Horn/Transmission line help
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 17th January 2008, 06:29 PM #1 Harderror   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Washington DC Horn/Transmission line help Ok, so I fully understand horn equations and have now designed and built 2 absolutely fantastic functioning horn systems. I am now trying to design a compromised horn/transmission line as I am tired of having monstrous speakers sitting in my living room. That said, I am having the hardest time figuring out how to alter the horn calculation (as per MJK) to place my TL resonant frequency at 50 HZ and changing the flare and length of the horn to take up the slack from the Fh down to where the TL action begins. I read MJK over and over and feel like I am beating my head on the wall. I am forever grateful for what he has done but a good deal of what he writes speaks only to mathematicians or phsics geeks. I understand a good deal of what he works with but get mired down by the extreme equations he discusses (such as those he uses Maple to calculate). So, if anyone can help I would greatly appreciate it! SCOTT?! Thanks in advance! We need MJK for dummies (ok, not dummies but non physicists/mathematicians. For someone wanting to explain. I am trying a compromised 50Hz horn (1/16, .5 SD, for the FE 126). Tom
 18th January 2008, 12:29 AM #2 ronc   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Mar 2003 For someone wanting to explain. I am trying a compromised 50Hz horn (1/16, .5 SD, for the FE 126). I think its called the Frugal horn or the A126. I am forever grateful for what he has done but a good deal of what he writes speaks only to mathematicians or phsics geeks. And? but get mired down by the extreme equations he discusses (such as those he uses Maple to calculate). I cant think of many ways you can explain the actions besides math/physics. I try to present examples of things ppl can relate to, but the actual definations can only be given in math/physics. Even my methods differ somewhat from Martin as i depend a great deal on vector analysis. ron http://fullrangedriver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=91 This is about as simple as it gets.
hm
diyAudio Member

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: near Hamburg Germany
Hello,

http://www.fostexspeaker.de/newprods/fe126e.pdf

Xmax 0,35 mm that is nothing, let you show measurements or simulation from the "developer"
if there isnīt any be careful.

Better take a tested enclosure.
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planet10
frugal-phile(tm)
diyAudio Moderator

Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Quote:
 Originally posted by hm Better take a tested enclosure.
I can assure you that both the speakers Ron mentioned have been thoroughly tested. And further Ron has probably the most accurate simulation software for designing horns that exists.

dave
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p10-hifi forum here at diyA

 18th January 2008, 12:41 PM #5 hm   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: near Hamburg Germany show us the simulations and measurements!! __________________ http://www.hm-moreart.de
ghpicard
diyAudio Member

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Buenos Aires
Quote:
 Originally posted by hm show us the simulations and measurements!!
FWIW I'll give you my personal view on this respect.

1 - Simulations are just simulations. Well done, within the right context, they help a lot in a design or understanding of phenomena. If not done within the right context they mean nothing or even worse, they are misleading.

2 - Measurements are exactly the same thing, and if not done within a standard or at least very well defined frame of reference, with a specific intention (this is, to demonstrate or show a certain aspect of a system or device), they also could mean nothing.

Besides this is the fact that all things done or discussed in this forum are to be used in real rooms, outside of an anechoic chamber, and with heavily changing contexts. This is to say that I would personally take[B]any[B] measurement and/or simulation on loudspeakers as merely indicative, except under very specific conditions.

Now, this said, both designs we are discussing here (A126, FH) were built several times and reported as working and working very good, in several different environments and by different persons.
Regarding to Ron and MJK, I personally know neither of them, but the show of their work and the reading on what they express on their many posts speaks for them and to me (personal opinion) they are voices to be listened to in this context.

Now, if you think that measurements and simulations mean everything and other people impressions on the build summed to the designers background mean nothing, please put that clearly this way, and remark it as a personal opinion.

Gastón

 18th January 2008, 04:06 PM #7 hm   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: near Hamburg Germany Hello do know this threats, about what is real and what not, main threat: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=3 changed and stoped questions here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=1 do you know what dynamic compression is, and what happened with sound and distrotion, do you know how much Xmax is needed in a horn? I think not. if it works so good, and so many, why is there no one outside to take a measurement. Most horns are not built and tested, and if I see a moderator is there involved, than I think there is a conflict of interests. Sorry, you know my side and experience, single driver with such a low Xmax are going only 0,3 W. __________________ http://www.hm-moreart.de
 18th January 2008, 06:28 PM #9 Scottmoose   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Tom, you've set yourself a difficult challenge, trying to do a 50Hz hybrid horn for the 126, which frankly isn't an especially easy driver to work with. Small units frequently aren't. The Frugel-horn & Ron's A126, as noted, can do it, no problem, and by reputation, Ed's Horns too. So if acoustic music is your staple diet, then you probably wouldn't need any more. If you're after setting yourself a challenge to design something from scratch, things get a bit more complicated. Remember, MathCAD is only a modelling tool. It can't design a speaker for you, and you have to be aware of what it does and does not do in modelling terms too. For example, it can't show you the effects of bends, or a specific folding scheme on HF in the horn (nothing available can at present to the best of my knowledge, aside from Ron's own private software). Nor does it fully show the effects of end-correction etc. None of this is to denigrate Martin's work -quite the opposite. It's probably the best suite of all-round software available (I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a new set of front-horn & isobaric sheets, and, if possible, a tapped-horn sheet might be nice too. Akabak & Hornresp are great as far as they go, & have some features Martin's worksheets lack, but I still favour MathCAD. A few general pointers, because if we went into it in detail, we'd be here 'til next Christmas. Firstly, the 126 really needs a ~optimal hyperbolic with a flare constant just below 0.5 to work well in a pure horn. Even though you're after a hybrid QW / horn, this is still a good indication: a long path with relatively slow initial expansion is a good starting point, which is what all the aforementioned designs have. End-correction is worth having in a compromised horn -it will reduce potential ripple, though the software won't show this fully. Don't go for too small a throat or you'll end up with a ludicrously long path. That was a mistake I used to make. Don't use the Fostex specs BTW -they're way off. Troel Gravesen has some better ones on his site. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/FE126E.htm Don't make the air-cavity too large -the A126 & Frugel-horn are 2.2 litres which gives a nice blend of loading on the driver & a suitable upper corner-frequency for the cabinet. Smaller & you risk a very 'shut in' sound with a nasal midrange quality. Finally, I'd go for gain. You can always loose what you don't need. __________________ "'That'll do", comes the cry of the perfectionist down the ages.' James May -The Reassembler www.wodendesign.com Community sites www.frugal-horn.com http://frugal-phile.com/
 18th January 2008, 07:02 PM #10 hm   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: near Hamburg Germany Hello Scottmoose, sorry I canīt understand all, and didnīt read all, and I wonīt disturb a hobby. But your list and the big sells make me wonder that there is no measurement at all, more and more. sorry. __________________ http://www.hm-moreart.de

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