I'd been following these from the onset and bought 4 of them a month ago.
Finally got around to giving them initial test tonight. Simply wired them and powered up.
I'm real disappointed. These take a whole bunch of power to get any volume out of. I put an easy 30 watts to them. In my mind they sound no better than TB's 4"er that sell for 1/3 the cost that I'd purchased to see what a decent 4" could do and the TB's easily play near to twice as loud.
Will volume increase dramatically within an enclosure? Can't see why.
After all I'd read I expected the Cat's Pajamas.
Your experience appreciated.
Bluto
Side note ..... I'd asked awhile back if anyone was familiar with the Oakton brand (now defunct) and not much known by members. I bought a pair anyhow (NOS). These things are dynamite 8" FR's !! If you run into them , buy them!
Finally got around to giving them initial test tonight. Simply wired them and powered up.
I'm real disappointed. These take a whole bunch of power to get any volume out of. I put an easy 30 watts to them. In my mind they sound no better than TB's 4"er that sell for 1/3 the cost that I'd purchased to see what a decent 4" could do and the TB's easily play near to twice as loud.
Will volume increase dramatically within an enclosure? Can't see why.
After all I'd read I expected the Cat's Pajamas.
Your experience appreciated.
Bluto
Side note ..... I'd asked awhile back if anyone was familiar with the Oakton brand (now defunct) and not much known by members. I bought a pair anyhow (NOS). These things are dynamite 8" FR's !! If you run into them , buy them!
Wrong way to evaluate these drivers. I used to sell loudspeaker drivers and used to test the drivers before they shipped and I can tell you none sounded good just hooked up. A baffle and an enclosure makes a HUGE difference..... even a cardboard box with some stuffing.
Get yourself a good designed enclosure and try again. These are very good fullrange drivers and I'm not a fullrange freak. A bit low on the SPL and power handling but very good sound.
I noticed you have 4 and if going bipolar then the SPL will rise as well as the power handling. Besides, watts are cheap these days.
Do not pass GO until you have tried them in an enclosure.
Get yourself a good designed enclosure and try again. These are very good fullrange drivers and I'm not a fullrange freak. A bit low on the SPL and power handling but very good sound.
I noticed you have 4 and if going bipolar then the SPL will rise as well as the power handling. Besides, watts are cheap these days.
Do not pass GO until you have tried them in an enclosure.
Yes, these have abysmal efficiency, it's the price you pay for a small driver that can go low. Anyway, in a sim the FR125S is a drop in replacement with an adapter ring for a RS 40-1354 MLTL I did years ago for a buddy that a bunch of fairly serious local DIYers were pretty impressed with, so thanks to a generous benefactor I'm planning to see if life imitates 'art' (sim) in the next week or so.........
GM
GM
Thanks Guys -
Rabbitz - Sure, I know it's a poor test but initially the way I listen to any driver just to check tonal quality and what it'll handle before it breaks up. I get at least a general idea ( I hope) of where I can go with it based upon how it compares with other drivers I have on hand. Plans were and remain undecided but a bipolar similiar to BD's as well as a 2 driver Calhoun horn were amongst considerations. I'll at least whip together a 4' TL to see if that helps, plenty of OSB and cardboard around.
BigWill - As above, simply have never run into a driver to date that tested so poorly with this simple test.
GM - I went mostly on testimony and not numbers to make buy decision. Add that you have to believe anything originating from Reimer and Company simply must be good. Build quality is thus far finest driver I've ever personally owned. Easy to look at as well, a pretty driver. Simply hard to believe at this point driver will come alive in most suggested enclosures. All I'm seeing now is possible Office speakers with low power amp because as soon as I'd hit it with any juice it broke up. Biggest concern now is that I was fairly well settled in on one of a few designs and now I'm afraid to put both work and expense into any of those I had in mind. I've bought over 2 dozen different drivers in the last year just to see what they'd sound like and each did well in some application. I sincerely believed this one would outshine all I'd purchased and plans had this as 1st intended keeper.
Gotta believe you Guys and all else said by others prior to purchase.
I'll play with it and see what happens.
Thanks -
Bluto
Rabbitz - Sure, I know it's a poor test but initially the way I listen to any driver just to check tonal quality and what it'll handle before it breaks up. I get at least a general idea ( I hope) of where I can go with it based upon how it compares with other drivers I have on hand. Plans were and remain undecided but a bipolar similiar to BD's as well as a 2 driver Calhoun horn were amongst considerations. I'll at least whip together a 4' TL to see if that helps, plenty of OSB and cardboard around.
BigWill - As above, simply have never run into a driver to date that tested so poorly with this simple test.
GM - I went mostly on testimony and not numbers to make buy decision. Add that you have to believe anything originating from Reimer and Company simply must be good. Build quality is thus far finest driver I've ever personally owned. Easy to look at as well, a pretty driver. Simply hard to believe at this point driver will come alive in most suggested enclosures. All I'm seeing now is possible Office speakers with low power amp because as soon as I'd hit it with any juice it broke up. Biggest concern now is that I was fairly well settled in on one of a few designs and now I'm afraid to put both work and expense into any of those I had in mind. I've bought over 2 dozen different drivers in the last year just to see what they'd sound like and each did well in some application. I sincerely believed this one would outshine all I'd purchased and plans had this as 1st intended keeper.
Gotta believe you Guys and all else said by others prior to purchase.
I'll play with it and see what happens.
Thanks -
Bluto
You're welcome!
Hmm, I don't recall having much to say about it beyond its poor efficiency and overall wide BW smoothness. For sure it's not a very dynamic driver, at least based on its published specs, so is best used in an apartment, small room or as nearfield monitors.
Anyway, all I'm hoping for performance wise is that they give a ~Jordan JX92S type of wide BW smoothness with enough extra clarity/imaging WRT the tweaked 40-1354s in my buddy's apartment to justify their much higher pricing and if we're happy with the results I'll post the design if anyone's interested.
GM
Hmm, I don't recall having much to say about it beyond its poor efficiency and overall wide BW smoothness. For sure it's not a very dynamic driver, at least based on its published specs, so is best used in an apartment, small room or as nearfield monitors.
Anyway, all I'm hoping for performance wise is that they give a ~Jordan JX92S type of wide BW smoothness with enough extra clarity/imaging WRT the tweaked 40-1354s in my buddy's apartment to justify their much higher pricing and if we're happy with the results I'll post the design if anyone's interested.
GM
For those who like small drivers, these fit the bill. I do think they are an excellent little driver. Heavy on the little part. I was a little disappointed in the beginning too but I had to smack myself and realize it's a 4.5" driver. Wake up Cal, a 4.5" driver! OK, back to reality. IMHO opinion, that size of a driver has no business sounding that good. It only took about 10 hours for the driver to loosen up and offer some warmth to the low end.
The Calhoun's even impressed planet10.
The Calhoun's even impressed planet10.
Behavior of the cone with it out of the box will be very different to in a box. it might bring some breakup modes in early because the excursion for a given input is greater than normal. no backpressure, (for want of a better term) Yep, even on an open baffle, the edges of the cone will be experienceing different forces.
Kind of like testing an amp into a 50 ohm load.
Kind of like testing an amp into a 50 ohm load.
Like Cal was saying, they do take 10-20 hours to loosen up and start to show there full potenital. I have them currently hooked up to my amp for my PC speakers. 3x3 room. And they play very loud. In 7L bass reflex cabinets. When they do start distorting and exceed xmax they are way passed comfortable listening levels anyways. Have at least 2000 hours on them now. Never missed a beat.
CSS 125
I have the WR + Dayton neo tweet crossed high (8k) 2nd order
1) In a 25' x 17' (12' ceiling) room set on stands they did performed well but bass was lost (not the most efficient as said here)
2) In a den/office (9' x 10') set high above TV stand they perform admirably and they seem to go very deep (almost below 60Hz) as If a subwoofer was not needed
3) Right now I used one of them only as center channel to complement my ProAC studio I (ScanSpeak 8542). They are crossed high (I beliveve ~80hz if memory serves me right ) using the Panasonic AV digital receiver. They reproduce very clear voices and are very dynamic as a center channel
My kids always enjoyed them and asked me why I took one away...
I have the WR + Dayton neo tweet crossed high (8k) 2nd order
1) In a 25' x 17' (12' ceiling) room set on stands they did performed well but bass was lost (not the most efficient as said here)
2) In a den/office (9' x 10') set high above TV stand they perform admirably and they seem to go very deep (almost below 60Hz) as If a subwoofer was not needed
3) Right now I used one of them only as center channel to complement my ProAC studio I (ScanSpeak 8542). They are crossed high (I beliveve ~80hz if memory serves me right ) using the Panasonic AV digital receiver. They reproduce very clear voices and are very dynamic as a center channel
My kids always enjoyed them and asked me why I took one away...
'Well..Shut my Mouth!'
Had to find an answer quick, no time to cut anything up. Grabbed 2 pieces of 6" PVC, a couple of 1" x 4" x 4' pine boards and a roll of duct tape. 2 Drivers per side. 10 minutes and I was in business.
Night and Day. Amazing. Never saw such a difference in any driver I've played with with just a quickie enclosure vs. just wiring it up. Set em up in 12 x 14 Office and my ears hurt now after a few hours of playing this n that from most of my CD's. Way too loud for this little room when power was put to them.
Do believe a decent enclosure will make all the difference in the World with these.
They are too bright but that problem likely solved as well when set-up properly and broken in.
I'm hearing some instruments I hadn't heard before and I love when that happens. Brushes on snares ... Cool.
Bluto is happy again.
Thanks Guys
Had to find an answer quick, no time to cut anything up. Grabbed 2 pieces of 6" PVC, a couple of 1" x 4" x 4' pine boards and a roll of duct tape. 2 Drivers per side. 10 minutes and I was in business.
Night and Day. Amazing. Never saw such a difference in any driver I've played with with just a quickie enclosure vs. just wiring it up. Set em up in 12 x 14 Office and my ears hurt now after a few hours of playing this n that from most of my CD's. Way too loud for this little room when power was put to them.
Do believe a decent enclosure will make all the difference in the World with these.
They are too bright but that problem likely solved as well when set-up properly and broken in.
I'm hearing some instruments I hadn't heard before and I love when that happens. Brushes on snares ... Cool.
Bluto is happy again.
Thanks Guys
I had the FR125s for a while and I wasn't overly impressed with them either. They sounded good, but nothing about them seemed very special. I compared them to my Tang band W3-871s sealed bookshelves and other than the FR125's having more bass and an ability to play louder, the TB's had a sound quality that was as good or better.
I ended up selling the 125's but still have the 871s. In my opinion the TB's have a much better price to performance value.
Which Tang Band are you comparing the FR's with?
I ended up selling the 125's but still have the 871s. In my opinion the TB's have a much better price to performance value.
Which Tang Band are you comparing the FR's with?
Type -
My TB's are the W4- 657SH.
The tonal quality IS very good and reason for purchase was to see what a 4" FR other than the little Pio's I'd been playing with were capable of. Buck for buck I don't think any driver is ever going to compete with that little Pio. Too bad they can't handle any power to speak of.
I agree with you that they don't get as loud as the CSS but although I think tonal quality thus far is pretty close my TB's clip when called on to go low so I'm assuming despite never looking at charts that they must drop fairly rapidly at around 65 which I believe they're rated at. It was irritating in the living room to continually have to go turn down volume on any given piece of music. I'd bet, just as with the CSS that multiple drivers would solve that problem as well but can't help but think it should be tied in with some type of bass driver to avoid clipping altogether.
A real good low buck FR without question. I'm planning on trying them in a Needle and using them for Dining Room speakers. Right now I have them in a small Bookcase Horn of my own design. Definitely worth their low cost and I'm considering trying the TB 4" Bamboo in the future.
Bluto
My TB's are the W4- 657SH.
The tonal quality IS very good and reason for purchase was to see what a 4" FR other than the little Pio's I'd been playing with were capable of. Buck for buck I don't think any driver is ever going to compete with that little Pio. Too bad they can't handle any power to speak of.
I agree with you that they don't get as loud as the CSS but although I think tonal quality thus far is pretty close my TB's clip when called on to go low so I'm assuming despite never looking at charts that they must drop fairly rapidly at around 65 which I believe they're rated at. It was irritating in the living room to continually have to go turn down volume on any given piece of music. I'd bet, just as with the CSS that multiple drivers would solve that problem as well but can't help but think it should be tied in with some type of bass driver to avoid clipping altogether.
A real good low buck FR without question. I'm planning on trying them in a Needle and using them for Dining Room speakers. Right now I have them in a small Bookcase Horn of my own design. Definitely worth their low cost and I'm considering trying the TB 4" Bamboo in the future.
Bluto
Cal -
Dave and I had discussed the Calhoun a bit awhile back.
My problem is space which caused my initial interest and it appears the Calhoun would give most bang for the buck with that being primary consideration.
I went back today and reread your initial posts on them. Amazing what you forget , you provide a good deal more info there than I'd initially seen despite original design being side firing.
Someone else did build a pair recently and I don't know who it was and whether their's were dual front firing or as yours.
I haven't seen a thread or I'm missing it if it exists. Do you know?
I'm real close to committing on that design ( had thought I was there until initial scare yesterday) and also reread info on other designs I had in mind today that continue to make me think Calhoun is my best bet. My only cause for trepidation is that I plan on altering design somewhat but based on all I've read my plans still should work.
Any info from anyone on that design greatly appreciated.
Bluto
Dave and I had discussed the Calhoun a bit awhile back.
My problem is space which caused my initial interest and it appears the Calhoun would give most bang for the buck with that being primary consideration.
I went back today and reread your initial posts on them. Amazing what you forget , you provide a good deal more info there than I'd initially seen despite original design being side firing.
Someone else did build a pair recently and I don't know who it was and whether their's were dual front firing or as yours.
I haven't seen a thread or I'm missing it if it exists. Do you know?
I'm real close to committing on that design ( had thought I was there until initial scare yesterday) and also reread info on other designs I had in mind today that continue to make me think Calhoun is my best bet. My only cause for trepidation is that I plan on altering design somewhat but based on all I've read my plans still should work.
Any info from anyone on that design greatly appreciated.
Bluto
Bluto said:'Well..Shut my Mouth!'
Night and Day. Amazing. Never saw such a difference in any driver I've played with with just a quickie enclosure vs. just wiring it up. Set em up in 12 x 14 Office and my ears hurt now after a few hours of playing this n that from most of my CD's. Way too loud for this little room when power was put to them.
Bluto is happy again.
Thanks Guys
Glad to hear you like them better. They are a very honest driver and the bass they make is insane for a 4" driver.
Bluto said:
I've had quite a bit of experience with the original versions of FR/WR15 in several other designs from the Planet10 design mill, (mini-onken, bipole MLTL, 4l aperiodic mini-monitors) and aside from the undeniable sensitivity issue (particularly when compared to a Fostex FE126E), these drivers never cease to amaze. As a product of very conservative engineering, mr Hoffman is always looking over your shoulder - " I said, you can pick 2 of 3, son..."
I had a chance to hear Cal's Calhouns for the first time myself yesterday evening. Funny how several hours of our host's legendary hospitality, the best of mr Buffett's tunes, and countless glasses of free red wine can help realign your attitude, with any change in the latitude.
. Anyway, professor Weldon's execution of this design is quite interesting indeed. By mounting one of the 2 WR125ST's on the side of the driver chamber, and the other on the front, along with a small waveguide loaded dome tweeter, he has accrued some interesting performance characteristics and placement versatility. As heard in this session the system doesn't struggle without BSC filters, nor suffer from hole in the middle imaging.
Bluto -
There was a guy a few years ago who strung his Lowther drivers up in a tree and wasn't impressed with the sound quality. It always makes sense to hear something in an enclosure, or at least on a baffle, before making a judgement.
As for these drivers, you might try the miniOnken. I have a pair built by Dave and Chris, and they're pretty darn good. - Pat
There was a guy a few years ago who strung his Lowther drivers up in a tree and wasn't impressed with the sound quality. It always makes sense to hear something in an enclosure, or at least on a baffle, before making a judgement.
As for these drivers, you might try the miniOnken. I have a pair built by Dave and Chris, and they're pretty darn good. - Pat
Bluto said:
Hi Bluto,
Just a recap:
Both WR's running full and a 1.5 mfd cap and 3 dB padding on the tweeter. I am believer in making use of a drivers abilities rather than to XO the heck out of it.
I have not had luck with the drivers trying them d'Appolito no matter how low I crossed them. Even as a 2.5 way it wasn't working for me. Most of the decision to side mount the driver was two-fold. I was hoping to eliminate the BSC and with them being mirror image I could eliminate the hole (drivers inward) in the middle that Chris has touched on. They also allow for narrow placement (drivers outward) without losing the stereo imaging. The third and deciding factor was that both drivers could be mounted nice and high, as in closer to ear level.
The only negative comment I heard that night was there appears to be little peak somewhere around 300 Hz. It wasn't really a bother, just noticeable.
Easy build, even though I did it in the wrong order. I thought it would be nice to build the step horns first so I didn't have to get my hands in that narrow spot when stacking the pieces. Bad move. I was not able build them square and true enough (even though I used a jig) so the final cabinets are not that purdy. Not to worry, these were for experimental purposes only so when I get around to building the real cabinets, I know not to make that same mistake.
Good luck with it.
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