Yup, they have that BiB look to them. I'm leaning more to the iBiBk, with side K-vents, or to the Brynn that Chris is working on right now. Requirements: Unbelievably good sound, and unbelievably easy to make, since, tool-wise, I have a tendency to screw up anything more complicated than sanding block. 
- Pat
- PatScottmoose said:I take it you like them then Clark?
yes indeed i do. I really think that the headphone analogy holds up.
the imaging is binaural. things flying out from the walls in certain music.
I was really into headphones before I met Terry and got into making single driver speakers - doing the headphone thing - and more.... I still feel that as the most effective irresponsible use of money would be to buy a sennheiser orpheus and then just call it quits.
no need to live, owning one of those things.
these drivers really have an immense clarity to them. I always feel that the fostex drivers are far more capable than anyone gives them credit. It is a fairly organic product. tight tolerances are inherent to them. they just need proper setup (sometimes, to very exacting measurements) and proper coaxing to sound their best.
They really do give an interesting presentation to music. very dynamic.
dave has certainly proven that they can be brought to a different level entirely, however.
with the swan, I hope to bring out some interesting ultra low frequency (for a single driver) traits I feel the driver posesses. the driver mount will need to be rather stiff, but I will see what I can do about keeping plenty of life in the presentation. I am certainly putting my thinking cap of minimalism on for these.
Later
Clark
bibs
yup, that was a pretty rudimentary BIB there. I built it in a room measuring 8 by 10 (with slanting ceilings!! in my housemate's upstairs apartment. I had enough clamps to do it right, but dangit, it was a cramped operation. I was using a router on a jig as my saw. I was lucky enough to be abe to do the front piece without plywood edge showing on the front.
My shop has certainly progressed since then such that now I can do all the joinery I want. Though I still tend to stick with very simple joinery because of my environmental sustainability commitment. less tool power (more hand and brain power) exerted per speaker, etc. Simpler tools needed per operation with lower power consumptions, etc. it is easier to train my part time help, easier and safer to teach speakerbuilding classes to local high school students, etc.
for the classes I will have everyone use hand tools only. meaning a japanese style pull saw for large and small cuts, hammer and nails (removable) for gluing, hand sanding, hand rubbed oil finish. I am still debating whether or not to let people use an electric drill. I would need to find a sufficient alternative though.
I use power tools not because I enjoy them. there is nothing like the feeling of being done cutting, power sanding. it is like "yes! I still have all my limbs!!"
clark
yup, that was a pretty rudimentary BIB there. I built it in a room measuring 8 by 10 (with slanting ceilings!! in my housemate's upstairs apartment. I had enough clamps to do it right, but dangit, it was a cramped operation. I was using a router on a jig as my saw. I was lucky enough to be abe to do the front piece without plywood edge showing on the front.
My shop has certainly progressed since then such that now I can do all the joinery I want. Though I still tend to stick with very simple joinery because of my environmental sustainability commitment. less tool power (more hand and brain power) exerted per speaker, etc. Simpler tools needed per operation with lower power consumptions, etc. it is easier to train my part time help, easier and safer to teach speakerbuilding classes to local high school students, etc.
for the classes I will have everyone use hand tools only. meaning a japanese style pull saw for large and small cuts, hammer and nails (removable) for gluing, hand sanding, hand rubbed oil finish. I am still debating whether or not to let people use an electric drill. I would need to find a sufficient alternative though.
I use power tools not because I enjoy them. there is nothing like the feeling of being done cutting, power sanding. it is like "yes! I still have all my limbs!!"
clark
Here I was thinking that a 5" driver in no way could perform to this level. Thanks Blumeco for the cool writeup. Since your first listen to these speakers has your opinion on them changed? have you pulled them into the house (yes saw the outside listening room, good idea have to try it once the snow starts to melt...) and put the drivers through the paces? What other types of music have your tried and your opinion on the capability to handle the different types music (classical, jazz to rock, etc.) would be really cool.
BTW cool speaker designs!
BTW cool speaker designs!
blumenco [Find more posts by blumenco]
diyAudio Member
Online
Registered: Apr 2005
Location: walla walla
United States
Post #38
we listened to them for about 2 hours till I had to go back home and sand.
I have not heard them since, but I will go hang with mark tomorrow for a little while. I will bring some of my rock, jazz, classical standbys. been sanding all week, so I deserve it, I guess.
on friday, we listened to orbital 1, olive, stereolab (which is usually a system killer, especially the early stuff...) we also listened to the grateful dead some. live europe 72. then we had to jet.
from my memories (fairly vivid), my opinion still has not changed. I have hooked back up some of my old standbys since (a breif listen to the 208es-r, which, unfortunately, the 126eN is not quite on the level of, though it probably puts out more usable bass...) the 108ESII and the 126eN are somewhat comparable, as I suspected. the 126eN sounding sweeter in a definitely good way, the 108esII having a fraction or two more ultimate detail.
would I want the 108ESII to sound sweeter? in the best of all possible worlds, yes. however I am simply unwilling to tweak with what I consider to be a classic. call me conservative.
Detail to me, in some ways I feel like terry (cain). terry was not all about ultimate, grinding, whispering detail necessarily. he was very concerned with preserving the initial energy of the performance throughout the signal chain. I feel similarly. ultimate, and I mean ULTIMATE detail should never be the only goal.
as I mentioned, it is a simple function of cone weight to flux density at VC. the 108ESII has one of the most extreme ratios I know of from any permanent magnet direct radiator. considering that I am comparing (on EQUAL footing a 500 dollar pair of drivers (that is worth EVERY cent) to a 225 pair of drivers (that is probably worth twice every cent...you get the idea...
the 126eN is certainly not lacking for detail either. it is there in spades when you need it. does not distract you from the enjoyment of the music. so in certain ways, it is a more well balanced driver than the 108esII even.
it is easier to power, gets louder (xmax plays a role here), which is good for a product of more general (not maniac) consumption.
For a while now, it has been commonly held wisdom to say that the 126e outperforms the 108EZ. both bone stock. Ed Schilling now RETROFITS his "The Horn" with the 126e upon customer request (to my knowledge).
This I agree with to an extent. but I still feel that the 108EZ has alot to offer. it is a refined presentation. very much HiFi and oozing class. I am all about the classy. the 126e has more balls, sure. but it sacrifices having that critical mass of sweetness that is needed for me to just loose myself in the music. the 108EZ, loss of awareness happens all the time.
the 108EZ will not impress frat boys (usually). the 126e certainly will. if you are like me, and you listen to a huge variety of music (mostly classical, trip hop, electronica, classic rock, blues, gritty underground recordings from all genres from my music making friends, etc.) You simply start to want things to chill out a little. I simply seek refinement of tone and dynamic presentation.
I feel that this 126eN driver simply takes what all is possible from the small genre full rangers, accomplishes it (all, or at least almost all), and then it costs a reasonable amount. not a frivilous expenditure, by any means, but worth the money no doubt.
It is funny because it sounds somewhat similar to the stock 126e, but trust me, if it sounded too much like the stock one I would not be writing a whole lot.
I guess I get very excited by small genre full rangers being taken so far. it is what I am most interested in in my own work. I have sold like 7 pairs of the "ugly duckling" horn so far (evolved from an old nagaoka design, FE83E). they have good dispersion, decent mid and upper bass, make a go for it on the low bass, and just sound pleasant. for most people, used to listening to their music on ipod docking stations, the bass is fine.
If you set them up equilateral triangle with sides of 4-6 feet with your head in a vice, stick an old mcintosh amp on em, they are probably the best imaging and close quarters dynamics speakers I know of... save for a few weird designs out there. but yeah. mega disappearing act.
the reason I put the 126eN and 108ESII in the same category, is that they both do this to an extreme extent, but still manage to have a lively, musical presentation. a pleasant point to prove. Far more dynamic in an absolute sense than their size suggests, which is probably the trait that distinguishes them the most from other small full rangers by the largest margin. very low QTS for horn loading, which is all that should be done with them, IMO.
I love the 103 and 107 too because they are the first drivers that really start to do all these traits in the fostex line.
BTW, I don't listen outside THAT much. only when I am in the mood to throw away the whole issue of room acoustics.
also, look into the old diatone/mitsubishi p610. it is another paradigm altering 5 incher. some hold that it is among the very short list of the best full rangers ever. super flat. well balanced. of course, like the coral betas, etc. in diminishing supply.
again, I have probably talked too much.
later, y'all
Clark
quote:
Originally posted by 77seriesIII
Here I was thinking that a 5" driver in no way could perform to this level. Thanks Blumeco for the cool writeup. Since your first listen to these speakers has your opinion on them changed? have you pulled them into the house (yes saw the outside listening room, good idea have to try it once the snow starts to melt...) and put the drivers through the paces? What other types of music have your tried and your opinion on the capability to handle the different types music (classical, jazz to rock, etc.) would be really cool.
BTW cool speaker designs!
__________________
diyAudio Member
Online
Registered: Apr 2005
Location: walla walla
United States
Post #38
we listened to them for about 2 hours till I had to go back home and sand.
I have not heard them since, but I will go hang with mark tomorrow for a little while. I will bring some of my rock, jazz, classical standbys. been sanding all week, so I deserve it, I guess.
on friday, we listened to orbital 1, olive, stereolab (which is usually a system killer, especially the early stuff...) we also listened to the grateful dead some. live europe 72. then we had to jet.
from my memories (fairly vivid), my opinion still has not changed. I have hooked back up some of my old standbys since (a breif listen to the 208es-r, which, unfortunately, the 126eN is not quite on the level of, though it probably puts out more usable bass...) the 108ESII and the 126eN are somewhat comparable, as I suspected. the 126eN sounding sweeter in a definitely good way, the 108esII having a fraction or two more ultimate detail.
would I want the 108ESII to sound sweeter? in the best of all possible worlds, yes. however I am simply unwilling to tweak with what I consider to be a classic. call me conservative.
Detail to me, in some ways I feel like terry (cain). terry was not all about ultimate, grinding, whispering detail necessarily. he was very concerned with preserving the initial energy of the performance throughout the signal chain. I feel similarly. ultimate, and I mean ULTIMATE detail should never be the only goal.
as I mentioned, it is a simple function of cone weight to flux density at VC. the 108ESII has one of the most extreme ratios I know of from any permanent magnet direct radiator. considering that I am comparing (on EQUAL footing a 500 dollar pair of drivers (that is worth EVERY cent) to a 225 pair of drivers (that is probably worth twice every cent...you get the idea...
the 126eN is certainly not lacking for detail either. it is there in spades when you need it. does not distract you from the enjoyment of the music. so in certain ways, it is a more well balanced driver than the 108esII even.
it is easier to power, gets louder (xmax plays a role here), which is good for a product of more general (not maniac) consumption.
For a while now, it has been commonly held wisdom to say that the 126e outperforms the 108EZ. both bone stock. Ed Schilling now RETROFITS his "The Horn" with the 126e upon customer request (to my knowledge).
This I agree with to an extent. but I still feel that the 108EZ has alot to offer. it is a refined presentation. very much HiFi and oozing class. I am all about the classy. the 126e has more balls, sure. but it sacrifices having that critical mass of sweetness that is needed for me to just loose myself in the music. the 108EZ, loss of awareness happens all the time.
the 108EZ will not impress frat boys (usually). the 126e certainly will. if you are like me, and you listen to a huge variety of music (mostly classical, trip hop, electronica, classic rock, blues, gritty underground recordings from all genres from my music making friends, etc.) You simply start to want things to chill out a little. I simply seek refinement of tone and dynamic presentation.
I feel that this 126eN driver simply takes what all is possible from the small genre full rangers, accomplishes it (all, or at least almost all), and then it costs a reasonable amount. not a frivilous expenditure, by any means, but worth the money no doubt.
It is funny because it sounds somewhat similar to the stock 126e, but trust me, if it sounded too much like the stock one I would not be writing a whole lot.
I guess I get very excited by small genre full rangers being taken so far. it is what I am most interested in in my own work. I have sold like 7 pairs of the "ugly duckling" horn so far (evolved from an old nagaoka design, FE83E). they have good dispersion, decent mid and upper bass, make a go for it on the low bass, and just sound pleasant. for most people, used to listening to their music on ipod docking stations, the bass is fine.
If you set them up equilateral triangle with sides of 4-6 feet with your head in a vice, stick an old mcintosh amp on em, they are probably the best imaging and close quarters dynamics speakers I know of... save for a few weird designs out there. but yeah. mega disappearing act.
the reason I put the 126eN and 108ESII in the same category, is that they both do this to an extreme extent, but still manage to have a lively, musical presentation. a pleasant point to prove. Far more dynamic in an absolute sense than their size suggests, which is probably the trait that distinguishes them the most from other small full rangers by the largest margin. very low QTS for horn loading, which is all that should be done with them, IMO.
I love the 103 and 107 too because they are the first drivers that really start to do all these traits in the fostex line.
BTW, I don't listen outside THAT much. only when I am in the mood to throw away the whole issue of room acoustics.
also, look into the old diatone/mitsubishi p610. it is another paradigm altering 5 incher. some hold that it is among the very short list of the best full rangers ever. super flat. well balanced. of course, like the coral betas, etc. in diminishing supply.
again, I have probably talked too much.
later, y'all
Clark
quote:
Originally posted by 77seriesIII
Here I was thinking that a 5" driver in no way could perform to this level. Thanks Blumeco for the cool writeup. Since your first listen to these speakers has your opinion on them changed? have you pulled them into the house (yes saw the outside listening room, good idea have to try it once the snow starts to melt...) and put the drivers through the paces? What other types of music have your tried and your opinion on the capability to handle the different types music (classical, jazz to rock, etc.) would be really cool.
BTW cool speaker designs!
__________________
Clark:
1) Ed now ships new Hornshoppe speakers exclusively with matched, but otherwise stock (as best we know) FE126E, and has also had substantial numbers of earlier customers upgrade from either FE108ES or "Sigma" versions.
He has made it quite clear that he is not a big fan of modding drivers for it's own sake, but it would be very interesting to treat him to a blind test of this particular treatment. However, for reasons that you may not be aware, that's rather unlikely.
2) Thanks for the spirited review. The more folks that get a chance to hear EnABL+ treated drivers, the better.
1) Ed now ships new Hornshoppe speakers exclusively with matched, but otherwise stock (as best we know) FE126E, and has also had substantial numbers of earlier customers upgrade from either FE108ES or "Sigma" versions.
He has made it quite clear that he is not a big fan of modding drivers for it's own sake, but it would be very interesting to treat him to a blind test of this particular treatment. However, for reasons that you may not be aware, that's rather unlikely.
2) Thanks for the spirited review. The more folks that get a chance to hear EnABL+ treated drivers, the better.
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