Can't Decide : 127 or 167 or a 3 or 4" TB
Hello All!
Hope this isn't a blatant repost - in all my searches - I see questions on individual drivers - this post is pretty much - there's all these drivers - I can't make up my mind!
Looking at building my first pair of speakers.
Can't decide which drivers to build my cabinets around.
A couple things -
Value : The less expensive at his point in life, the better - BUT, I still want to be happy with what I choose to build. (I'm in Canada, so reccomendations / experiences on where to get equipment is a bonus.)
AMP : I have a couple options, but would like something that can be driven by the SI T-Amp. That's why it's looking like the Fostex are better options becasue of sensitivity - But the TB look oh so sexy.
Size : My wife will go nuts if I build anything large. SO - I love the look of needles, the look of other needle lookalikes with a horn firing backwards, Also love small bookshelf designs.
Examples - The Tekton and Fritz designs on ebay using Fostex drivers really appeal to me in terms of very small size. Wondering what the design inside would be like to get 55hz lowers out of the 4.5" driver as stated on this auction page:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Tekton-Design-F...ryZ14991QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Skill : I'm not to afraid to try anything. I have all the tools I'd need to do a speaker cabinet, and if I don't know how to do something, I love learning.
Am I missing anything? Any suggestions?
Basically - I don't have a ton of money, but want a good musical speaker for everyday listening. Less Money = better, but again, if you feel the jump up in cash hits a "sweet spot" not available in a lower price range - I'll very much consider it.
Questions, Answers, Suggestions - welcome them all!
Jonathan
Hello All!
Hope this isn't a blatant repost - in all my searches - I see questions on individual drivers - this post is pretty much - there's all these drivers - I can't make up my mind!
Looking at building my first pair of speakers.
Can't decide which drivers to build my cabinets around.
A couple things -
Value : The less expensive at his point in life, the better - BUT, I still want to be happy with what I choose to build. (I'm in Canada, so reccomendations / experiences on where to get equipment is a bonus.)
AMP : I have a couple options, but would like something that can be driven by the SI T-Amp. That's why it's looking like the Fostex are better options becasue of sensitivity - But the TB look oh so sexy.
Size : My wife will go nuts if I build anything large. SO - I love the look of needles, the look of other needle lookalikes with a horn firing backwards, Also love small bookshelf designs.
Examples - The Tekton and Fritz designs on ebay using Fostex drivers really appeal to me in terms of very small size. Wondering what the design inside would be like to get 55hz lowers out of the 4.5" driver as stated on this auction page:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Tekton-Design-F...ryZ14991QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Skill : I'm not to afraid to try anything. I have all the tools I'd need to do a speaker cabinet, and if I don't know how to do something, I love learning.
Am I missing anything? Any suggestions?
Basically - I don't have a ton of money, but want a good musical speaker for everyday listening. Less Money = better, but again, if you feel the jump up in cash hits a "sweet spot" not available in a lower price range - I'll very much consider it.
Questions, Answers, Suggestions - welcome them all!
Jonathan
well, being canuck myself....
I can say that two alternatives "spring" to mind instantly in regards to a couple of drivers qand a couple of ideas...
Fonkens or similar:
Fonkens from planet10
and /or the Aperto:
Hemp Acoustics
I have experience with both, and both are excellent, particularly with small t-amps (I have a 41Hz Amp 6 Basic , and it drove and made music on both!).
As far as small TLs or Horns, I'll leave that to others, as I have no personal experience with either.
I can say that two alternatives "spring" to mind instantly in regards to a couple of drivers qand a couple of ideas...
Fonkens or similar:
Fonkens from planet10
and /or the Aperto:
Hemp Acoustics
I have experience with both, and both are excellent, particularly with small t-amps (I have a 41Hz Amp 6 Basic , and it drove and made music on both!).
As far as small TLs or Horns, I'll leave that to others, as I have no personal experience with either.
What size is your room?
Are they going to be close to the wall?
Do you have a dedicated sub?
I prefer Fostex drivers over TB. One plus about the Fostex is that there are lots of published designs, thanks to P10, scottmoose, and others. You said the smaller the better, but you mentioned needles, does that mean floorstanders are okay?
I think that with the large variety of designs for the fostex drivers they are your best bet. I like to try different designs and the FE127 has definately allowed me to do that.
Thanks,
Josh
Are they going to be close to the wall?
Do you have a dedicated sub?
I prefer Fostex drivers over TB. One plus about the Fostex is that there are lots of published designs, thanks to P10, scottmoose, and others. You said the smaller the better, but you mentioned needles, does that mean floorstanders are okay?
I think that with the large variety of designs for the fostex drivers they are your best bet. I like to try different designs and the FE127 has definately allowed me to do that.
Thanks,
Josh
The Floorstanding Fonken mkii and regular fonken floorstander look intriguing.
I appreciate the link on the Hemp design - I'm looking for a smoother look though.
Question - anyone have experience with the 2 different floorstanders listed on the Fonken page - Hows the lower end of these units? Would these or the tang band cyburg needles perform better with my little Si T-amp.
I was leaning a little more to the desktop bookshelf speaker design, Like the tekton or fritz designs on ebay. Any glowing reviews on certain small enclosures for these? Just use Fostex's reccomended BR enclosure?
Thanks again!
Jonathan
I appreciate the link on the Hemp design - I'm looking for a smoother look though.
Question - anyone have experience with the 2 different floorstanders listed on the Fonken page - Hows the lower end of these units? Would these or the tang band cyburg needles perform better with my little Si T-amp.
I was leaning a little more to the desktop bookshelf speaker design, Like the tekton or fritz designs on ebay. Any glowing reviews on certain small enclosures for these? Just use Fostex's reccomended BR enclosure?
Thanks again!
Jonathan
David - from Saskatoon. I guess we're rivals now?
Anyway - did a bunch of browsing last night on this, and also that German forum where I can't understand a thing but can look at pretty pictures.
People seem to like the needle here and there, find it has pretty good bass characteristics - Of course - the Stick looks like it'd be even better for that. All while staying very low cost for a DIY project.
I realize I'm all over the map here. sorry!
As for size of room - it's in my basement - probably about 14 ft wide, 32 ft long. with somewhat of a division as well. I don't need very loud levels - the wifey doesn't like loud.
Anyway - did a bunch of browsing last night on this, and also that German forum where I can't understand a thing but can look at pretty pictures.
People seem to like the needle here and there, find it has pretty good bass characteristics - Of course - the Stick looks like it'd be even better for that. All while staying very low cost for a DIY project.
I realize I'm all over the map here. sorry!
As for size of room - it's in my basement - probably about 14 ft wide, 32 ft long. with somewhat of a division as well. I don't need very loud levels - the wifey doesn't like loud.
jonnyrockets said:
Sounds like the beginnings of a man cave. Start insulating that room, then you can listen at a fairly decent level and not bother anyone.
I have a pair of Fonkens BTW, based on the Planet_10 design. They are going to be very tough to beat for a monitor size box, and make a great first build if you are just starting. Just be aware that there isn't going to be much bass below 50Hz, especially in a big room, but they will play quite loud if you feel like dancing.
Jeff
as both my kids were born in speedy Creek..
I think I can be classified as a "honourary Saskatchewanite"... er so the world shrinks....
The Fostex drivers are a good value, as are the Hemps as I have stated. The planet10 designs are excellent (again as previously stated), but make sure you buy the modded drivers from Dave.
And I guess you need to decide what is acceptable to your wife or not. chrisb's Milevas as seen at the Vancouver Island DIY fest are stunners. and not very big...
I think I can be classified as a "honourary Saskatchewanite"... er so the world shrinks....
The Fostex drivers are a good value, as are the Hemps as I have stated. The planet10 designs are excellent (again as previously stated), but make sure you buy the modded drivers from Dave.
And I guess you need to decide what is acceptable to your wife or not. chrisb's Milevas as seen at the Vancouver Island DIY fest are stunners. and not very big...
Attachments
My dad grew up in Saskatoon (played for the Hilltops before the Eskimos grabbed him) and i've spent some time there.
All 4 of the Fonkens on the Fonkens page are based on the same concept... the best sounding is the Fonken, next best the GR Fonken (nothing stopping you from mounting the driver on the side to give it an aspect like the eBay guys BR), then the FS II, then the FS. There is also a ZigmaHornet shaped Chang coming. No BR is going to be as well behaved as any of these. Also a report in Affordable Audio (Oct) that the FE126 works in the ZigmaHornet.
The eBay is a bit optimistic with his low end extension estimates. If you try to get that low the FE127 is going to get lumpy (and that he offers to sub in a pair of FE126 either points to he hasn't a clue, or is just being dishonets... a 126 just doesn't do much in a BR box. (nice to see he is offering plywood now after i poked him about that -- the premium seems a bit high thou)
A note on my drivers, Thes ewill be moving upmarket a bit as all drivers start to go out EnABLed... I do have a few pairs of FE127 & FE126 that had the old treatment with EnABL added (plus the basket stiffening mode -- thread coming up on that). This remaining old stock will go out at the old price (ie the EnABL + mods for free). Performance is 95-101% of the new model and an order of magnitude better than they were before EnABL. (ie price on these is about the same as Solen's price for stock units) or what it would cost to bring a pair across the border from Madisound.
dave
All 4 of the Fonkens on the Fonkens page are based on the same concept... the best sounding is the Fonken, next best the GR Fonken (nothing stopping you from mounting the driver on the side to give it an aspect like the eBay guys BR), then the FS II, then the FS. There is also a ZigmaHornet shaped Chang coming. No BR is going to be as well behaved as any of these. Also a report in Affordable Audio (Oct) that the FE126 works in the ZigmaHornet.
The eBay is a bit optimistic with his low end extension estimates. If you try to get that low the FE127 is going to get lumpy (and that he offers to sub in a pair of FE126 either points to he hasn't a clue, or is just being dishonets... a 126 just doesn't do much in a BR box. (nice to see he is offering plywood now after i poked him about that -- the premium seems a bit high thou)
A note on my drivers, Thes ewill be moving upmarket a bit as all drivers start to go out EnABLed... I do have a few pairs of FE127 & FE126 that had the old treatment with EnABL added (plus the basket stiffening mode -- thread coming up on that). This remaining old stock will go out at the old price (ie the EnABL + mods for free). Performance is 95-101% of the new model and an order of magnitude better than they were before EnABL. (ie price on these is about the same as Solen's price for stock units) or what it would cost to bring a pair across the border from Madisound.
dave
I believe that, Dave. The BR was built as a compromise for size and simplicity. I have little experience with diy at this point. I'm thinking putting them in sealed boxes with a side firing woofer similar to RAW's HTFR or a floorstanding variation of the miniFonken for a different room.
Anyways, I figured johnnyrockets could hear a setup similar in idea to what he's looking for. I've never heard a fullrange speaker before I bought the Css driver so I was going on faith of what others have said
Anyways, I figured johnnyrockets could hear a setup similar in idea to what he's looking for. I've never heard a fullrange speaker before I bought the Css driver so I was going on faith of what others have said
Cal Weldon said:
Hmm, that info seems a bit off... he played for three years, 50, 51 & 52 i believe... and his last year was just before they went on to win a grey cup. In 49 he was playing for the Hilltops. (i'll check all that thou)
Gene Kiniski (that famous wrestler) was the other tackle, Peter Lougheed (ex Premier) was a half-back, and Jackie Parker was just starting to roll.
dave
Theli said:Anyways, I figured johnnyrockets could hear a setup similar in idea to what he's looking for. I've never heard a fullrange speaker before I bought the Css driver so I was going on faith of what others have said
Indeed he should. Bart (Illusus) is also in Saskatoon, he might have one of his FRs set up.
dave
Jonny -
You've got a bunch of fostex fans in here, and all P10's designs look interesting. As a needle builder I thought I'd throw a shout out for the value in that design.
Personally, having built the needles, I'm now building a metronome for the fostex 167 (and I'm taking a long time to do it...). But I don't regret the needles, b/c I'm enjoying the building. It's the journey, not the destination... I expect the metrinome to be a step up from the needles in many different aspects. But the needles sound good enough that all my friends jaws dropped - so it was easy enough to convince one of them that they want to buy the needles for the same amound of $$$ that I have invested in them.
The needles are totally inexpensive, and a dead easy build. I cut all the wood for mine in one day, and spent about half a week with clamps and glue to build 'em up. If you are interested in running them from a computer as a source you can download the convolver file and then you won't even have to spend money on the notch filter components (tho that might make 'em harder to sell).
I'm running mine with a modded SI T-amp and they get loud enough that my wife complains, tho sometimes (not often) I wish for a bit more. The bass from them is quite sufficient, considering.
I get the impression that the P10 / fostex speakers are all probably nicer in just about every way. Price and build complexity make the needles a high value option. As someone who is about to head out to the garage to work on my metrinomes, I'm glad I built the needles and got a bit of experience working on that design first.
A tip: Consider plywood for the needles. Tho the MDF was easy to work, it was hard to paint. With a router (flush trim = the best!), I would totally have chosen ply. Without, maybe MDF is that much easier to work. Not sure.
Adam
You've got a bunch of fostex fans in here, and all P10's designs look interesting. As a needle builder I thought I'd throw a shout out for the value in that design.
Personally, having built the needles, I'm now building a metronome for the fostex 167 (and I'm taking a long time to do it...). But I don't regret the needles, b/c I'm enjoying the building. It's the journey, not the destination... I expect the metrinome to be a step up from the needles in many different aspects. But the needles sound good enough that all my friends jaws dropped - so it was easy enough to convince one of them that they want to buy the needles for the same amound of $$$ that I have invested in them.
The needles are totally inexpensive, and a dead easy build. I cut all the wood for mine in one day, and spent about half a week with clamps and glue to build 'em up. If you are interested in running them from a computer as a source you can download the convolver file and then you won't even have to spend money on the notch filter components (tho that might make 'em harder to sell).
I'm running mine with a modded SI T-amp and they get loud enough that my wife complains, tho sometimes (not often) I wish for a bit more. The bass from them is quite sufficient, considering.
I get the impression that the P10 / fostex speakers are all probably nicer in just about every way. Price and build complexity make the needles a high value option. As someone who is about to head out to the garage to work on my metrinomes, I'm glad I built the needles and got a bit of experience working on that design first.
A tip: Consider plywood for the needles. Tho the MDF was easy to work, it was hard to paint. With a router (flush trim = the best!), I would totally have chosen ply. Without, maybe MDF is that much easier to work. Not sure.
Adam
Wow - Amazing Responses! AS well as giving information, everyones responses are helping me decide on what I'd like to tackle.
Dave
Wow - an old saskatoonian.
You're very respected on the boards, I've been to your site many times to look at plans, and you talk a lot. (Which is a good thing. haha.)
I've been thinking of the Fonkens for awhile actually. . . Seen a few very nice builds with them. If I was to go with the GR Fonken, what changes would need to be made to mount the driver on the side? Any internal changes? Bracing moved to be perpendicular with driver? What about 'outlet / porting'?
And as for your drivers - If I decide to build the needles 1st (Which I'm leaning towards - then I'd still probably order a pair of your modded 127s to sit in hiding until the next build. The only thing that holds me off is the not as clean look. I know I know - Sound is the most important.)
Thanks for the opinion on the Ebay BR boxes.
Just out of curiosity - have you stuck a 127 in a needle design? How would I go about figuring out what the theoretical measurements / response would be?
Which driver will this be using? I'm looking forward to seeing it.
I hear ya - though it's starting to come back. The economy is great here, and there are some huge things on the horizon. THe Calgary / Saskatchewan football games are the most exciting when you're in Calgary - 1 side green, 1 side Red.
This might be a great option. Like you - I haven't really heard a fullrange driver (Outside of some car stereo stuff I used to dabble in.)
Thanks for the post adam. Which driver did you use in the needles? Did you go with the TangBand?
I am leaning towards Needles for my first time build . . . I'd just need a way to make them more sturdy - A removable bottom plate or something.
I'm loving the words said about the Fostex Drivers - especially Daves modded ones. I'm loving the design and look and simplicity / performance of the Cyburg Needles and Sticks.
A Cyburg Stick or Needle design - with a modded 127 from Dave . . . If only I could find one.
Anyone?
planet10 said:
Dave
Wow - an old saskatoonian.
You're very respected on the boards, I've been to your site many times to look at plans, and you talk a lot. (Which is a good thing. haha.)
I've been thinking of the Fonkens for awhile actually. . . Seen a few very nice builds with them. If I was to go with the GR Fonken, what changes would need to be made to mount the driver on the side? Any internal changes? Bracing moved to be perpendicular with driver? What about 'outlet / porting'?
And as for your drivers - If I decide to build the needles 1st (Which I'm leaning towards - then I'd still probably order a pair of your modded 127s to sit in hiding until the next build. The only thing that holds me off is the not as clean look. I know I know - Sound is the most important.)
Thanks for the opinion on the Ebay BR boxes.
Just out of curiosity - have you stuck a 127 in a needle design? How would I go about figuring out what the theoretical measurements / response would be?
planet10 said:
Which driver will this be using? I'm looking forward to seeing it.
davidallancole said:
I hear ya - though it's starting to come back. The economy is great here, and there are some huge things on the horizon. THe Calgary / Saskatchewan football games are the most exciting when you're in Calgary - 1 side green, 1 side Red.
Theli said:I'm in saskatoon!
I've got a pair of FR125S in a 9ltr BR running off an amp6-basic for my bedroom system. I could set it up with a Trends 10.1 in my living room to help you decide.
This might be a great option. Like you - I haven't really heard a fullrange driver (Outside of some car stereo stuff I used to dabble in.)
AdamThorne said:
Thanks for the post adam. Which driver did you use in the needles? Did you go with the TangBand?
I am leaning towards Needles for my first time build . . . I'd just need a way to make them more sturdy - A removable bottom plate or something.
I'm loving the words said about the Fostex Drivers - especially Daves modded ones. I'm loving the design and look and simplicity / performance of the Cyburg Needles and Sticks.
A Cyburg Stick or Needle design - with a modded 127 from Dave . . . If only I could find one.
Anyone?
Needles - I made mine with the TB W3-871s. I see a lot of people show up and say 'I'm making my needles with *whatever other driver*.' I'm never quite sure that's a good idea, but nobody ever comes back and says 'I made mine with a different driver and it sucked!', so maybe that's fine. I am pleased to have damped and reinforced the speaker basket on mine, though it made the presentation a bit more dark. The modded 871 with a super tweeter I bet would be pretty sweet. And I've heard that taking a load off the driver with a sub helps a bunch as well. Ah, but now we're leaving the realm of simple designs.
I would have liked to have made the Stick, but the recommended driver doesn't seem to be available in the states. There is a bamboo fiber driver that some say will work, but the price on that one jumps up to something like $40, and by the time you're paying that much I'm thinking more about the fostex drivers. It would be interesting to see a driver comparo between the 4" TB bamboo and a comparable Fostex. I also like Cyburg's design 'das Viech' as far as design goals, form factor, and price point, but again with the driver availability.
I would have liked to have made the Stick, but the recommended driver doesn't seem to be available in the states. There is a bamboo fiber driver that some say will work, but the price on that one jumps up to something like $40, and by the time you're paying that much I'm thinking more about the fostex drivers. It would be interesting to see a driver comparo between the 4" TB bamboo and a comparable Fostex. I also like Cyburg's design 'das Viech' as far as design goals, form factor, and price point, but again with the driver availability.
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