spacious clean sound, but i miss the LF grunt provided by the A166. TC (RIP) once described one of his horns response as " a good paper cone 15". If done correctly a good 12-15" BVR (not a BR) and a good mid/high WR driver in an OB brings the best of both worlds together with simplicity,size and frontal area.
ron
(Add on) This is one of the many reasons i stopped development of the A206.
I agree, however a great many out there in audioland try to make a sub extend to 200 or> hertz , most really wont do it and start a rapid fall beyond 80 Hz. A good long excursion woofer(12-18" dia) that can do a decent 30-250 hz would be my choice. Iffin it were me i would go with a BVR(bottom end) and an OB for 200-250 Hz on up.
OBs have a very spacious clean sound, but i miss the LF grunt provided by the A166. TC (RIP) once described one of his horns response as " a good paper cone 15". If done correctly a good 12-15" BVR (not a BR) and a good mid/high WR driver in an OB brings the best of both worlds together with simplicity,size and frontal area.
ron
(Add on) This is one of the many reasons i stopped development of the A206.
Yep, you're talking my language there Ron. I like baffles, but I also like the bass a monopole can provide. The BVRs are a real favourite of mine these days -I like their simplicity & the scale to the soundstage they provide. Combine that with OB for everything from ~200Hz up and that'd be a heck of a system.
I like my subs
I am using a pair of 15" subs right now.
Out of curiosity, Scott, why do you always suggest stereo subs? I have never actually tried to do stereo positioning simply because of all the talk of room nodes, cancellation, etc. I have had my subs (Previous small sub and current larger band pass) settled right in between the main speakers. Of course, my subs have all been tuned lower and have only worked up to about 80hz max. I like my mains to get at least below 100hz and then I can blend in the sub below that. Of course, the way I have approached my subs is so low and using such sub standard speakers that I would never expect them to blend very well with high quality mains. I do suppose I could pull that off and the idea of the OB seems to me the most reasonable one when looking at "2-way" integration.
I say "sin" because of how many purists I have met who say no system is right if it has any x-over of any kind and a sub could never blend well with high end full range speakers. I have heard several subs work well with full rangers. I have even heard a few that I didn't know were there until they were turned off! That's what I like!
Take care,
Robert
I am using a pair of 15" subs right now.
Out of curiosity, Scott, why do you always suggest stereo subs? I have never actually tried to do stereo positioning simply because of all the talk of room nodes, cancellation, etc. I have had my subs (Previous small sub and current larger band pass) settled right in between the main speakers. Of course, my subs have all been tuned lower and have only worked up to about 80hz max. I like my mains to get at least below 100hz and then I can blend in the sub below that. Of course, the way I have approached my subs is so low and using such sub standard speakers that I would never expect them to blend very well with high quality mains. I do suppose I could pull that off and the idea of the OB seems to me the most reasonable one when looking at "2-way" integration.
I say "sin" because of how many purists I have met who say no system is right if it has any x-over of any kind and a sub could never blend well with high end full range speakers. I have heard several subs work well with full rangers. I have even heard a few that I didn't know were there until they were turned off! That's what I like!
Take care,
Robert
Yep, you're talking my language there Ron. I like baffles, but I also like the bass a monopole can provide. The BVRs are a real favourite of mine these days
Then lets start developing a BVR bottom end and a OB top.
I am willing to invest my time/energy. All i am stating is that something like the 206 or whatever can be made to perform damn well without the complexity of a horn. It all comes down to thinking on another plane.
ron
Then lets start developing a BVR bottom end and a OB top.
I am willing to invest my time/energy. All i am stating is that something like the 206 or whatever can be made to perform damn well without the complexity of a horn. It all comes down to thinking on another plane.
ron
You know what could be cool, is an OB and bottom designed as a system like your talking about, but have the OB slightly loaded somehow to control the driver and bring about some lower freq ,while still maintaining the virtues of the OB concept and sound goal..
As for the BIB cab, I think everyone should build one if only to hear how stupid good such a simple cab can sound, and then trade up from there if wanted.. Dave
As for the BIB cab, I think everyone should build one if only to hear how stupid good such a simple cab can sound, and then trade up from there if wanted.. Dave
DaveCan said:
Been there, done that the other year helping 'JohninCR' design a dipole waveguide. Once complete, he apparently pretty much 'retired' from DIY speaker building AFAIK, at least I haven't seen any postings of his WRT speaker design, so I wonder if he finally found his personal audio 'Holy Grail'. Then again, considering his locale, a tropical storm could have left him homeless. Anyway, IIRC it's buried in this Decware thread:
http://www.audiophiletalk.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1169188638/112#112
GM
He wasn't wrong either.
15in is fine up to the start of the midrange & arguably even up to 500Hz, providing you're using a driver with decent relative motor-power. Above that, then reducing to 10in - 12in isn't such a bad idea, but I don't like crossing that high anyway.
Hope he did find his 'holy grail' Greg. That'd be another one you've helped in that respect.
15in is fine up to the start of the midrange & arguably even up to 500Hz, providing you're using a driver with decent relative motor-power. Above that, then reducing to 10in - 12in isn't such a bad idea, but I don't like crossing that high anyway.
Hope he did find his 'holy grail' Greg. That'd be another one you've helped in that respect.
ronc said:
Well, since I've been suggesting 'FR' OB/monopole woofer designs for as long as I've been on the various FR forums I mostly agree, though I believe the pioneers of audio determined the best trade-off in initially choosing a 80 Hz XO point for multi-way speakers, apparently only switching over to a more compromising 125 Hz, then 300 Hz, 500 Hz and finally settling on 800 Hz as the upper acceptable limit to increase power handling of the then existing horn designs and allow smaller horns to be used where practical.
Unfortunately, few FR drivers can handle an 80 Hz XO or even 125 Hz at vanishingly low distortion, so all things considered, FWIW I found 300 - 500 Hz to be my upper limit depending on the FR driver used. This requires a woofer to have up to a usable 1 kHz BW and if long excursion to boot it will be an expensive one requiring a large cab AFAIK, so multiple smaller driver arrays seem a better choice overall regardless of loading scheme to support the large tweeter 'FR' drivers preferred here.
GM
larkinrulez said:
Musical instrument speaker design criteria is somewhat different than for HIFI sound reproduction, so I would caution anyone mixing the two without a decent understanding of both.
That said, per my previous response his suggestion is a valid one for some 'FR' OBs, just not for his stated reason per se WRT yours. Since the 207 runs out of excursion around 150 Hz, a decent prosound 15" would work fine with it.
GM
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