OzMikeH said:No wuckers.
It's the least I could do in thanks for such a useful thread. I've been terrified of using veneer until now.
Would be wise to use some wire mesh for reinforcement. Perhaps cement might be more durable than plaster.
Tell me more about this. Please. I am serious about this, but am completely new to the process.
If I use a sand method, I will need to do it in two parts: an upper and lower, and then adhere them together.
Please explain completely and tell me what type of plaster I will need and the steps. I did some checking on plaster and there are different types.
PS: is that the same thing as "No wucking forries"?
Yep, an abbreviation of an already cryptic figure of speech.
I've just made a model with my kid using plaster of paris. That is what gave me the idea.
You only need the hole in the ground, make the top flat. you can round the edge of the top over with a scraper while the plaster is still "green"
You carve the hole out of damp sand, I suggest making something like a giant spade drill bit out of thin plywood. If you get the right sort of sand with the right moisture content it will hold the shape well. You'll need a small trowel to scoop the "drilled" sand away. maybe a vacuum cleaner with a small hose.
If you do this in a flower pot of appropriate size the edges of the pot will be the sides and self-centre the "drill"
mix up too much plaster of paris, fill the flower pot moulds to overflowing and scrape the top off like they do with beer in belgium.
Let cure, wont take very long. then shape the top edge.
I've just made a model with my kid using plaster of paris. That is what gave me the idea.
You only need the hole in the ground, make the top flat. you can round the edge of the top over with a scraper while the plaster is still "green"
You carve the hole out of damp sand, I suggest making something like a giant spade drill bit out of thin plywood. If you get the right sort of sand with the right moisture content it will hold the shape well. You'll need a small trowel to scoop the "drilled" sand away. maybe a vacuum cleaner with a small hose.
If you do this in a flower pot of appropriate size the edges of the pot will be the sides and self-centre the "drill"
mix up too much plaster of paris, fill the flower pot moulds to overflowing and scrape the top off like they do with beer in belgium.
Let cure, wont take very long. then shape the top edge.
Here is something else we must keep in mind. Let's go back to the picture for a moment. And remember there will be no top compression horn to be erected above the horn, as in the picture
Remember, I will need to drill six holes into the dispersion horn so as to affix six supporting rods above the driver and tweater combination. Will I be able to do any precision drilling, and then tighten down the screws/bolts without cracking or breaking anything?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Remember, I will need to drill six holes into the dispersion horn so as to affix six supporting rods above the driver and tweater combination. Will I be able to do any precision drilling, and then tighten down the screws/bolts without cracking or breaking anything?
1/3rd of a cubic foot of plaster will be rather heavy.
I'd let them rest on three legs made of flat material. No need to drill or machine it, the legs will form a cradle.
Maybe some 3mm brushed aluminium plate with various sized holes for that Lost In Space, flying saucer look.
If it was me I'd file the holes into hexagons.
I'd let them rest on three legs made of flat material. No need to drill or machine it, the legs will form a cradle.
Maybe some 3mm brushed aluminium plate with various sized holes for that Lost In Space, flying saucer look.
If it was me I'd file the holes into hexagons.
John L said:
Random thoughts:
Cast the rods right into the diffusor.
Cast some coupling nuts into the diffusor, then screw the rods into those.
Cast in metal or plastic tubes, and secure the rods into them afterwords with epoxy. Make the tubes big enough to allow you to align the rods on installation, in case the tubes are a bit off vertical.
Plaster alone would be heavy and not too strong, especially if the rods must attach to a thin rim. You might find that some variation on hypertufa (a lightweight concrete made of Portland cement, peat and perlite, generally used for casting garden pots and such - Google it for more info than you could ever want) would be lighter and stronger. I don't know how easy it would be to get a smooth enough surface on it, it might need a skim coat of plaster to serve as a base for finishing.
Casting resin would be another option, but you'd need a good mold for that.
See if a local potter can spin your diffusors on a pottery wheel. A fired glazed finish could make these into works of art. Probably cost a bit, but might be worth it. Is there a college with an art department near by?
Bill
I'm not quite understanding what you mean by making hexagon holes. Let me get some pictures so we can take a closer look at things.
Here is a cross section of the Venus.
In my project, the top of the horn really doesn't need to be rounded as with this Duevel, since the high compression horn on top will not be mounted there. I could even have the top completely flat. However, I don't think it would look all that pleasing since there are already too many straight lines and it needs some breaking up of this to give it a more pleasing set of lines. So, I think a slight rise/rounded top would look best, but certainly nothing like is shown here on the commercial products.
But if you look at the supporting rods in the cut-away, they are drilled into the material (wood/plaster/clay/etc) and affixed/glued/screwed to it so it will be a permanent fixture. Then is is secured to the top of the cabinet, around the cabinet's corners, next to the driver. I would think that six round rods, perhaps aluminium, would be best to work for this arrangement. That way I could use a screw or bolt to secure it to the cabinet too. And if I could not find a hollow aluminium rod, I can always use a tap and create my own threadings there for a long screw.
But a flat material on top would totally defeat the asthetics AND radiating ability of the horn effect. In fact a flat surface would not have a horn effect at all. It really needs to have a curved horn effect, or it will not work properly.
I am worried that the plaster may weigh a good bit. That is why it would have to be very secure.
Another thing: is there anything that can be used in the plaster mix that would make the mold lighter. Something such as Vermiculite, which is used in granulated form in potting soils? The vermiculite is lightweight, porous, light in color, and absorbs water. If it was mixed within the plaster cement, it would act as an aggregate to lessen the weight.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is a cross section of the Venus.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
In my project, the top of the horn really doesn't need to be rounded as with this Duevel, since the high compression horn on top will not be mounted there. I could even have the top completely flat. However, I don't think it would look all that pleasing since there are already too many straight lines and it needs some breaking up of this to give it a more pleasing set of lines. So, I think a slight rise/rounded top would look best, but certainly nothing like is shown here on the commercial products.
But if you look at the supporting rods in the cut-away, they are drilled into the material (wood/plaster/clay/etc) and affixed/glued/screwed to it so it will be a permanent fixture. Then is is secured to the top of the cabinet, around the cabinet's corners, next to the driver. I would think that six round rods, perhaps aluminium, would be best to work for this arrangement. That way I could use a screw or bolt to secure it to the cabinet too. And if I could not find a hollow aluminium rod, I can always use a tap and create my own threadings there for a long screw.
But a flat material on top would totally defeat the asthetics AND radiating ability of the horn effect. In fact a flat surface would not have a horn effect at all. It really needs to have a curved horn effect, or it will not work properly.
I am worried that the plaster may weigh a good bit. That is why it would have to be very secure.
Another thing: is there anything that can be used in the plaster mix that would make the mold lighter. Something such as Vermiculite, which is used in granulated form in potting soils? The vermiculite is lightweight, porous, light in color, and absorbs water. If it was mixed within the plaster cement, it would act as an aggregate to lessen the weight.
lousymusician said:
I hate to sound like "Everyman", but I have some decent experience on the potter's wheel. When I was in the service I used to go with a friend to the Fort Jackson main craft shop. There I met a Tom Turner. I believe his first name was Tom. He had an MFA in ceramics and ran the ceramics section as a way to work out his time in service. He had been drafted right out of college into the army.
Through him I learned how to properly wedge the clay, center it on the wheel and throw a pretty good cylinder. I even made a large umbrella stand out of three cylinders. If you have never thrown clay and pulled up a cylinder, you have no idea how hard it is. The key is in centering the clay on the moving wheel. If it is off center, the cylinder will not go up in a stable wall.
I have made a lot of vases and pots, many which have been gifted and broken, and my Mother has a few. I even have some left. Here is one, a hanging basket that I still have around the house.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Anyway, because of this I fell in love with ceramics, and seriously thought about entering graduate school and major specialize in ceramics. But my BA was in history and I would have had to practically start all over. I gave up, and became an anthropologist instead.
Anyway, doing this in ceramics was my first thought, but I realized the logistical problems doing this. I have not been on a wheel in over thirty years, so I would be very rusty. And furthermore, the community craft shop manager told me that I would have to take a cource first to prove that I could be trusted on the equipment. It's part of the standardized rules.
I may still fall back on this avenue, because it really would produce a nice piece of work.
Now there are problems doing it with clay. first off, you would have to order special clay, because the normal clay used in pottery shops and crafts centers are usually a combination of Georgia Kaolin, at least some form of fire or ball clay, perhaps some porcelain, and last but not least "Grog". Grog is a rough material that is added to the premix, and it adds roughness and body to the clay. It is not all that good for making shapes that are smooth and silky. It's also rough on the fingers, and will eat up your fingers until you have developed enough callouses.
Anyway, I thought about it and considered it as potentially a last resort, because the next class at the craft center was on some Kooky thing that did not interest me at all. But I will think about it if I cannot come up with something more desirable.
But yes, I have seriously considered a ceramic dispersion horn.
Nice work.
Just my 2 cents.
I'd be careful in selecting the material for the diffuser as it would affect the sonic character of the speaker. That Dado set is indeed inexpensive, are the bottoms of the dado cuts flat?
You seem to be very much into your wood. A lathe is a very useful tool for woodworking. I'm surprise that with your interest in pottery and woodworking that you haven't gotten into turning bowls. Most regular wood lathes can turn 14 to 16 inches over the bed. My lathe swivels to accommodate even larger diameters.
Just my 2 cents.
I'd be careful in selecting the material for the diffuser as it would affect the sonic character of the speaker. That Dado set is indeed inexpensive, are the bottoms of the dado cuts flat?
You seem to be very much into your wood. A lathe is a very useful tool for woodworking. I'm surprise that with your interest in pottery and woodworking that you haven't gotten into turning bowls. Most regular wood lathes can turn 14 to 16 inches over the bed. My lathe swivels to accommodate even larger diameters.
Secips said:
I totally agree. I would suspect wood would be the best because it tends to be inert, and will not vibrate like stiff objects will. In other words, the entire energy of the sound wave will be radiated, and not absorbed by the wall and vibrate.
Ceramics may have that problem, unless the walls are made thick enough. Also, the inside would have to be filled with expandable insulation, which you can purchase at just about any hardward section. That way, the insulation would absorb any vibrations of the ceramic material. I think that would solve that problem.
If you think THAT is in expensive, you should see what it is going to cost from their Dollar Days Sale, coming January12th to January 22st of this month. I just received their sales flyer in the mail yesterday, and I turned through the pages of neat buys. Suddenly, in front of my eyes, there was the same dado set , on page 5. Would you like to know how much it is selling for? Try $19.00 even! Amazing! It is so amazing that I am going to pick up another set, just in case something happens, OR as a present for someone else. $19.00 is just like giving these things away. But you probably already know that.
Does it cut flat? If I take my time and don't push it through as I would with ripping, it is not a perfect cut, but then again NO dado sets cut evenly by doing that. The moving parts are just the same as with the "Be-Pop Delux" dado sets. While I realize that Harbor Freight tools are not at the top of the heap, those tool that are not used constantly by the woodworker are Super Buys. Were I to use any expensdive dado set, on a daily basis, first I would make certain I used it in my business, so as to get a tax write-off, and secondly I would get the 'best for the least' money. And even with this, it is probably Still the best 'Cost to Use' value. After all, Dado cuts are not exposed on the outside of the woodwork, are they?
The reason for this is self-explanatory. There are simply only so many things that one person can have the time of day to do. I just don't have the time for all the things I would love accomplish. My priorities go something like this.
My self-employed business
reading and learning things. I'm a prodigious reader.
enjoying my considerable music collection
Following politics
running the political forum I own.
BTY, did I mention politics?
I am self-employed, in which I make beautiful things for the interior design business. Currently, I am in the process of making a detailed swag and jabot set for a rich client, to go in her large multi-walled/windowed sun/livingroom. this requires a certain amount of woodworking ability. But most of all it requires my manual dexterity, in which I use my compressor, staple guns, and my hand and eye coordination. In other words, I am in the top 1-2% of those who have mechanical minds. When I look at Everything, I am mentally taking them apart and trying to figure out how they go back together.
But I just don't have the time to pursue a lathe, although I would love to. Also, my basement is exclusively set up for my decoration making shop, which includes my table saw/vacuum setup, and drill press, shop cabinets, and four industrial sewing machines/blind stitcher/serger. I also have a 12 foot long Gammill quilting machine for making custom bed spreads. I also have a 144" x 60" work table. Oh, I forgot, my desk unit. This takes up considerable space, and I just don't have room for a nice lathe. If I got it, I would have to make room by removing something else.
But next on my list of new things to do would be to make my own tube amplifier, make another pair of hexagon speakers,.............................
I have recently purchased some wonderful wooden pens turned on a lathe, and would love to take up that too, but where do I find the time?
Anyway, that is my problem. Oh, and I have two other underlying problems that are hard to overcome. First, when I do something, I try to to the best job possible, and can be a bit too fussy, so it takes me longer than normal to complete. And second, I have this thing about finishing things. I'm a great thinker/starter, but not the best finisher. I have to keep my nose to the grindstone, or I will think up some other new project that I just absolutely have to do, put down the current project, and be on to the next one. it's something I have to keep trying to overcome, if you understand what I mean.
Incidentially, would you be interested in contributing to my project by helping me out on the lathe end of things? I will give you the credit AND I will even pay you for your effort? How does that suit you?
Ed LaFontaine said:
Hi Ed. The funny thing is that you and I don't cross paths here, and I was wondering just who you were, and what your avatar looked like. Now I can place you with it(as Alex Karis in Blazing saddles
) , and I won't have any problem in the future. I'll get in touch with you, most likely in a week. It may be a little slow going for me on the veneering job, getting it right the first time. I am taking my time and doing only one strip, on each cabinet, at a time, and then trimming, and cleaning that application before moving on to the next application. After I do this job once, I should be able to cruise through the next hexagon project. And I fully intend to do just that. In fact I already have a smaller one, with just the right veneer, lined up. But I may decide to make a seven-sided enclosure instead
I still have a little ways to go before I need the upper horn.
Yesterday the weather was a little better than the day before. The temperature here in Raleigh reached a balmy 38 degrees F. So with it being so warm, and thanking my lucky stars for all this Anthropogenic Global Warming, I decided to take two of the pieces of veneer out on the back deck and seal them with three coats of Super Blond shellac.
Here I have coated one side of the veneer with the first application of shellac. It's nice and wet, and went on without a hitch. After the first doat, the second one used less shellac, and the last coat was smooth as silk. I actually wound up using almost half of that jar of shellac on these two pieces, which is quite a bit IMO.
And here I have it turned over, for the application to the back of the sheet. Note how the shellac/denatured alcohol mixture has already soaked up and actually gone all the way through to the back.
And here are the first two pieces, after I have applied three coats to front and back of both and allowed them to dry. After the wood dries, it does tend to turn a bit, so it is always best to turn the veneer over, like in the picture, so as to cut down on any more curling.
Once I let it pretty much dry outside, I brought the two in and let them finish curing, until last night. At that time I applied Heat bond glue to the sides you saw facing upward on the previous photo. That way, if there is any further curling, it will be counter to the already curled veneer. Here is what it looks like with the glue rolled liberally on to the veneer.
And here are the two carcasses with one wall of each also liberally glued. By the time for bed, the glue had still not dried completely, so I let them dry further overnight.
Then next morning, today, I checked the veneer, and found them completely dry. With them placed on top of the glued walls, they looked like this.
Note that I only allowed for 1/8" inch overlap on the sides. That way I would have little to trim. The overlap at top and bottom were not all that critical, because I could trim them down with my French Veneer Saw and give them only about 1/8 " inch overlap as well. Cutting the top and bottom was far easier, because that was at a 90 degree angle.
Here you can see how much overlap I allowed for top and bottom. It was not critical. To get the overlap cut down so as to only have about 1/8" remaining, I turned the cabinet on it's side, and eyeballed the overlap, and then made a pencil mark just beyond the corner. Then I did this to the other side. I allowed the pencil marks to act as a reference for my cutting of the veneer. Then I set up my straight edge, and carefully used the veneer saw to cut off the excess overlap.
I have read where a lot of people recommend using an exacto knife to make these cuts, but I don't like that too much. It is far better to use the veneer saw, because veneer saws will always give you a better, and truer, cut.
Here both cabinets have had their veneer ironed on, and the excess overhang removed. Now it is time to haul them up to the back deck and trim off the excess and then sand down the veneer even with the corners.
One word of caution. When you heat press the veneer, be careful and not overheat the adhesive, or press too hard with the iron on the corners. The picture will show you what I mean.
Somehow, I was having trouble getting the veneer to stick at this corner, and the glue was coming off the veneer, probably due to the shellac. I tried to force the corner back down, and in doing so, bent the veneer and cracked it. Fortunately, the cracked piece was part of the overhang, and did not go into the body of the veneered wall, so it did not hurt anything. But it is always best to go slowly and not use too much heat or force here.
I'll continue on with the outside work on the next post.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here I have coated one side of the veneer with the first application of shellac. It's nice and wet, and went on without a hitch. After the first doat, the second one used less shellac, and the last coat was smooth as silk. I actually wound up using almost half of that jar of shellac on these two pieces, which is quite a bit IMO.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And here I have it turned over, for the application to the back of the sheet. Note how the shellac/denatured alcohol mixture has already soaked up and actually gone all the way through to the back.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And here are the first two pieces, after I have applied three coats to front and back of both and allowed them to dry. After the wood dries, it does tend to turn a bit, so it is always best to turn the veneer over, like in the picture, so as to cut down on any more curling.
Once I let it pretty much dry outside, I brought the two in and let them finish curing, until last night. At that time I applied Heat bond glue to the sides you saw facing upward on the previous photo. That way, if there is any further curling, it will be counter to the already curled veneer. Here is what it looks like with the glue rolled liberally on to the veneer.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And here are the two carcasses with one wall of each also liberally glued. By the time for bed, the glue had still not dried completely, so I let them dry further overnight.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Then next morning, today, I checked the veneer, and found them completely dry. With them placed on top of the glued walls, they looked like this.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Note that I only allowed for 1/8" inch overlap on the sides. That way I would have little to trim. The overlap at top and bottom were not all that critical, because I could trim them down with my French Veneer Saw and give them only about 1/8 " inch overlap as well. Cutting the top and bottom was far easier, because that was at a 90 degree angle.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here you can see how much overlap I allowed for top and bottom. It was not critical. To get the overlap cut down so as to only have about 1/8" remaining, I turned the cabinet on it's side, and eyeballed the overlap, and then made a pencil mark just beyond the corner. Then I did this to the other side. I allowed the pencil marks to act as a reference for my cutting of the veneer. Then I set up my straight edge, and carefully used the veneer saw to cut off the excess overlap.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have read where a lot of people recommend using an exacto knife to make these cuts, but I don't like that too much. It is far better to use the veneer saw, because veneer saws will always give you a better, and truer, cut.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here both cabinets have had their veneer ironed on, and the excess overhang removed. Now it is time to haul them up to the back deck and trim off the excess and then sand down the veneer even with the corners.
One word of caution. When you heat press the veneer, be careful and not overheat the adhesive, or press too hard with the iron on the corners. The picture will show you what I mean.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Somehow, I was having trouble getting the veneer to stick at this corner, and the glue was coming off the veneer, probably due to the shellac. I tried to force the corner back down, and in doing so, bent the veneer and cracked it. Fortunately, the cracked piece was part of the overhang, and did not go into the body of the veneered wall, so it did not hurt anything. But it is always best to go slowly and not use too much heat or force here.
I'll continue on with the outside work on the next post.
John L said:
Hi John,
You probably had enough of me before and my opinions on shellac, but here's another one: I don't mean to be a party pooper but why would you put shellac on the veneer before gluing it on? Aren't you worried that the entire veneer job will fail? Just my opinion, but I wouldn't have taken the chance.
I have seen this ironed on, glue both surfaces veneering done before, and the results are not smooth enough for me. I much prefer solvent based contact cement for this, but again, that my opinion.
Good luck.
MJL21193 said:
Not at all. In fact, I encourage comments. This is a first for me in some ways. It's my first hexagon enclosure, which more than doubles the complexity of the cabinet construction and finish. But also, I am using the iron on veneer approach for the first time. I have used contact cement in the past, but over time, contact cement on raw veneer tends to work itself loose in some places. On paper backed veneer it is a joy to work with.
Usually I use Titebond carpenters glue and apply pressure with clamps and leave the project until it dries. I have even used hide glue with success. I really like hide glue, but if you don't cut a straight line when bookmatching, or quartermatching, it is more than a bear to straighten out.
Anyway, this is a first time with me, so I am experimenting with things. And I am beginning to agree with you about the sealing of the veneer with shellac first. What I had in mind was to keep any of the glue from bleeding over to the neighbor veneer, and getting into the pores of the walnut. so I sealed the veneer. And since sealing one side, and not the other would cause the veneer to curl, I did both sides, as I explained above.
but I find that I am using huge amounts of shellac, and it doesn't matter about the glue bleeding over to the next door neighbor.
Tomorrow I will do my next wall and start out by glueing one side and spraying the other side with a mist of water to keep it from curling. When it all dries, I will give the ironing on process a go that way. I suspect it will be simplier for me.
What turned me off on using the shellac first is that straightening out the veneer this morning as I ironed on the veneer, I noticed a number of cracks in the walnut on one of the pieces. The shellac must have caused the walnut to 'set in' and when I forced it straigtht it cracked in some places. The other piece of walnut did not show these, but I am worried that this will happen again. I will most probably use this first application as the back of the cabinet. I don't think the cracks will show up though, as I can always take dust from sanding and fill in the cracks with it and then apply sealer before going on to finish the whole thing. That should mask the cracks pretty effectively.
When I worked in commercial construction management, my company sold and installed casework, nurses stations, and all sorts of demountable walls/desks/cabinets/etc. We worked with plastic laminate and contact cement quite extensively, so I had a lot of experience with it. I was also quite good with Seamfil too.
On a PL surface it works like a charm. But I just don't trust it all that much with veneer. I discovered that even when applying PL to a substrate, using a block of wood and a mallet will still not completely adhere the surfaces as they can in a dedicated cabinet making shop. In a cabinet shop the PL is not only adhered but pressed evenly in a large press assembly.
It would make my life much easier though using CC, but I want it to be permanent.
Anyway, I am going to iron on the veneer tomorrow without doing anything to the veneer first. I wll only tape a strip on to the edge of the already existing veneer that is in place. Then I can peel away the tape after the glue dries and I am about to trim and sand the edge.
Feel free to offer suggestions. The more the merrier.
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