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Old 1st November 2007, 10:56 AM   #1
Bluto is offline Bluto  United States
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Default Dumb Newbee Questions

I've pretty much decided that FR's is the route I want to go.

I've spent all kinds of time lurking on many forums but can't find the direct answers to the questions I have.

I'm not after biased opinions, we all have them, what I need more than anything is honesty because I'm a novice.

Much of my decision is not based on me believing FR is a better sounding speaker, I honestly don't know as I've only heard low buck FR's. I've played a little with some of those myself and next experiment will be with those less expensive drivers in an MLTL. There is something illusive about them I like. At the same time I must admit as many non Fans continually point out there are both highs and lows missing. I realize this is a source of argument among purist Fans of FR's who I continually see claim that with this or that driver the full spectrum of octaves is realized. I don't want to go there, there are just as many who claim these people can't see the forest for the trees. I hate crossovers. I don't hate them because I believe I can hear them because I must honestly say I don't know if I do. I've never owned 'audiophile ' ( hate that word) grade equipment but I have owned high mid end stuff and I'm not really sure. Perhaps it is my ears or I am hearing the crossovers and the illusiveness I describe is the lack of hearing the crossovers. I hate them because I can't build them and at this point don't have the patience to learn. Butterworth is what I put on my pancakes. These 2 facts combined as well as the expense involved of buying woofs, mids, tweets and building an x-over as well are what have motivated me towards FR. The Zen in me also just digs the simplicity.

With that in mind and my limited experience with them I've also looked at 1000 cabinet designs for Horns and MLTL's as well as 200 different drivers. I listen to everything from Blues to Classical to 50's Rock to Jazz and most points in between. The only source I'm currently running is digital HT as all 3 of my analogs have taken a poop. Now we're talking high power. I've played with TB, Pioneer and Sammi FR drivers, none of it near the quality of CSS, Fostex or Jordan. Nontheless this stuff was rated at 60 - 80 watts but none of it could give me any volume without clipping. Admittingly sensitivity on all of these is pretty crappy running between 84 and 89. These were all 8ohm so I still see no reason for this other than we're dealing with drivers between 4" and 5.25" . I guess that becomes question #1. Is this what I should expect unless I switch to an analog source or find drivers with SPL's in the mid 90's? Guys, I need my volume!!

To Me the spectrum runs from 30 to 20,000. If I'm going to go FR that's what I want to hear and I don't want to need 8 drivers to do so.... the purpose has been defeated. I don't mind running a tweeter but tweeked or not I don't like piezo's and that brings us back to electronics where I have absolutely zero knowledge. I'm told you can run a standard tweeter hooked up to an FR without a crossover and just a capacitor. I knew this was true regards piezo's but didn't think it true regards standard tweeters. Is such the case and will I find help here for an old fart with this?

I can live without deafening booming bass but would need to hear at least into the high 30's or low 40's. Where my thoughts have been running have been to build something like Planet 10's Fonkens with either CSS OR 4.5" Fostex drivers for a top end and build some type of bass horn or shorter MLTL with a larger Fostex (6.5") for a bottom end to get me some decent bass extension. I'm thinking if I mate the small driver on top with a good tweet ( if such is possible without extensive electronics) I'd have some decent speakers that covered most of the range I'm after and could still handle digital power sources and create decent volume .

I realize this is all real old stuff for most of you. I just started reading on it several months back after being stuck in a bass reflex frame of mind for 30 years. Please humor me and be patient. I'm pretty ignorant but I'm not dumb. Both are forgivable anyway. All thoughts much appreciated.

Bluto
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Old 1st November 2007, 11:13 AM   #2
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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Default Re: Dumb Newbee Questions

Quote:
Originally posted by Bluto
....................To Me the spectrum runs from 30 to 20,000. If I'm going to go FR that's what I want to hear and I don't want to need 8 drivers to do so.... the purpose has been defeated. I don't mind running a tweeter but tweeked or not I don't like piezo's and that brings us back to electronics where I have absolutely zero knowledge. I'm told you can run a standard tweeter hooked up to an FR without a crossover and just a capacitor. I knew this was true regards piezo's but didn't think it true regards standard tweeters. Is such the case and will I find help here for an old fart with this? .............
Hi,
it took me a while to find your question.
A simple single pole crossover is just a low pass filter on the bass/mid driver and a high pass filter on the treble driver.
An appropriate inductor forms the low pass filter and an appropriate capacitor forms the high pass filter.
Just two components and you have a crossover.
But, it probably won't sound nice. That's what you get doing it cheaply and without correcting the anomalies that exist in all drivers.
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Old 1st November 2007, 01:16 PM   #3
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Even FR drivers need filters, check out what the Visaton B200 (probably one of the widest response drivers available) requires:

http://www.visaton.com/en/bauvorschl...anleitung.html

I think there's a thread about it around here somewhere.

"the spectrum runs from 30 to 20,000. If I'm going to go FR that's what I want to hear and I don't want to need 8 drivers to do so.... " realistically, you'll need at least 2... the good thing about going FR is that you can add extra drivers later if you aren't satisfied...
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Old 1st November 2007, 06:03 PM   #4
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Welcome to the forum Jeff.

Quote:
Originally posted by PeteMcK
Even FR drivers need filters, check out what the Visaton B200 (probably one of the widest response drivers available) requires:
Most of the problems that are addressed by the filter on the B200, can also be fixed at the source with phase plugs.

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Old 1st November 2007, 06:52 PM   #5
Bluto is offline Bluto  United States
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Andrew- " just 2 components and you have a crossover..... "

I hear many of the guys at the multi driver sites making similar statements. They'll tell you it's pointless to buy a pre- built 2 or 3 way crossover for the same reason. Why do the same people who run some of these forums then both manufacture and sell them? If an FR has a stated frequency range from , say, 55 hz - 22,000 khz and I don't care about anything below 55 why do I need any electronics at all? Are you referring to the same spikes and dips inherent in woofs, mids and tweets being also existent commonplace amongst FR drivers or are there those amongst Fans of FR that have the same desire to 'super tune' as the multi driver guys? Do the same principles of taking into account TSP vs. cabinet dimensions etc., etc. still apply with every FR driver and design? Thus far in my searches I've seen guys throwing every driver under the Sun that covered at least 2/3 of the octaves into any type of enclosure imaginable. Do most of these sound as bad as if I were to mis match woofs, mids and tweets with any 3way x-over I could find into any cabinet I had laying around? Looks like I'm not going to get away easy. Thanks for your reply.

Bluto ( I done it)
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Old 1st November 2007, 07:20 PM   #6
Bluto is offline Bluto  United States
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Pete -

" Even FR drivers need filters .... "

Have I just happened to look at designs that showed this being unnecessary? I'm not being argumentative, I'm just asking. I swear, I 've looked at 200 of them showing guys slapping in an FR driver and hooking up the leads. I saw none of the '4th order this, Linkweitz-Riley that , notch filter here, blah, blah ' on any of the places I visited. Worse case scenario I saw was a guy switching capacitors until he had a value he was happy with hooking up a piezo. The Visation situation looks doable to me, with a bit of help I can see myself capable of that and at nowhere near the expense of some of the crossovers I've seen designed for 3 ways.

" Realistically you'll need at least 2 .... "

I appreciate that, I've heard too many guys say that manufacturer hype about not needing a tweeter is just that. Thanks for reply.

Bluto
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Old 1st November 2007, 07:28 PM   #7
Bluto is offline Bluto  United States
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Thanks Dave

Will every FR driver and every cabinet configuration have it's own nuances? Big question, I know, comment loosely when you have time. If you can, point me to where I should be reading on this site. This isn't going to be as easy as building the B20 projects now that I've started looking at better drivers.


Jeff - AKA Bluto
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Old 1st November 2007, 08:12 PM   #8
felixx is offline felixx  Romania
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I heard KM30 coaxial from PHY on open baffle and also on semi open baffle....something like Ocellia.
Simply amaizing.

http://www.phy-hp.com/English/Products/KM30_SAG_E.html
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Old 2nd November 2007, 01:50 AM   #9
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Bluto,
you seem to have a pretty good idea of what you want, pick the FR design that appeals to you most and go for it....
let us know how you get on.

Just be aware that it's an iterative process i.e. once you've finished you'll say to yourself 'what would happen if I changed this?"... (and nobody's caught the guy who keeps moving the goalposts yet :-)
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Old 2nd November 2007, 12:58 PM   #10
Bluto is offline Bluto  United States
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PeteMcK -

Thanks for that.

I've been to sites where supposed experts state theory regards this working and that not working and then gone to another site and seen someone break near to all of that 'experts' rules and 20 more guys build this guys design while all touting it's virtues.

I've looked at designs that didn't seem to Me to be efficient at all yet many have built that design as well and all making claims of it's wonders.

I've been real impressed with much of what I've seen European guys doing as well as College kids building on the cheap. They don't seem to be interested in following anyones rules.

I've had real success playing with my little FR's here in makeshift cardboard and OSB boxes of my own design and other than the clipping I described in my initial post I had no problem and that without any filters. Those successes combined with testimony from guys who started with B20 projects then became enthused to the point of moving up to Lowther ,Jordan or Fostex drivers has been my motivation to start something serious with better drivers .

I guess my main concern is making a large investment in both time and material and then finding my FR project being incapable of handling a solid state digital source while still providing volume. I'll fix or replace my analog stuff, I much prefer it for my music but I don't want to not be able to use my FR's for HT. Right now I'm thinking a combo as I mentioned of the FE167E as a top and the FE206E as a bottom end ought to work with both. I'll run a simple Y adapter from one channel to power them and 'tune' each box individually for HT. SPL is high enough on both of them to fire up easily regards analog and wattage ratings make me believe that a combined 80 watts should not be a problem for digital solid state . Add a decent tweet and I should be in business.

You are correct, I'm not going to know until and unless I actually build. They can't sound worse than some of what I've purchased over the years and I'm not afraid to make changes if necessary.

I just wish some other guys would chime in and address my concerns regards the digital solid state signal . I'm aware that to most FR guys if it isn't tube or tripath you're not a purist but I can't believe all of them are living without HT .

Thanks again - Bluto
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