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Old 12th March 2008, 12:50 AM   #1
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Default WOW! I Am Getting Interested

I am new to full range speaker drivers. I've been reading threads here and it's getting real interesting!!

What are the advantages to a single full range driver vs conventional multi-driver speakers with crossovers? Right now I am listening to Maggy MMGs.

Can anyone suggest further reading? Are there any recommended projects I can explore online?
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Old 12th March 2008, 01:23 AM   #2
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Default Re: WOW! I Am Getting Interested

Quote:
Originally posted by JimOfOakCreek

What are the advantages to a single full range driver vs conventional multi-driver speakers with crossovers?
Advantages:

Avoid the response lobing inherent in multi-driver systems

Avoid most of the phase distortion problems around the crossover frequency in a passive crossover system

Avoid the extra complexity of active crossovers and bi/tri-amping in actively crossed over systems

Better wavefront reproduction (due to point sourcing) in surround systems, especially Ambisonics.

Disadvantages:

It's really bloody hard for one driver to reproduce 20-20k; every full range driver is a compromise. You get to pick the compromise you like best. That said, they also tend to be fantastic quality speakers...

Lower reproduction SPL, either due to low Xmax on high sensitivity drivers, or low sensitivity on high-xmax drivers.

The *really* good ones with no compromises cost $$$-- consider that the 'compromise' ;-)

I'm sure others will chime in.

Most folks here seem to use high-sensitivity drivers with small amps; this is the classic application. Personally I like the very-high excursion drivers (like the CSS FR125S) that can take alot of power, but are not very high sensitivity. It all depends on the compromise you like best. I can't enjoy 'more nuanced midrange' when there's nothing substantial under 100Hz ;-)
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Old 12th March 2008, 04:14 AM   #3
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Hi Jim,

Full Rangers - or FR's as you will see some post - are a very good way to get big bang for the $$$. For some they are a bit shy on the top end - so some will add a super tweeter. Other listeners prefer a bit more bottom end and will use a large FR - or perhaps add a bass speaker to the rig.

To get really excited read
http://www.quarter-wave.com/General/OB_Design.pdf

With a little bit of floor space and a cut up picnic bench (or outhouse door - what ever is laying around for use as a baffle) things can go to a very high level!
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Old 12th March 2008, 06:10 AM   #4
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default c2thomas is right on the mark....

the link posted is to a reportedly excellent "multi-way" open baffle project. MJ King is pretty much a "genius" and has provide a means to model almost any type of loudspeaker via his MathCad worksheets.

You can do much worse than follow his design. The drivers suggested are quite reasonable in price too.But not a single driver or "FR" design.

I've become a FR convert over the course of a couple of years. I simply can't believe how good even moderately priced ones sound, for all the reasons previously listed. I do not use super tweeters at all, but some have complained about the lack of sparkle on top. My ears must be on the way out...

and bass is not a big concern for me. I've always felt that if I could not afford good bass, then I'd live with bass at all. I use small monitor style speakers---Castle Durham 900 s daily, but deep bass is not one of their strong suits.

And not all FR designs are open baffle, there are good examples of enclosed drivers using fullrange drivers.

And you should get interested, but within limits. As you are listening to Maggy MMGs, then the idea of some bass, but with no physical impact is not foreign to you.

Do a search for JE Labs open baffle. If you have the room really very good (I have a pair).

stew
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Old 12th March 2008, 06:13 AM   #5
Daveze is offline Daveze  Australia
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I too have become interested in this Full range hoo-ha...

The problem I have is that the more I read, the more overwhelmed with options I get. Along the lines of one of the OP's questions, is there a particular project that make for a good intro, so that I can focus my attention upon it more than others?

I'd rather not try an OB (as some recommend) as I don't have quite the space, I was thinking either a half-chang or a Calhoun...
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Old 12th March 2008, 07:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daveze
The problem I have is that the more I read, the more overwhelmed with options I get.


I and a host of others have made that a reality... when i started out in FR (4 years ago or so?) there was a dearth of designs.

1st things to consider are what amp? what music? how big is the room? how much WAF do you need to consider? Budget?

Using those criteria you eliminate designs that clearly don't fit. Then toss the one's that don't appeal. Then ask your significant other which ones they like....

dave
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Old 12th March 2008, 07:54 AM   #7
Daveze is offline Daveze  Australia
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I was hoping that you were going to ask me those questions...

Amp: Chipamp (relatively complete), F4 (not close to complete), Aleph 30 (even further from complete).

Music: everything but Country & Western. Hmm, too broad...I listen to a fair bit of heavy/alternative rock (Incubus, Coheed, RATM, System of a Down) and similar quantities of jazz (Miles, Coltrane, Mingus, Monk, etc).

Room: one is small and mine, the other is large and common. I'd prefer to build something for the room first, then the common room second.

WAF: minimal (no wife). Sharing a house with several mates and the GF loves similar music and enjoys listening.

Budget: middle of the road. I don't want the cheapest option, at risk of it not sounding good enough to warrant further investigations, nor so expensive that I lose lots of money if I give/stuff up.

Hope that helps.

Josh
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Old 12th March 2008, 08:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daveze
I was hoping that you were going to ask me those questions...

Amp: Chipamp (relatively complete), F4 (not close to complete), Aleph 30 (even further from complete).

Music: everything but Country & Western. Hmm, too broad...I listen to a fair bit of heavy/alternative rock (Incubus, Coheed, RATM, System of a Down) and similar quantities of jazz (Miles, Coltrane, Mingus, Monk, etc).

Room: one is small and mine, the other is large and common. I'd prefer to build something for the room first, then the common room second.

WAF: minimal (no wife). Sharing a house with several mates and the GF loves similar music and enjoys listening.

Budget: middle of the road. I don't want the cheapest option, at risk of it not sounding good enough to warrant further investigations, nor so expensive that I lose lots of money if I give/stuff up.

Hope that helps.

Josh
OK Josh, that helps a lot. From your reference to heavy rock / alternative rock, where transient response & decent LF heft is pretty much a requirement, I'd probably be looking toward the 6 1/2in - 8in units for the larger room.

From a personal POV, I'd veer toward horns or waveguides. Something like a BIB pipe-horn might do just the ticket. They're tall, but footprint isn't huge, especially as, being notionally corner-horns, they're usually out of the way near (surprise!) corners. 30Hz pout of them, easy, especially for the larger drivers. They're also about as simple as it gets to build, the cabinet open at the top, and a single sloping internal panel. The attached is a picture of an example with the Fostex FE206E IIRC. See www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp if you're interested. There are more advanced designs out there of course, but this is a cheap & very effective way of entering into the FR driver arena, and they give startlingly good performance for such an astonishing simple box design, and I reckon they'd suit your needs nicely.

For the smaller room, the worlds your oyster really. There are loads of options available; I'd probably go for something using a 3 - 4 1/2in driver, loaded in the way you find most appealing (horn, aperiodic, Onken, OB, ML TQWT, BR etc), with dedicated bass drivers on the low-end, giving a nice, compact & versatile system. Theoretically & to an extent in pracice, you can take small drivers low, but LF transient response won't be great -they just can't shift the quantities of air rock (for example) tends to need.
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Old 12th March 2008, 09:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scottmoose
OK Josh, that helps a lot. From your reference to heavy rock / alternative rock, where transient response & decent LF heft is pretty much a requirement, I'd probably be looking toward the 6 1/2in - 8in units for the larger room.
That was where i was heading... here is some boilerplate filled with generalities that might also be helpful.

Choosing a FR means you have to choose your tradeoffs... i'll just tick off a general ones ...

1/ bigger drivers tend to be more efficient than little ones (which mean they play louder with a small amp)

2/ smaller drivers usually have better mids & tops.

3/ bigger drivers go lower & tend to be able to do dynamics better

4/ small drivers usually go in smaller boxes, with higher WAF, and lower cost to build

5/ bigger drivers tend to cost more (and i haven't meet a driver i can't improve)

6/ and a corollary to 5... a modded small driver for the price of a similar priced large driver will usually have more finese. (disclousure: i sell modded drivers, but i also fe=reely help diyers mod their own)


dave
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Old 13th March 2008, 01:30 AM   #10
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default Daveze...

er based on your criterion, I'd suggest one of planet10's designs, a "monolith" type, either the Demetri (which I have built and really like) or the Mileva (the smaller sister to the Demetris), these are boxed enclosures that don't really sound like boxes. A set of Fonkens may also be nice in your bedroom. I quite like these and could easily live with these as an only pair of loudspeakers.

Both have quite reasonable bass extension considering they are full rangers. Milevas in a small room would be really quite nice, and the step up in enclosure and driver size with the Demetris will give you more bass output.
These are truly "fullrange" designs using a single driver.

This is different than full bandwidth designs which are multi-ways, using a minimum of 2 drivers per side.

The chip amp you are using has what amount of power?

I still maintain the JE Labs style OB in a large room with decent FR drivers can sound excellent. I love mine.

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