I've pretty much decided that FR's is the route I want to go.
I've spent all kinds of time lurking on many forums but can't find the direct answers to the questions I have.
I'm not after biased opinions, we all have them, what I need more than anything is honesty because I'm a novice.
Much of my decision is not based on me believing FR is a better sounding speaker, I honestly don't know as I've only heard low buck FR's. I've played a little with some of those myself and next experiment will be with those less expensive drivers in an MLTL. There is something illusive about them I like. At the same time I must admit as many non Fans continually point out there are both highs and lows missing. I realize this is a source of argument among purist Fans of FR's who I continually see claim that with this or that driver the full spectrum of octaves is realized. I don't want to go there, there are just as many who claim these people can't see the forest for the trees. I hate crossovers. I don't hate them because I believe I can hear them because I must honestly say I don't know if I do. I've never owned 'audiophile ' ( hate that word) grade equipment but I have owned high mid end stuff and I'm not really sure. Perhaps it is my ears or I am hearing the crossovers and the illusiveness I describe is the lack of hearing the crossovers. I hate them because I can't build them and at this point don't have the patience to learn. Butterworth is what I put on my pancakes.
These 2 facts combined as well as the expense involved of buying woofs, mids, tweets and building an x-over as well are what have motivated me towards FR. The Zen in me also just digs the simplicity.
With that in mind and my limited experience with them I've also looked at 1000 cabinet designs for Horns and MLTL's as well as 200 different drivers. I listen to everything from Blues to Classical to 50's Rock to Jazz and most points in between. The only source I'm currently running is digital HT as all 3 of my analogs have taken a poop. Now we're talking high power. I've played with TB, Pioneer and Sammi FR drivers, none of it near the quality of CSS, Fostex or Jordan. Nontheless this stuff was rated at 60 - 80 watts but none of it could give me any volume without clipping. Admittingly sensitivity on all of these is pretty crappy running between 84 and 89. These were all 8ohm so I still see no reason for this other than we're dealing with drivers between 4" and 5.25" . I guess that becomes question #1. Is this what I should expect unless I switch to an analog source or find drivers with SPL's in the mid 90's? Guys, I need my volume!!
To Me the spectrum runs from 30 to 20,000. If I'm going to go FR that's what I want to hear and I don't want to need 8 drivers to do so.... the purpose has been defeated. I don't mind running a tweeter but tweeked or not I don't like piezo's and that brings us back to electronics where I have absolutely zero knowledge. I'm told you can run a standard tweeter hooked up to an FR without a crossover and just a capacitor. I knew this was true regards piezo's but didn't think it true regards standard tweeters. Is such the case and will I find help here for an old fart with this?
I can live without deafening booming bass but would need to hear at least into the high 30's or low 40's. Where my thoughts have been running have been to build something like Planet 10's Fonkens with either CSS OR 4.5" Fostex drivers for a top end and build some type of bass horn or shorter MLTL with a larger Fostex (6.5") for a bottom end to get me some decent bass extension. I'm thinking if I mate the small driver on top with a good tweet ( if such is possible without extensive electronics) I'd have some decent speakers that covered most of the range I'm after and could still handle digital power sources and create decent volume .
I realize this is all real old stuff for most of you. I just started reading on it several months back after being stuck in a bass reflex frame of mind for 30 years. Please humor me and be patient. I'm pretty ignorant but I'm not dumb. Both are forgivable anyway. All thoughts much appreciated.
Bluto
I've spent all kinds of time lurking on many forums but can't find the direct answers to the questions I have.
I'm not after biased opinions, we all have them, what I need more than anything is honesty because I'm a novice.
Much of my decision is not based on me believing FR is a better sounding speaker, I honestly don't know as I've only heard low buck FR's. I've played a little with some of those myself and next experiment will be with those less expensive drivers in an MLTL. There is something illusive about them I like. At the same time I must admit as many non Fans continually point out there are both highs and lows missing. I realize this is a source of argument among purist Fans of FR's who I continually see claim that with this or that driver the full spectrum of octaves is realized. I don't want to go there, there are just as many who claim these people can't see the forest for the trees. I hate crossovers. I don't hate them because I believe I can hear them because I must honestly say I don't know if I do. I've never owned 'audiophile ' ( hate that word) grade equipment but I have owned high mid end stuff and I'm not really sure. Perhaps it is my ears or I am hearing the crossovers and the illusiveness I describe is the lack of hearing the crossovers. I hate them because I can't build them and at this point don't have the patience to learn. Butterworth is what I put on my pancakes.
These 2 facts combined as well as the expense involved of buying woofs, mids, tweets and building an x-over as well are what have motivated me towards FR. The Zen in me also just digs the simplicity. With that in mind and my limited experience with them I've also looked at 1000 cabinet designs for Horns and MLTL's as well as 200 different drivers. I listen to everything from Blues to Classical to 50's Rock to Jazz and most points in between. The only source I'm currently running is digital HT as all 3 of my analogs have taken a poop. Now we're talking high power. I've played with TB, Pioneer and Sammi FR drivers, none of it near the quality of CSS, Fostex or Jordan. Nontheless this stuff was rated at 60 - 80 watts but none of it could give me any volume without clipping. Admittingly sensitivity on all of these is pretty crappy running between 84 and 89. These were all 8ohm so I still see no reason for this other than we're dealing with drivers between 4" and 5.25" . I guess that becomes question #1. Is this what I should expect unless I switch to an analog source or find drivers with SPL's in the mid 90's? Guys, I need my volume!!
To Me the spectrum runs from 30 to 20,000. If I'm going to go FR that's what I want to hear and I don't want to need 8 drivers to do so.... the purpose has been defeated. I don't mind running a tweeter but tweeked or not I don't like piezo's and that brings us back to electronics where I have absolutely zero knowledge. I'm told you can run a standard tweeter hooked up to an FR without a crossover and just a capacitor. I knew this was true regards piezo's but didn't think it true regards standard tweeters. Is such the case and will I find help here for an old fart with this?
I can live without deafening booming bass but would need to hear at least into the high 30's or low 40's. Where my thoughts have been running have been to build something like Planet 10's Fonkens with either CSS OR 4.5" Fostex drivers for a top end and build some type of bass horn or shorter MLTL with a larger Fostex (6.5") for a bottom end to get me some decent bass extension. I'm thinking if I mate the small driver on top with a good tweet ( if such is possible without extensive electronics) I'd have some decent speakers that covered most of the range I'm after and could still handle digital power sources and create decent volume .
I realize this is all real old stuff for most of you. I just started reading on it several months back after being stuck in a bass reflex frame of mind for 30 years. Please humor me and be patient. I'm pretty ignorant but I'm not dumb. Both are forgivable anyway. All thoughts much appreciated.
Bluto
Hi,Bluto said:
it took me a while to find your question.
A simple single pole crossover is just a low pass filter on the bass/mid driver and a high pass filter on the treble driver.
An appropriate inductor forms the low pass filter and an appropriate capacitor forms the high pass filter.
Just two components and you have a crossover.
But, it probably won't sound nice. That's what you get doing it cheaply and without correcting the anomalies that exist in all drivers.
Even FR drivers need filters, check out what the Visaton B200 (probably one of the widest response drivers available) requires:
http://www.visaton.com/en/bauvorschlaege/breitband/solo100/bauanleitung.html
I think there's a thread about it around here somewhere.
"the spectrum runs from 30 to 20,000. If I'm going to go FR that's what I want to hear and I don't want to need 8 drivers to do so.... " realistically, you'll need at least 2... the good thing about going FR is that you can add extra drivers later if you aren't satisfied...
http://www.visaton.com/en/bauvorschlaege/breitband/solo100/bauanleitung.html
I think there's a thread about it around here somewhere.
"the spectrum runs from 30 to 20,000. If I'm going to go FR that's what I want to hear and I don't want to need 8 drivers to do so.... " realistically, you'll need at least 2... the good thing about going FR is that you can add extra drivers later if you aren't satisfied...
Andrew- " just 2 components and you have a crossover..... "
I hear many of the guys at the multi driver sites making similar statements. They'll tell you it's pointless to buy a pre- built 2 or 3 way crossover for the same reason. Why do the same people who run some of these forums then both manufacture and sell them? If an FR has a stated frequency range from , say, 55 hz - 22,000 khz and I don't care about anything below 55 why do I need any electronics at all? Are you referring to the same spikes and dips inherent in woofs, mids and tweets being also existent commonplace amongst FR drivers or are there those amongst Fans of FR that have the same desire to 'super tune' as the multi driver guys? Do the same principles of taking into account TSP vs. cabinet dimensions etc., etc. still apply with every FR driver and design? Thus far in my searches I've seen guys throwing every driver under the Sun that covered at least 2/3 of the octaves into any type of enclosure imaginable. Do most of these sound as bad as if I were to mis match woofs, mids and tweets with any 3way x-over I could find into any cabinet I had laying around? Looks like I'm not going to get away easy. Thanks for your reply.
Bluto ( I done it)
I hear many of the guys at the multi driver sites making similar statements. They'll tell you it's pointless to buy a pre- built 2 or 3 way crossover for the same reason. Why do the same people who run some of these forums then both manufacture and sell them? If an FR has a stated frequency range from , say, 55 hz - 22,000 khz and I don't care about anything below 55 why do I need any electronics at all? Are you referring to the same spikes and dips inherent in woofs, mids and tweets being also existent commonplace amongst FR drivers or are there those amongst Fans of FR that have the same desire to 'super tune' as the multi driver guys? Do the same principles of taking into account TSP vs. cabinet dimensions etc., etc. still apply with every FR driver and design? Thus far in my searches I've seen guys throwing every driver under the Sun that covered at least 2/3 of the octaves into any type of enclosure imaginable. Do most of these sound as bad as if I were to mis match woofs, mids and tweets with any 3way x-over I could find into any cabinet I had laying around? Looks like I'm not going to get away easy. Thanks for your reply.
Bluto ( I done it)
Pete -
" Even FR drivers need filters .... "
Have I just happened to look at designs that showed this being unnecessary? I'm not being argumentative, I'm just asking. I swear, I 've looked at 200 of them showing guys slapping in an FR driver and hooking up the leads. I saw none of the '4th order this, Linkweitz-Riley that , notch filter here, blah, blah ' on any of the places I visited. Worse case scenario I saw was a guy switching capacitors until he had a value he was happy with hooking up a piezo. The Visation situation looks doable to me, with a bit of help I can see myself capable of that and at nowhere near the expense of some of the crossovers I've seen designed for 3 ways.
" Realistically you'll need at least 2 .... "
I appreciate that, I've heard too many guys say that manufacturer hype about not needing a tweeter is just that. Thanks for reply.
Bluto
" Even FR drivers need filters .... "
Have I just happened to look at designs that showed this being unnecessary? I'm not being argumentative, I'm just asking. I swear, I 've looked at 200 of them showing guys slapping in an FR driver and hooking up the leads. I saw none of the '4th order this, Linkweitz-Riley that , notch filter here, blah, blah ' on any of the places I visited. Worse case scenario I saw was a guy switching capacitors until he had a value he was happy with hooking up a piezo. The Visation situation looks doable to me, with a bit of help I can see myself capable of that and at nowhere near the expense of some of the crossovers I've seen designed for 3 ways.
" Realistically you'll need at least 2 .... "
I appreciate that, I've heard too many guys say that manufacturer hype about not needing a tweeter is just that. Thanks for reply.
Bluto
Thanks Dave
Will every FR driver and every cabinet configuration have it's own nuances? Big question, I know, comment loosely when you have time. If you can, point me to where I should be reading on this site. This isn't going to be as easy as building the B20 projects now that I've started looking at better drivers.
Jeff - AKA Bluto
Will every FR driver and every cabinet configuration have it's own nuances? Big question, I know, comment loosely when you have time. If you can, point me to where I should be reading on this site. This isn't going to be as easy as building the B20 projects now that I've started looking at better drivers.
Jeff - AKA Bluto
I heard KM30 coaxial from PHY on open baffle and also on semi open baffle....something like Ocellia.
Simply amaizing.
http://www.phy-hp.com/English/Products/KM30_SAG_E.html
Simply amaizing.
http://www.phy-hp.com/English/Products/KM30_SAG_E.html
Bluto,
you seem to have a pretty good idea of what you want, pick the FR design that appeals to you most and go for it....
let us know how you get on.
Just be aware that it's an iterative process i.e. once you've finished you'll say to yourself 'what would happen if I changed this?"... (and nobody's caught the guy who keeps moving the goalposts yet
you seem to have a pretty good idea of what you want, pick the FR design that appeals to you most and go for it....
let us know how you get on.
Just be aware that it's an iterative process i.e. once you've finished you'll say to yourself 'what would happen if I changed this?"... (and nobody's caught the guy who keeps moving the goalposts yet
PeteMcK -
Thanks for that.
I've been to sites where supposed experts state theory regards this working and that not working and then gone to another site and seen someone break near to all of that 'experts' rules and 20 more guys build this guys design while all touting it's virtues.
I've looked at designs that didn't seem to Me to be efficient at all yet many have built that design as well and all making claims of it's wonders.
I've been real impressed with much of what I've seen European guys doing as well as College kids building on the cheap. They don't seem to be interested in following anyones rules.
I've had real success playing with my little FR's here in makeshift cardboard and OSB boxes of my own design and other than the clipping I described in my initial post I had no problem and that without any filters. Those successes combined with testimony from guys who started with B20 projects then became enthused to the point of moving up to Lowther ,Jordan or Fostex drivers has been my motivation to start something serious with better drivers .
I guess my main concern is making a large investment in both time and material and then finding my FR project being incapable of handling a solid state digital source while still providing volume. I'll fix or replace my analog stuff, I much prefer it for my music but I don't want to not be able to use my FR's for HT. Right now I'm thinking a combo as I mentioned of the FE167E as a top and the FE206E as a bottom end ought to work with both. I'll run a simple Y adapter from one channel to power them and 'tune' each box individually for HT. SPL is high enough on both of them to fire up easily regards analog and wattage ratings make me believe that a combined 80 watts should not be a problem for digital solid state . Add a decent tweet and I should be in business.
You are correct, I'm not going to know until and unless I actually build. They can't sound worse than some of what I've purchased over the years and I'm not afraid to make changes if necessary.
I just wish some other guys would chime in and address my concerns regards the digital solid state signal . I'm aware that to most FR guys if it isn't tube or tripath you're not a purist but I can't believe all of them are living without HT .
Thanks again - Bluto
Thanks for that.
I've been to sites where supposed experts state theory regards this working and that not working and then gone to another site and seen someone break near to all of that 'experts' rules and 20 more guys build this guys design while all touting it's virtues.
I've looked at designs that didn't seem to Me to be efficient at all yet many have built that design as well and all making claims of it's wonders.
I've been real impressed with much of what I've seen European guys doing as well as College kids building on the cheap. They don't seem to be interested in following anyones rules.
I've had real success playing with my little FR's here in makeshift cardboard and OSB boxes of my own design and other than the clipping I described in my initial post I had no problem and that without any filters. Those successes combined with testimony from guys who started with B20 projects then became enthused to the point of moving up to Lowther ,Jordan or Fostex drivers has been my motivation to start something serious with better drivers .
I guess my main concern is making a large investment in both time and material and then finding my FR project being incapable of handling a solid state digital source while still providing volume. I'll fix or replace my analog stuff, I much prefer it for my music but I don't want to not be able to use my FR's for HT. Right now I'm thinking a combo as I mentioned of the FE167E as a top and the FE206E as a bottom end ought to work with both. I'll run a simple Y adapter from one channel to power them and 'tune' each box individually for HT. SPL is high enough on both of them to fire up easily regards analog and wattage ratings make me believe that a combined 80 watts should not be a problem for digital solid state . Add a decent tweet and I should be in business.
You are correct, I'm not going to know until and unless I actually build. They can't sound worse than some of what I've purchased over the years and I'm not afraid to make changes if necessary.
I just wish some other guys would chime in and address my concerns regards the digital solid state signal . I'm aware that to most FR guys if it isn't tube or tripath you're not a purist but I can't believe all of them are living without HT .
Thanks again - Bluto
I am experimenting with the Tangband 4" titanium and the Hemptone 4.5' extended range drivers for both music and HT. Paired with a good powered subwoofer they both work fine crossed over at 80HZ and give all the volume you could ask for in a 12x18 room. If I had the space however, for additional headroom, I would use the front drivers in a bipole for those HT movies with extraordinary loud sound effects( plus the one or two subwoofers). I prefer the TB titanium over the Hemp. Although the Hemp is pleasant to listen to the TB titanium is much cleaner sounding. I am convinced that the 4-5" extended range drivers work very well in HT applications if you divert everything below 80hz to a powered sub. I will probably use them in a dipole, bipole or omni arrangement for the rear channels.
Hi LAL -
Thats good to hear. The TB I'm playing with is the W4-657SB. Pretty decent range. This is the driver that gave me the most trouble with clipping from the digital source. What's strange is that the least problem I've had is with the little PIO's (NSB) and although I can't find any actual specs on these I'm told they were only rated at about 10 watts whereas the TB is supposedly rated at 30-60 watts. I just started playing with these little Pio's several months ago - an amazing little speaker! The TB has some of the most articulate reproduction I've ever heard. I'm currently running big old Sansui's coupled with JBL 2 ways and I found myself hearing voices, sounds and lyrics in my music I'd never heard before with these little TB's.
I've got to put aside the pre-conceived notion I got from the sites I'd read at that these FR's don't need any electronic filtering to get what you want out of them. It's simply highly likely that as you say signals below 80hz prevented me from getting any more volume out of them before the clipping started.
I'm really getting sold on the FR concept and can't imagine how good they'd sound in a decent Horn or MLTL with more expensive drivers when they sound as good as they do with just the little I've played with them and inexpensive drivers at that.
I'm thinking Zigmahornets for these little TB's. An easy project.
Thanks - Bluto
Thats good to hear. The TB I'm playing with is the W4-657SB. Pretty decent range. This is the driver that gave me the most trouble with clipping from the digital source. What's strange is that the least problem I've had is with the little PIO's (NSB) and although I can't find any actual specs on these I'm told they were only rated at about 10 watts whereas the TB is supposedly rated at 30-60 watts. I just started playing with these little Pio's several months ago - an amazing little speaker! The TB has some of the most articulate reproduction I've ever heard. I'm currently running big old Sansui's coupled with JBL 2 ways and I found myself hearing voices, sounds and lyrics in my music I'd never heard before with these little TB's.
I've got to put aside the pre-conceived notion I got from the sites I'd read at that these FR's don't need any electronic filtering to get what you want out of them. It's simply highly likely that as you say signals below 80hz prevented me from getting any more volume out of them before the clipping started.
I'm really getting sold on the FR concept and can't imagine how good they'd sound in a decent Horn or MLTL with more expensive drivers when they sound as good as they do with just the little I've played with them and inexpensive drivers at that.
I'm thinking Zigmahornets for these little TB's. An easy project.
Thanks - Bluto
Bluto said:
I think you are moving in the right direction. As for digital, I run a Squeeze Box 3, to a Marantz Pm7001 (70w SS), to Jordan Jx92s in .25 cu ft. sealed cabs. To round off the bottom a CSS Sd12 sub. All off the shelf stuff (Jordans were put into cabs from parts express), and the setup is as good as or easily betters any of the stuff I have built.
I have used Fe206e, TB W4-1320, Visaton B200, with tube and digital amps. Up until now the progression of equipment has been for a learning experience, and great tunes.
Fullrange (widerangers) sometimes have a tendency to beam. Which is fine if you are the only one watching the movie. I would seek out members that have used fullrangers for HT.
I don't mean to muddy the water, but coaxial speakers can give you the sensitivity and dbls you need for HT as well as a single time coherence almost of fullrange. Check out here: http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/ I know that quite a few of them use HT. look for "Bob in St. Louis"
Hi Corloc -
Ya know, I'm getting more help here in 2 days than I got in a month at the last Forum I was involved in!
Thank You and all the guys who have contributed. I'm 57 and a Plebe at this and I appreciate all this help and advice more than you guys know.
I had run into Dave through an Ebay ad He ran and He was kind enough to answer several e-mails despite the fact I haven't purchased a thing from him as yet. I told him of my plans and my problems getting answers and he suggested I join this group. Wish I'd have done so sooner, would have saved much frustration.
Your advice is greatly appreciated. The Jordan is on my list. I bought the TB's only because I got them from a guy who'd measured depth wrong and realized he couldn't use them so I paid less than half what they run new and he hadn't even mounted them once he saw his mistake. I'll only use them until I get my front mains built and then they will likely go onto a smaller enclosure for Dining room speakers.
You don't muddy the waters at all with Hawthorne. I had spent about 2 hours there a month back. Very impressive place.
Amongst my analog that crapped out on me is a Quad that I also intend on getting fixed but I don't have alot of material for anymore ( getting hard to find too!) so I also need rears as well as surrounds and I'm not near those decisions yet but the 10" definitely would make some nice quad rears. I'll spend more time there as well.
You've helped me lessen my fear regards my digital problem as well. Appreciated.
Bluto
Ya know, I'm getting more help here in 2 days than I got in a month at the last Forum I was involved in!
Thank You and all the guys who have contributed. I'm 57 and a Plebe at this and I appreciate all this help and advice more than you guys know.
I had run into Dave through an Ebay ad He ran and He was kind enough to answer several e-mails despite the fact I haven't purchased a thing from him as yet. I told him of my plans and my problems getting answers and he suggested I join this group. Wish I'd have done so sooner, would have saved much frustration.
Your advice is greatly appreciated. The Jordan is on my list. I bought the TB's only because I got them from a guy who'd measured depth wrong and realized he couldn't use them so I paid less than half what they run new and he hadn't even mounted them once he saw his mistake. I'll only use them until I get my front mains built and then they will likely go onto a smaller enclosure for Dining room speakers.
You don't muddy the waters at all with Hawthorne. I had spent about 2 hours there a month back. Very impressive place.
Amongst my analog that crapped out on me is a Quad that I also intend on getting fixed but I don't have alot of material for anymore ( getting hard to find too!) so I also need rears as well as surrounds and I'm not near those decisions yet but the 10" definitely would make some nice quad rears. I'll spend more time there as well.
You've helped me lessen my fear regards my digital problem as well. Appreciated.
Bluto
Good glad I could help. You will find lots of friendly advice on this forum.
Dave is a big help, you will find him all over these threads. I bought some phase plugs from him, and wouldn't hesitate buying from him again.
His loss your gain on the TB. The only set of drivers I have sold were my Fe206e. The Fe206e were turned into a 500 GB drive to store music files. If you go full digital with audio you might try peek at http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?board=46.0
Quad as in quadraphonic? That is a setup that I have not heard, and I would assume that material is hard to find.
Dave is a big help, you will find him all over these threads. I bought some phase plugs from him, and wouldn't hesitate buying from him again.
His loss your gain on the TB. The only set of drivers I have sold were my Fe206e. The Fe206e were turned into a 500 GB drive to store music files. If you go full digital with audio you might try peek at http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?board=46.0
Quad as in quadraphonic? That is a setup that I have not heard, and I would assume that material is hard to find.
Corloc -
Friendly works. Been reading old threads and haven't ran into a Flame War yet, they must be here, but refreshing so far.
Thanks for link, it'll be digital for awhile. No more Ebay analog for me, 4 receivers sitting here promised by seller as fully functional all in need of repair. Big chunk of change. Only gona fix one , rest go as parts and I know it's gona be expensive to fix the keeper.
Quad is the fixer, yes, quadraphonic. Format was around from about 69 - 80. Never caught on. Good quad was expensive, cheap quad sounded like crap. Only truly discrete sources were 8 track and reel to reel. Vinyl required special stylus and constant signal changes within Industry made for much not so hot material as well as confusion. Most audiophiles happy to see it go. To Me, good quad has it's own sound that on many recordings can't be beat. Much depended on the Engineer setting up the mix. Set-up I have here is over 6k in early 70's money. Really want to get it all working.
BTW. Been back to Hawthorne. 'Bob' does some nice work. Pretty impressive site.
Thanks - Bluto
Friendly works. Been reading old threads and haven't ran into a Flame War yet, they must be here, but refreshing so far.
Thanks for link, it'll be digital for awhile. No more Ebay analog for me, 4 receivers sitting here promised by seller as fully functional all in need of repair. Big chunk of change. Only gona fix one , rest go as parts and I know it's gona be expensive to fix the keeper.
Quad is the fixer, yes, quadraphonic. Format was around from about 69 - 80. Never caught on. Good quad was expensive, cheap quad sounded like crap. Only truly discrete sources were 8 track and reel to reel. Vinyl required special stylus and constant signal changes within Industry made for much not so hot material as well as confusion. Most audiophiles happy to see it go. To Me, good quad has it's own sound that on many recordings can't be beat. Much depended on the Engineer setting up the mix. Set-up I have here is over 6k in early 70's money. Really want to get it all working.
BTW. Been back to Hawthorne. 'Bob' does some nice work. Pretty impressive site.
Thanks - Bluto
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