hello,
i have purchased a pair of fe 208 es and i
seek advices for the enclosure
(i am not skilled in woodworking but patient ...;-)
while reading this forum i sew three kind of enclusure
1 BLH :
fostex recommended
jericho
2 MLTL as studied by MJK
3 BIB
first question are there other interesting possibility?
then, what is the best enclosure for
a solid state amplifier in
a room 5 m x 6 m ?
regards,
dondiba
i have purchased a pair of fe 208 es and i
seek advices for the enclosure
(i am not skilled in woodworking but patient ...;-)
while reading this forum i sew three kind of enclusure
1 BLH :
fostex recommended
jericho
2 MLTL as studied by MJK
3 BIB
first question are there other interesting possibility?
then, what is the best enclosure for
a solid state amplifier in
a room 5 m x 6 m ?
regards,
dondiba
In a room of that size, I'd be inclined for Sachiko, DallasII or a BIB (no particular order there).
The (excellent) MLTL Martin designed was for the defunct FE208Sigma, not the current FE208ESigma, which has a much higher Vas and a more powerful motor. It would need heavy correction to work properly with the ESigma, and MLTLs are best in the nearfield.
The Jericho is a fine cabinet, but if you wanted a horn of that type, the DallasII is the more refined design. DallasII is one of the most advanced horns around, and should sound as clean as you can get from a forward firing BLH, though it's not the easiest box in the world to make. Sachiko isn't as refined as Dallas, but is easier to build, & will probably sound more dynamic (double horns tend to)
The BIB will go lower than both, and have an eerie effortlessness to their presentation, though they also have more ripple as it's the simplest of all the cabinets.
The (excellent) MLTL Martin designed was for the defunct FE208Sigma, not the current FE208ESigma, which has a much higher Vas and a more powerful motor. It would need heavy correction to work properly with the ESigma, and MLTLs are best in the nearfield.
The Jericho is a fine cabinet, but if you wanted a horn of that type, the DallasII is the more refined design. DallasII is one of the most advanced horns around, and should sound as clean as you can get from a forward firing BLH, though it's not the easiest box in the world to make. Sachiko isn't as refined as Dallas, but is easier to build, & will probably sound more dynamic (double horns tend to)
The BIB will go lower than both, and have an eerie effortlessness to their presentation, though they also have more ripple as it's the simplest of all the cabinets.
I wish i had the time to build back horns so i can compare and find out which i prefer. For now, the BIB is all i have as a reference (besides the older BK161 which wasnt too good IMO). But i am very curious about double horns! Call me a curious horny guy.
Other than sketching all day long at the museum, i must also find a way to make speaker building part of my retirement plans... which is 25 years away.
The 208es is a keeper and should have a proper box to go along with it. Good luck with your search! Whichever you choose will likely be just a different form of excellent.
Peace,
Godzilla
PS. If the speakers will be going into corners i would vote for the simpler to build BIB.
Other than sketching all day long at the museum, i must also find a way to make speaker building part of my retirement plans... which is 25 years away.
The 208es is a keeper and should have a proper box to go along with it. Good luck with your search! Whichever you choose will likely be just a different form of excellent.
Peace,
Godzilla
PS. If the speakers will be going into corners i would vote for the simpler to build BIB.
Some thoughts...
having built the Fostex Rx BLH for the FE166es-r, I can tell you that it aint a quick maneuver. It took a long, loooong time to do right, so I took my time, sanded out every little piece by hand, lovingly assembled it was weeks. Fantastic speaker, and a fantastic amount of time into it.
I just took delivery on a pair of 208's a couple hours ago. Damn impressive, 10 pound slabs of Japanese R&D. Very serious stuff these are. I am going to build the BIB's because they are easy as pie, and the return on the investment is outrageous. The Fostex BLH will require 3 4X8 blanks each unit, and the BIB's require only 2 blanks for both units, so you save FOUR blanks of primo plywood, just choosing the BIB. The BIB's can be ripped up, squared off and glued up in ONE hour, the BLH's you are looking at some regular nightly input on the order of weeks. The cuts, everything has to be perfect.
The BIB loads the vertical mode, where there are no obstructions, 'not alot of furniture on the ceiling,' as TC said. Second, the lower register presentation of a BIB far as I can tell is near about indistinguishable from good open baffle sound. So you get horn dynamics, with open baffle-ish lower end thrown in for free. The line gain below what, 300Hz on this thing should be on the order of ~10db so now you have a wideband horn/pipe with easy +100db SPL which turns flea amps into monsters, sweet sounding thangs with the same crunch as those nasty arc welders so prized on Audio Gone.
Ripple depends on system, room, etc. It hasnt bothered me thus far, and I can hear it. Also, most of these anomalies are easily cured by simply downloading www.itunes.com and starting ripping your CD collection into your hard drive, the improvement in sound using streamed audio with a digital EQ on your lap is beyond whatever else anyone can come up with in terms of correction circuits, and other life-robbing ceramic sandstorms, cupric whirlpools, and metallic miasmae, that you could care to mention, been there, done that.
Now you have an ULTRA simple, otherworldly sounding system of ++100db in the money zone, with Clair Brothers-level JBL multi-way class horn dynamics, all in your home, without the need to attend prog concerts in Madison Square Garden, speaking as someone who also has worked for Clair Brothers, IN Madison Square Garden, in a former lifetime, and built BIB's in this one.
Just the rantings of a frustrated "chippie" who has seen life both ways. Hope this helps abit.
These banana monsters are staring at me as I write, and I want to get going on my 208 BIB's.
having built the Fostex Rx BLH for the FE166es-r, I can tell you that it aint a quick maneuver. It took a long, loooong time to do right, so I took my time, sanded out every little piece by hand, lovingly assembled it was weeks. Fantastic speaker, and a fantastic amount of time into it.
I just took delivery on a pair of 208's a couple hours ago. Damn impressive, 10 pound slabs of Japanese R&D. Very serious stuff these are. I am going to build the BIB's because they are easy as pie, and the return on the investment is outrageous. The Fostex BLH will require 3 4X8 blanks each unit, and the BIB's require only 2 blanks for both units, so you save FOUR blanks of primo plywood, just choosing the BIB. The BIB's can be ripped up, squared off and glued up in ONE hour, the BLH's you are looking at some regular nightly input on the order of weeks. The cuts, everything has to be perfect.
The BIB loads the vertical mode, where there are no obstructions, 'not alot of furniture on the ceiling,' as TC said. Second, the lower register presentation of a BIB far as I can tell is near about indistinguishable from good open baffle sound. So you get horn dynamics, with open baffle-ish lower end thrown in for free. The line gain below what, 300Hz on this thing should be on the order of ~10db so now you have a wideband horn/pipe with easy +100db SPL which turns flea amps into monsters, sweet sounding thangs with the same crunch as those nasty arc welders so prized on Audio Gone.
Ripple depends on system, room, etc. It hasnt bothered me thus far, and I can hear it. Also, most of these anomalies are easily cured by simply downloading www.itunes.com and starting ripping your CD collection into your hard drive, the improvement in sound using streamed audio with a digital EQ on your lap is beyond whatever else anyone can come up with in terms of correction circuits, and other life-robbing ceramic sandstorms, cupric whirlpools, and metallic miasmae, that you could care to mention, been there, done that.
Now you have an ULTRA simple, otherworldly sounding system of ++100db in the money zone, with Clair Brothers-level JBL multi-way class horn dynamics, all in your home, without the need to attend prog concerts in Madison Square Garden, speaking as someone who also has worked for Clair Brothers, IN Madison Square Garden, in a former lifetime, and built BIB's in this one.
Just the rantings of a frustrated "chippie" who has seen life both ways. Hope this helps abit.
These banana monsters are staring at me as I write, and I want to get going on my 208 BIB's.
Working on the Austin206/208, when time permits. However it will need either internal or external vertical stringers.
First pass shows to 37 Hz.( i am conservitave) wall/floor loaded.
I have included thermal loss in the Austin programming. Its interesting, i see very little loss in the TL action and a curve of greater loss as the horn action frequency rises. It appears as the frequency increases the shorter wavelength occurs earlier in the path. Longer wavelengths occupy the entire path length and are really just produced at the mouth.This would be the transition from TL to horn.
Its an interesting study.
ron
(old industral saying " there comes the time in the life of any project when you shoot the design engineer and begin production")
First pass shows to 37 Hz.( i am conservitave) wall/floor loaded.
I have included thermal loss in the Austin programming. Its interesting, i see very little loss in the TL action and a curve of greater loss as the horn action frequency rises. It appears as the frequency increases the shorter wavelength occurs earlier in the path. Longer wavelengths occupy the entire path length and are really just produced at the mouth.This would be the transition from TL to horn.
Its an interesting study.
ron
(old industral saying " there comes the time in the life of any project when you shoot the design engineer and begin production")
thanks, Greg,
the words are passionately written. The BIB's simply deliver the goods. Dr Chang and I agree that 'music is better than mucus'
and this schtick provides valuable detachement from the vagaries of our line of work... I have not found anything better than DIY audio to escape.
My first "real" summer job was working with a Clair Bros. Sound road crew, on the 1978 summer tour of an obscure English progressive rock band known collectively as, "Yes." The dynamic capabilities of the flown, radial array of 4-way JBL horn system with huge sectoral horn midrangers, parked above the rotating stage at center ice, was just over the top, a religio-sonic experience, let there be no dout. 80,000 watts of Crown amplification provided the horsepower. The house lights went out with the symphonic slam of "Let There Be Light," the opening crescendo from "Close Encounters of the Third Kind." .Indeed. GM would understand my rant...which I have shared with him, a long time ago.... it is with this nostalgic "direction" that the 208BIB's MUST be realized. And the business end of 'em arrived today.
the words are passionately written. The BIB's simply deliver the goods. Dr Chang and I agree that 'music is better than mucus'
and this schtick provides valuable detachement from the vagaries of our line of work... I have not found anything better than DIY audio to escape.My first "real" summer job was working with a Clair Bros. Sound road crew, on the 1978 summer tour of an obscure English progressive rock band known collectively as, "Yes." The dynamic capabilities of the flown, radial array of 4-way JBL horn system with huge sectoral horn midrangers, parked above the rotating stage at center ice, was just over the top, a religio-sonic experience, let there be no dout. 80,000 watts of Crown amplification provided the horsepower. The house lights went out with the symphonic slam of "Let There Be Light," the opening crescendo from "Close Encounters of the Third Kind." .Indeed. GM would understand my rant...which I have shared with him, a long time ago.... it is with this nostalgic "direction" that the 208BIB's MUST be realized. And the business end of 'em arrived today.
Yes. i keep seeing the thermal loss as an increasing load effect, as the loss increases the efficency decreases. Its a constant curve.
Resistance to movement increases losses , as the energy is converted to heat. As the heat increases there is a further loss due to the interaction of the mass expansion.Simply stated as a unit heats up there is a loss in efficency and the actual values of a transducer changes to a greater degree than most wouild think.
I am attempting to include this factor in my programing.
ron
Resistance to movement increases losses , as the energy is converted to heat. As the heat increases there is a further loss due to the interaction of the mass expansion.Simply stated as a unit heats up there is a loss in efficency and the actual values of a transducer changes to a greater degree than most wouild think.
I am attempting to include this factor in my programing.
ron
dmason said:
Indeed! I don't do prose well like you, but we definitely have shared 'direction', though mine began at the Fabulous Fox theater in '52 where I first experienced multi-channel cinema sound on what was then a grand scale that would become my 'guiding light' for gaging a sound system's worthiness. While the pipe horns I built were a bit different than BIBs, their sheer volumetric efficiency (big) are similar enough that in a typical HIFI app they should mimic a ~live event in the way one can only get from an efficient system.
ronc said:
Hmm, I believe it's an exponential one. Anyway, even with modest bass/mid-bass SPL I've heard an audible flattening (Qes/Qts rising), so it doesn't take a lot of VC heating for it to be audible and a good reason for using an HE system. WRT horn loading, 50% eff. is the theoretical limit with the balance lost in thermal dissipation, so you definitely reach a point of diminishing returns rather quickly when you start increasing the compression ratio.
fe208 es enclosure
hello,
ronc wrote :
(old industral saying " there comes the time in the life of any project when you shoot the design engineer and begin production")
-------------
please not yet, i need to learn a bit more before ! ;-)
up to now, the BIB is ahead, the only problem mentioned is "ripple"
my poor english would make me translate "resonnance"? or in other word "box noise?"
i am not convinced to get better music playing by computer than by a cd player, though it could be fun to try
maybe these ripple could be cured by braces and (minimum) damping stuff ?
thank you for your help
dondiba
hello,
ronc wrote :
(old industral saying " there comes the time in the life of any project when you shoot the design engineer and begin production")
-------------
please not yet, i need to learn a bit more before ! ;-)
up to now, the BIB is ahead, the only problem mentioned is "ripple"
my poor english would make me translate "resonnance"? or in other word "box noise?"
i am not convinced to get better music playing by computer than by a cd player, though it could be fun to try
maybe these ripple could be cured by braces and (minimum) damping stuff ?
thank you for your help
dondiba
GM said:
Neither is mine Greg. That's three of us with a similar take though. In my case it was seeing Page & Plant in the early '90s when they got back together to do No Quarter & toured briefly that kicked me into the whole audio-thing, and wanting to get that live presentation that inefficient speakers simply can't provide.
You're killing me Dan -I need to hear what you make of these Sigmas in their full-size pipe-horn. From current reports, things are good, but IIRC, you're going to EQ them flat rather than add a tweeter, right? You're not kidding about using a computer-based source either. My mate Ed (Vitalstates) runs an unmodified Squeezebox; with FLACs, it beats any digital source under UK £1,000 that I've heard to date. With a few tweaks, I can't see much better from 16/44.1 anyway.
Hmm. I was going to use 166s for the new pair of pipe-horns I've been thinking of for the new year. I might just have to bust the bank and get the 208ESigmas. You can't take it with you, right? I didn't use my 167s in this load mainly because the cabinet was too large to fit the room (not the decor -actually physically fit the room without a frenzied assault on the walls with sledgehammer and battleaxe). CSA of a ~ideal BIB for my units as measured by Dave would be a slightly excessive 144.2in^2. But (I love this) using the Fostex data anway, line CSA for a 208ESigma BIB is just 106.54in^2. And that I can squeeze into the available space, without turning myself into a huscarl (just).
The ripple in the response of a BIB is caused by the acoustic impedence mis-match at the terminus, which is much smaller than it needs to be for full horn action in the bass (most domestic horns have the same problem). This causes a supersonic shockwave (in other words, a standing wave) to be reflected back along the line, where it modulates the output of the driver, and the BIB doesn't have a filter chamber to help out, unlike most of those.
However, in practice it's nothing like as bad as you'd expect. It's not QB3 reflex alignment flat (who cares? Our hearing isn't flat), but it's much, much better than it simulates. Proper damping, and the 180 degree bend at the bottom help prevent a fair amount of these reflections getting back to the driver, and when they are positioned against a rear wall or a corner, as they are designed to be, the problem is greatly reduced anyway, because the apparant size of the mouth is massively increased by these room boundaries. More advanced designs are smoother, but there are some things a simple pipe-horn like the BIB gives that even they can't do. Like astonishing bass extension. The first question eveyone asks when they hear a pair is 'where are you hiding the sub?' They're not perfect, but they're one of the most musical speakers you'll hear.
However, in practice it's nothing like as bad as you'd expect. It's not QB3 reflex alignment flat (who cares? Our hearing isn't flat), but it's much, much better than it simulates. Proper damping, and the 180 degree bend at the bottom help prevent a fair amount of these reflections getting back to the driver, and when they are positioned against a rear wall or a corner, as they are designed to be, the problem is greatly reduced anyway, because the apparant size of the mouth is massively increased by these room boundaries. More advanced designs are smoother, but there are some things a simple pipe-horn like the BIB gives that even they can't do. Like astonishing bass extension. The first question eveyone asks when they hear a pair is 'where are you hiding the sub?' They're not perfect, but they're one of the most musical speakers you'll hear.
Scott,
I have a pretty good idea that after a thorough break in the 208's treble will satisfy me, and DEQ can work magic on ANY situation; digitally rendered +24db is a happy thing. Second, my ears, due to tinnitus in both, and hyperacuisis in the left, dont want much to do with anything over about 9KHz, depending on the recording, and especially the quality of the recording. I want to preserve as much of the point source thang as I can, and how it sounds to me is all that matters. The biggest hurdle [allowing them into the house] wasnt an issue at all. Lesson: it seems chix dig these things guys...my theory is that as long as they are not wide, they are not complaining about ...high. The BIB's look more like contemporary art; tall, dark and handsome, art. BIB's get through the door!!
I have found that a good USB DAC and streaming hard disc audio absolutely KILLS even the best CD players simply because it no longer sounds digital. Even the best players sound like CD players. Then you can find free plug ins from places like www.electronicmusician.com and run the output thru these and use 1/2 octave EQ, PEQ, even tube emulators to add even order distortions to the output, and now you have digitally rendered tube preamplification, for your digital amplifier. It sounds awfully good these days.
Live NOW. Get the drivers you wish. The morgues always see very fit and healthy corpses. You have a much higher likelihood of getting run over by a drunk Chargers fan in a yellow SUV with chrome wheels, around here, than you do of making it to 90, concerned about outliving any savings, and regretting all the things you didnt do in the name of 'conservatism.' I say order the drivers now, and another case of that stuff from the mainland your friend has you on and dont "worry" about it later. My uncle drank and gambled, and womanized himself to death at the tragic, young age of 107. His secret: he didnt give two schitz about anything as long has he had himself covered. Add good tunes to that and you have a life quality missed by all the people chasing their personal rainbows, usually all the things you cannot take with you.
I have a pretty good idea that after a thorough break in the 208's treble will satisfy me, and DEQ can work magic on ANY situation; digitally rendered +24db is a happy thing. Second, my ears, due to tinnitus in both, and hyperacuisis in the left, dont want much to do with anything over about 9KHz, depending on the recording, and especially the quality of the recording. I want to preserve as much of the point source thang as I can, and how it sounds to me is all that matters. The biggest hurdle [allowing them into the house] wasnt an issue at all. Lesson: it seems chix dig these things guys...my theory is that as long as they are not wide, they are not complaining about ...high. The BIB's look more like contemporary art; tall, dark and handsome, art. BIB's get through the door!!
I have found that a good USB DAC and streaming hard disc audio absolutely KILLS even the best CD players simply because it no longer sounds digital. Even the best players sound like CD players. Then you can find free plug ins from places like www.electronicmusician.com and run the output thru these and use 1/2 octave EQ, PEQ, even tube emulators to add even order distortions to the output, and now you have digitally rendered tube preamplification, for your digital amplifier. It sounds awfully good these days.
Live NOW. Get the drivers you wish. The morgues always see very fit and healthy corpses. You have a much higher likelihood of getting run over by a drunk Chargers fan in a yellow SUV with chrome wheels, around here, than you do of making it to 90, concerned about outliving any savings, and regretting all the things you didnt do in the name of 'conservatism.' I say order the drivers now, and another case of that stuff from the mainland your friend has you on and dont "worry" about it later. My uncle drank and gambled, and womanized himself to death at the tragic, young age of 107. His secret: he didnt give two schitz about anything as long has he had himself covered. Add good tunes to that and you have a life quality missed by all the people chasing their personal rainbows, usually all the things you cannot take with you.
Sorry this might be off topic but I was one of the lucky ones to see Led Zep at MSG in '77. I had 4th row center and I will never forget the experience. There were a bunch of idiots in the crowd throwing fireworks on stage and Page almost cancelled the concert. Scott, are you going to go the Led Zep reunion with Bonzo's son as the drummer?
Heck yes! You think I'd miss that?!? My wallet took a bit of a beating; some things are worth it.
Dan, you speak volumes. We have a similar take on life I think.
The gathering of large amounts of money & sitting on it is not exactly one of my prime motivators. I'll leave that to the bosses of Enron & BCCI (along with the corruption) & get on with enjoying life.
Dan, you speak volumes. We have a similar take on life I think.
The gathering of large amounts of money & sitting on it is not exactly one of my prime motivators. I'll leave that to the bosses of Enron & BCCI (along with the corruption) & get on with enjoying life.Scottmoose, you mention not being able to fit the fe167e BIB in you room. Can you explain the limiting factor, I am planning on building a fe167 BIB and my room is small. If there is a reason it would not fit knowing about it now is better then after drivers are bought and enclosures are built.
Thanks
Ed Robinson
Thanks
Ed Robinson
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.