I made a post earlier asking about triple crossover systems, however, being a complete novice to speaker building, full range systems was suggested as a more realistic option for me.
What I would like to have is two separate speaker units (stereo sound).
I would like the speakers to be able to put out decent power and also be responsive in the lower frequencies, and higher as well. That was the reason I originally opted for the triple crossover layout.
I have been told, however, that I am able to still have both a subwoofer and mid range speaker without needing a complicated crossover.
I'm not sure, how I can do this though, because a crossover is designed to prevent distortion between multiple channels, and surely not using one would result in my system having distortion?
Secondly, in terms of amplification, should I even bother going down the 'do it myself' route? or is it too complicated to build one.
If I do, is a standalone, third unit recommended, or should I build the amplifier into one of the speaker units.
Also, can you give me an idea of the components that I will need, these are the ones that I know of so far:
Speaker cones (Mid range and possibly sub/tweet)
Input Jack
Amplifier
I also forgot to mention, that anything that I make can only use a maximum of 12 volts. i.e. if I make an amplifier, it must run off a 12 volt transformer or less. Would this be a problem?
The speakers can use more than 12 volts, however, that would have to be from a non DIY amp.
For speaker designs, what should I take into consideration? I have looked through many pictures, and have been surprised to see that some people place their cones facing backwards, others make blast channels etc.
Thanks for any replies.
What I would like to have is two separate speaker units (stereo sound).
I would like the speakers to be able to put out decent power and also be responsive in the lower frequencies, and higher as well. That was the reason I originally opted for the triple crossover layout.
I have been told, however, that I am able to still have both a subwoofer and mid range speaker without needing a complicated crossover.
I'm not sure, how I can do this though, because a crossover is designed to prevent distortion between multiple channels, and surely not using one would result in my system having distortion?
Secondly, in terms of amplification, should I even bother going down the 'do it myself' route? or is it too complicated to build one.
If I do, is a standalone, third unit recommended, or should I build the amplifier into one of the speaker units.
Also, can you give me an idea of the components that I will need, these are the ones that I know of so far:
Speaker cones (Mid range and possibly sub/tweet)
Input Jack
Amplifier
I also forgot to mention, that anything that I make can only use a maximum of 12 volts. i.e. if I make an amplifier, it must run off a 12 volt transformer or less. Would this be a problem?
The speakers can use more than 12 volts, however, that would have to be from a non DIY amp.
For speaker designs, what should I take into consideration? I have looked through many pictures, and have been surprised to see that some people place their cones facing backwards, others make blast channels etc.
Thanks for any replies.
Well certainly you can do it yourself. If it is your first time it is probably helpful to keep your goals small and get the basics down.
When it comes to doing it yourself, there are a lot of things you have to be able to deal with, such as:
1. Speaker impedance and being able to compute total impedance
2. Understanding crossovers, how they work, and some math for that
3. General audio theory
4. Electrical terms
5. Finding parts in small quantities <-- Hard sometimes!
6. Constructing things yourself
7. Testing your designs
I bet other people have excellent suggestions also.
When I started I used a Radio Shack speaker crossover design guide, then moved to Vance Dickason's The Loud Speaker Design Cookbook for advanced topics.
You might just get started perhaps with a 2-way -12dB/octave crossover design. You can search the internet for "Butterworth" or "2 way crossover" designs to find out what you need.
Since you're not in the USA, not sure where you can get parts, but usually you will have to be creative to get the values you need.
If you have only +12V DC you can make your own low-end, lower power amps using amplifier ICs, but not sure if that's your goal. StMicro and National Semiconductor have some nice ones, along with design example circuits. They work!
Let me know if I can help!
When it comes to doing it yourself, there are a lot of things you have to be able to deal with, such as:
1. Speaker impedance and being able to compute total impedance
2. Understanding crossovers, how they work, and some math for that
3. General audio theory
4. Electrical terms
5. Finding parts in small quantities <-- Hard sometimes!
6. Constructing things yourself
7. Testing your designs
I bet other people have excellent suggestions also.
When I started I used a Radio Shack speaker crossover design guide, then moved to Vance Dickason's The Loud Speaker Design Cookbook for advanced topics.
You might just get started perhaps with a 2-way -12dB/octave crossover design. You can search the internet for "Butterworth" or "2 way crossover" designs to find out what you need.
Since you're not in the USA, not sure where you can get parts, but usually you will have to be creative to get the values you need.
If you have only +12V DC you can make your own low-end, lower power amps using amplifier ICs, but not sure if that's your goal. StMicro and National Semiconductor have some nice ones, along with design example circuits. They work!
Let me know if I can help!
I think I've mentioned this before -forget volts. They're fairly irrelevant. I did a bit of theory on my posts on your original thread -have another read if it'd help.
OK, first up -buy either a T-amp, or scoure the classified ads for a cheap integrated amplifier you can plug your source (iPod / whatever) into. Anything will do to be honest. Don't try building your own -it'd cost more, and it's too complicated for a first project at your stage. One thing at a time. The amp just plugs into the mains. I can't see anybody complaining about that, you're being judged on the speakers, not what's powering them.
Subs have their own crossovers -forget them for the moment, forget tweeters, just concentrate on the FR units. Abandon your dream of having a hyper-cheap multiway system that could double as a club PA, at least for the moment. Make life easy for yourself, OK? Otherwise, you're going to come to grief, as (and this isn't meaning to put you down: we all had to start somewhere) you don't know even the basics yet, so you need to follow ye olde saying and Keep It Simple.
Next -buy a couple of Monacor SPH60X drivers. www.spectrumaudio.de have them. The site's in German, but it's all pretty obvious. Wolfgan, who runs the company, is a lovely bloke & speaks excellent English too. Total cost will be about £50 for the pair. Those are good 5 1/2in drivers that have a nice solid bottom end to them and a clean midrange. Great for the price.
So much for the drivers. You'll need a 2 pairs of binding posts & some wire -cheap speaker wire from Maplin will be fine. 79p per metre is about the most you want to spend. Some damping material will be needed too -how much depends on the box. Now, how big a box can you take? I ask this in all seriousness, because you might not realise just what 'any size' means to some of us. For example, most of the boxes I design for drivers of this size are at least 5 foot tall. What would really suit your requirements would be a BIB pipe-horn which is simple to build, has great artistry & great sound for the money. But will you be able to build a couple of boxes 64in tall x 7in wide x 14in deep for your project? We can do smaller of course, but it's up to you. The size box you fancy will, of course, determine how much material you'll need to buy to build the things. MDF from B&Q goes for about £13 for an 8'x4' sheet, so it's not going to break the bank, however big you go.
OK, first up -buy either a T-amp, or scoure the classified ads for a cheap integrated amplifier you can plug your source (iPod / whatever) into. Anything will do to be honest. Don't try building your own -it'd cost more, and it's too complicated for a first project at your stage. One thing at a time. The amp just plugs into the mains. I can't see anybody complaining about that, you're being judged on the speakers, not what's powering them.
Subs have their own crossovers -forget them for the moment, forget tweeters, just concentrate on the FR units. Abandon your dream of having a hyper-cheap multiway system that could double as a club PA, at least for the moment. Make life easy for yourself, OK? Otherwise, you're going to come to grief, as (and this isn't meaning to put you down: we all had to start somewhere) you don't know even the basics yet, so you need to follow ye olde saying and Keep It Simple.
Next -buy a couple of Monacor SPH60X drivers. www.spectrumaudio.de have them. The site's in German, but it's all pretty obvious. Wolfgan, who runs the company, is a lovely bloke & speaks excellent English too. Total cost will be about £50 for the pair. Those are good 5 1/2in drivers that have a nice solid bottom end to them and a clean midrange. Great for the price.
So much for the drivers. You'll need a 2 pairs of binding posts & some wire -cheap speaker wire from Maplin will be fine. 79p per metre is about the most you want to spend. Some damping material will be needed too -how much depends on the box. Now, how big a box can you take? I ask this in all seriousness, because you might not realise just what 'any size' means to some of us. For example, most of the boxes I design for drivers of this size are at least 5 foot tall. What would really suit your requirements would be a BIB pipe-horn which is simple to build, has great artistry & great sound for the money. But will you be able to build a couple of boxes 64in tall x 7in wide x 14in deep for your project? We can do smaller of course, but it's up to you. The size box you fancy will, of course, determine how much material you'll need to buy to build the things. MDF from B&Q goes for about £13 for an 8'x4' sheet, so it's not going to break the bank, however big you go.
Thank you very much for all the help you have been giving me.
I looked up T amps, and came across the sonic impact t amp - is this one any good, or is it too underpowered?
So here is a list of parts that I need to buy:
2 Monacor SPH 60X drivers
2 pairs of binding posts
Some Wire
Wood
Bass reflex tube
Dampening (foam, wool etc.)
Rubber Feet
Amplifier
So the circuit will quite simply be this?
Amp -> Amplifier Outputs -> Wire -> Speaker Inputs(Binding Posts) -> Wire -> Monacor Drivers.
I looked up T amps, and came across the sonic impact t amp - is this one any good, or is it too underpowered?
So here is a list of parts that I need to buy:
2 Monacor SPH 60X drivers
2 pairs of binding posts
Some Wire
Wood
Bass reflex tube
Dampening (foam, wool etc.)
Rubber Feet
Amplifier
So the circuit will quite simply be this?
Amp -> Amplifier Outputs -> Wire -> Speaker Inputs(Binding Posts) -> Wire -> Monacor Drivers.
Have a look at this:
http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYTQ8.html
This was one of our late friend Terry Cain's projects & perfect for your requirements, if you can cope with the size: 70in tall, 7in wide, 14in deep. The Monacor drivers are a straight replacement for the 1354 units Terry used (which aren't available anymore) -in fact, they're better. This isn't a reflex cabinet -it's a horn. Yup, one of the most exotic of all loudspeaker cabinet types. And a simple to build, 6 foot tall horn, with a mouth firing upwards at that. Creative enough?
BTW -they sound astonishing. No-one ever believes just how much bass is coming from a single, fairly small driver. The BIB ('Bigger Is Better' -TC's phrase) is a remarkable box & makes a fine first project. I've built quite a few. Some people, once they hear them, never go back to anything else. Not perfect, but they're the cheapest & easiest high end speaker in the world.
http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYTQ8.html
This was one of our late friend Terry Cain's projects & perfect for your requirements, if you can cope with the size: 70in tall, 7in wide, 14in deep. The Monacor drivers are a straight replacement for the 1354 units Terry used (which aren't available anymore) -in fact, they're better. This isn't a reflex cabinet -it's a horn. Yup, one of the most exotic of all loudspeaker cabinet types. And a simple to build, 6 foot tall horn, with a mouth firing upwards at that. Creative enough?
BTW -they sound astonishing. No-one ever believes just how much bass is coming from a single, fairly small driver. The BIB ('Bigger Is Better' -TC's phrase) is a remarkable box & makes a fine first project. I've built quite a few. Some people, once they hear them, never go back to anything else. Not perfect, but they're the cheapest & easiest high end speaker in the world.
Scottmoose said:
And for not quite as big, with a bit more finese (at the sacrifice of a bit on the bottom), there is probably a Spawn that will do the trick too (i expect if this Monacor doesn't shoehorn into one of the existing Spawn, there will be the specs for a new Chang family member in my mail after i get back from swap & shop tomorrow AM.
dave
PS: follow the frugal-horn link below.
morfius said:
Not with a good efficient full-range. The little plastic cheap Sonic Impact, has a built in rool-off that means for serious use you have to mod it up. Better to just start with something like the Sonic Impact SuperT -- tweaked from the factory and inspired by hot rodders of the little plastic one. There is a lot of activity in this sector -- I got a Treands TA10.1, there are amps from 41 Hz & Kingrex, and many others -- seems a new one is popping up everytime you look the other way.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
Thank you very much for the link, it has really amazed me what you can do with such a little speaker if you construct the housing correctly.Scottmoose said:Have a look at this:
http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYTQ8.html
This was one of our late friend Terry Cain's projects & perfect for your requirements, if you can cope with the size: 70in tall, 7in wide, 14in deep. The Monacor drivers are a straight replacement for the 1354 units Terry used (which aren't available anymore) -in fact, they're better. This isn't a reflex cabinet -it's a horn. Yup, one of the most exotic of all loudspeaker cabinet types. And a simple to build, 6 foot tall horn, with a mouth firing upwards at that. Creative enough?
BTW -they sound astonishing. No-one ever believes just how much bass is coming from a single, fairly small driver. The BIB ('Bigger Is Better' -TC's phrase) is a remarkable box & makes a fine first project. I've built quite a few. Some people, once they hear them, never go back to anything else. Not perfect, but they're the cheapest & easiest high end speaker in the world.
In terms of dampening, how much/where in the horn should it be placed, or should there be none?
Thanks for the link, those designs look very good and appealing.planet10 said:
Does the treands have enough power for the two monacors which will peak together at 120W?planet10 said:
Forget watts. Do a bit of searching abour driver efficiency, and get a handle on how Decibels work. The MOST important thing when asking "how loud" is driver efficiency.
I have felt the bass in my chest from a one watt amplifier driving 103 dB/W speakers. Those could be listened to at normal levels directly connected to the headphones socket on an MP3 player powered from a single AAA battery. no amplifier. Once you start getting over about 97dB/W the price starts increasing exponentially.
Most domestic consumer three way speakers are 85 dB/w, they need ten times the amplifier power to make the same volume as 95 dB/W speakers. And yes, 95 dB/W speakers are pretty awesome on a 50 watt amp.
I have felt the bass in my chest from a one watt amplifier driving 103 dB/W speakers. Those could be listened to at normal levels directly connected to the headphones socket on an MP3 player powered from a single AAA battery. no amplifier. Once you start getting over about 97dB/W the price starts increasing exponentially.
Most domestic consumer three way speakers are 85 dB/w, they need ten times the amplifier power to make the same volume as 95 dB/W speakers. And yes, 95 dB/W speakers are pretty awesome on a 50 watt amp.
Re watts: forget them, as Mike said (& I've mentioned a couple of times). I know it's easy to get fixated on them, but the figures are only maximum power handling, i.e. how much power the driver will theoretically take before it self-destructs. In reality, you'd never, ever get close to putting even a tenth of that figure into them in the real world. The Trend should handle the Monacors fine, even though they're not the most sensitive FR units on the planet. Which reminds me, I need to buy one myself.
Yes, it's impressive what you can do with a single unit, if you're willing to go larger than is common nowadays. For the BIB, you need to stuff the point above the driver, and put a nice layer of the same material (about an inch) on the base of the cabinet. That's about it really. BTW -Terry used 1in thick material in his drawing at the bottom of the page I linked to, so you need to keep that in mind when building out of 3/4in material. The sloping internal baffle will end 5.875in from the floor and the front & rear walls, not the 5.5in in the original diagram.
Yes, it's impressive what you can do with a single unit, if you're willing to go larger than is common nowadays. For the BIB, you need to stuff the point above the driver, and put a nice layer of the same material (about an inch) on the base of the cabinet. That's about it really. BTW -Terry used 1in thick material in his drawing at the bottom of the page I linked to, so you need to keep that in mind when building out of 3/4in material. The sloping internal baffle will end 5.875in from the floor and the front & rear walls, not the 5.5in in the original diagram.
Firstly , Welcome, Secondly .... listen to everything they are saying. I did, and I have a great system, with plenty of bass and overall volume.
I built a set of BIB's using Fostex FE168eSigmas, a bit pricy at $145(us) per driver. And I built my cabinets with Baltic Burch at $80(us) per sheet. So really I have about $500 into the speakers. You can go cheaper .... but this is an unbelievable combo.
As for amps, I have been running them with a 2watt tube amp for the last few months and never have turned it all the way up. The drivers are 94.5db efficient. My tube amp is having some issues this week, so I am currently running them off the $30 Sonic Impact T-amp. It is great. Maybe lacking a bit of bass. But for $30 it can not be beat.
If you can make a budget of $700(us) .... build BIB's using 168e sigmas and a SI Super t-amp ... you are well on your way to a system that will not need upgrading soon.
I built a set of BIB's using Fostex FE168eSigmas, a bit pricy at $145(us) per driver. And I built my cabinets with Baltic Burch at $80(us) per sheet. So really I have about $500 into the speakers. You can go cheaper .... but this is an unbelievable combo.
As for amps, I have been running them with a 2watt tube amp for the last few months and never have turned it all the way up. The drivers are 94.5db efficient. My tube amp is having some issues this week, so I am currently running them off the $30 Sonic Impact T-amp. It is great. Maybe lacking a bit of bass. But for $30 it can not be beat.
If you can make a budget of $700(us) .... build BIB's using 168e sigmas and a SI Super t-amp ... you are well on your way to a system that will not need upgrading soon.
morfius said:
For home hifi purposes we mostly ignore the power ratings. The question is, "will the speakers play load enuff". A small T-amp with its nominal 6W into 8 ohms puts it right into the same power class as a lot of the SE tube amps these were all designed to accomodate.
At typical "normal" listening levels we are using only milliwatts, so unless you are a headbanger then with Trends (or its ilk) should do a good job of getting you started.
Keep in mind that of late, we seem to be estalishing that (as a crude generalization) amplifier quality is inversely proportional to amplifier quality.
And further, the most cost effective method to get a system to play louder (assumming box size is not an issue) is to build more efficient speakers, not run out and get a bigger amplifier.
dave
Scottmoose said:
Most causes of driver failure are caused by an amplifier "accident" -- due usually to amplifier failure or doing something boneheaded*. A big DC surge goes out the amp into the voice coil and almost instantly fueses the wire in it,
*(and more likely to happen with DC coupled amplifiers).
dave
Thanks for the explanation, it's incredible how efficient some speakers can be.OzMikeH said:
Are you referring to the diagram at the bottom of this page?: http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYTQ8.htmlScottmoose said:
Is there a larger version of it as I can't make out the figures.
Thanks for the reply, I think $700 is quite a jump from my budget.G.Kennedy said:
I'll probably stick with some nice thick, cheap MDF and possibly veneer or paint it.
Thank you for the reply, once again I am amazed at the efficiency of speakers, I didn't realise how little power they required!planet10 said:
I'm not surprised the Naim had better grunt than the NAD. They both pump similar current (I assume the NAD is a 3020?) but Naim amps are renowned for their explosive bass. I'd be a bit put out if it turned out worse.
Yeah, the Monacors do need a few more watts than, say, a 166, but we're on an extremely tight budget & this is about the best I can come up with. The Fostex units that fall in budget are too small to do the bass, and there isn't really anything else that I know of better than the Monacors for this sort of money. They should do OK with a good T-amp.
Yeah, the Monacors do need a few more watts than, say, a 166, but we're on an extremely tight budget & this is about the best I can come up with. The Fostex units that fall in budget are too small to do the bass, and there isn't really anything else that I know of better than the Monacors for this sort of money. They should do OK with a good T-amp.
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