Fe167e Hiro, Chili Chang ... Something else ? - diyAudio
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Old 7th September 2007, 10:01 AM   #1
sedge1 is offline sedge1  New Zealand
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Default Fe167e Hiro, Chili Chang ... Something else ?

Hi there,

I've recently built myself a set of MJKs MLTL speakers with the fe167e. I did this to see if fullrangers were my thing. They are awesome for sparse things such as vocals with accoustic instruments or light jazz but seem a little lacking in impact on things such as accoustic kick drum transients, it's all a bit flat.

I'd like this to work or is that the limitation of smallish FR drivers ?

I've played around with some DSP EQ (I use a squeezebox as my source, FLAC into a DAC and then a Naim amp) to set the BSC up but when I shelve EQ up the bass to 400Hz enough of rock the accoustic stuff doesn't seem real enough, it kinda sucks the life out of it.

I'm also not happy with the cabinets I built as I kinda rushed them together so I'm looking at making something a little more adventurous that I can finish properly.

I've been tempted by the BIB but I don't think I can corner load them effectively as one way they would be too far apart and the other too close together with regards to the seating position.

Lately I've been looking at the spawn family on frugal-horn.com, the Hiro and Chang with the curves look very nice.

I'm happy to build anything that sounds right, so I guess I'm after advice on what would suit my room best.

The room is an area of roughly 6m x 4m with the couch on the long wall, behind the couch is a low wall (kitchen bench open to lounge) to another room of 3m x 6m ish. Hard to explain, ASCII follows ... x = speakers

==============|
|...x.............x.....|
|........................|
........couch.........|
========..........|
.........................|
........kitchen.......|
|........................|
==============|

I expect I'm turning up the wick on the accoustic stuff to get the impact and when I move to the heavier stuff it is way too hot in the upper mids.

Would the Hiro give me a little more dynamic impact lower down and still sound right on the sparse emotional stuff ?

Does it need BSC still ? Am I being silly not using a Zobel and real BSC circuit ? (rather than DSP) Is it something to with the way my amp handles the reactive loading causing a rise in the mids under load ? Would adding a Zobel and real BSC make all the difference ?

Sorry if this is a bit long-winded just wanted to give enough information. Have I ?

Appreciate any help ! I do like the look of the Hiro and if the Mrs can handle the MJK speakers she'll be fine with bigger ones

FYI: lurked around a bit for a few months, first post, please be gentle if I'm doing something dumb.

Cheers,

Sedge.
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Old 7th September 2007, 11:47 AM   #2
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You're not doing anything dumb Sedge. And this is a friendly place -we all help each other here. That's what it's all about.

There are a few issues at work here I suspect. First up we need to know exactly which cabinet those drivers are mounted in? Is it the tapered ML TQWT? Martin hasn't done a straight MLTL for these units. If it's in one designed for other drivers, the tuning's probably off.

To be honest, I think you're probably asking a bit much of a fairly small cone -they just can't shift air like a larger driver, and lifting everything below 400Hz is a huge ask -the drivers will be well beyond linear excursion, & distorting badly in the LF (don't panic -it won't cause them any damage, but it won't do sonics any favours). That's where the life from your music is going. Your amp isn't ideal either -Naim amps aren't automatically a great match to FR units, though there are things we can do to compensate for that. More of that in a minute.

OK, short of you buying a larger pair of drivers, we need to try & help you make the most of what you already have. As you obviously like dynamics (you wouldn't have a Naim amp if you didn't) then abandoning the MLTL and shifting to horn loading will probably be the best bet.

A couple of BIBs, shoved back against a rear wall (corners are useful, but not essential) should give you that. They're bass champs -the late Terry Cain, who brought the box to wide attention, commented that his original pair, with 5 1/4in units gave LF output like 15in paper cones. He's not kidding either. Best bass you're likely to get from an FR driver. There's something about big TQWT grunt that gives people an evil grin. Output in the mid 30Hz regions, no worries, & usable to 30. Hiro would also probably be a decent option for you. It won't go as low as the BIB (usable to ~50Hz or so), but if anything, it should have even better dynamics across the midbass regions. Neither require BSC -the cabinets themselves compensate for the drop-off by providing extra gain. If you still find the LF a touch weak, due to your amp not compensating for the driver's natural drop-off, add a small resistor in series with the driver. 2-3ohms should do it.

Hope some of that is useful
Scott
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Old 7th September 2007, 03:38 PM   #3
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scottmoose

........then abandoning the MLTL and shifting to horn loading will probably be the best bet.

Best bass you're likely to get from an FR driver. There's something about big TQWT grunt that gives people an evil grin.

If you still find the LF a touch weak, due to your amp not compensating for the driver's natural drop-off, add a small resistor in series with the driver. 2-3ohms should do it.
Greets!

Agreed.

Well, an optimum BLH will perform audibly better and extend much lower, but the size, build complexity and need to supplement it with a super tweeter to off-set the horn's extremely high damping that causes HF roll-off (tail wagging the dog, acoustically speaking) pretty much negates it for a typical hifi app unless your listening room is a small auditorium/cinema/theater.

FYI, the BIB is a horn since it expands towards the mouth, while a tapered (aka tuned) quarter wave tube (TQWT) is a reverse tapered horn, ergo a mass loaded pipe.

And add a by-pass cap in parallel with the resistor if it makes the extreme HF too 'dull'/rolled off.

GM
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Old 7th September 2007, 03:56 PM   #4
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Drat. Slip of the tongue / brain / keyboard. I remember you mentioning that to me before. Sorry Greg.

Good point re the cap. (Roughly) what value would you suggest?

Scott
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Old 7th September 2007, 04:08 PM   #5
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You've gotten some good advice, but let me make a further suggestion:

Have you considered adding a sub? I love my little Metronomes, but I assumed going in that I'd still want to use a sub. I've been using subs since the early '80s, so I don't have any bias against them. I don't know how one could expect a small driver in cabinet that fits into an average room to make the low bass notes that an organ creates w/ a pipe 32 ft. long.

I think many folks hold subs in ill repute because of the way some use (abuse) them--e.g. home theater set-ups designed to shake paint off walls, rather than produce balanced music. Or subs too small & too poorly made to do anything but make ulgy little thumps.

Just a thought.

Cheers, Jim
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Old 7th September 2007, 06:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scottmoose
Drat. Slip of the tongue / brain / keyboard. I remember you mentioning that to me before. Sorry Greg.

Good point re the cap. (Roughly) what value would you suggest?

Scott
Wait till you get to be my age when it's ~ a constant condition, aka 'senior moment'.

Same as a nominally 8 ohm compression horn, typically 0.1 - 1.0 UF for a nominally 8 ohm driver, so some experimentation will be required with cheap caps before buying expensive PIO/whatever your cap construction preference is.
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Old 7th September 2007, 06:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Shearer

I think many folks hold subs in ill repute because of the way some use (abuse) them--e.g. home theater set-ups designed to shake paint off walls, rather than produce balanced music. Or subs too small & too poorly made to do anything but make ulgy little thumps.
Greets!

I agree completely! I built my first one in the summer of '70 after reading a Popular Electronics DIY article and once dialed in as best I could with limited measurements I couldn't believe how much better the whole system sounded, and this with a compression horn loaded one from ~70 Hz - up, so wasn't surprised at the tremendous improvement it was to the smaller horn/mid-woofer and FR driver speakers I typically built for friends, etc..

Really, when it's time to 'get real'/'go live', 'FR' drivers need at least a wide BW HE woofer (or two/channel) to support it below their ~flat BW and a sub below that if not corner loaded in a ~16 Hz EBS alignment or corner horn if truly wide BW music or HT special effects reproduction is desired.

GM
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Old 7th September 2007, 07:39 PM   #8
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Amen to that. I like TL subs or EBS vented alignments. Preferably two of them.
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Old 7th September 2007, 10:07 PM   #9
sedge1 is offline sedge1  New Zealand
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Hi all,

Thanks for the quick replies ! Wasn't expecting that.

Yes, I built a pair of Martin Kings tapered ML TQWT designs.

I do have 2 subs (sorry, should have mentioned them) home built NHT1259s in large sealed cabs next to each of the speakers. Had them for 10 years, my Mrs is used to the size of them

I usually run them crossed at 12Db/oct 50Hz. Even with these on the leading edge of the upper bass is flat on the ML TQWT without 6Db+ of EQ. If I cross the subs higher it all becomes a little disjointed ?

I run the mains full range as I don't like the crossover in line for the top end. It's a cheap crossover and 50Hz down is for effect/ambience/power rather than fidelity.

It's a little hard to explain again

I think what I'm after is something flat to ~50Hz that needs no sensitivity sapping BSC or inline components. My theory being that less stuff in line the closer to the music I'll get.

Saying that, they really are fantastic at doing female vocals the way they are.

BIB it is then

I was close to building these to start with, was worried about the corner loading and only had enough decent ply for the ML TQWT. I also wasn't sure that FRs would do the job so it was a bit of a gamble getting drivers half way round the world. I'm sold though, very cool speakers.

Thanks for all the help, much appreciated

Cheers,

Sedge.
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Old 8th September 2007, 10:46 AM   #10
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OK, you ideally need dimensons like this (the ones I did over on Zillaspeak are a bit small), if you can stretch to it.

Cabinet height 70in for a total of a 138in line. Zdriver 30in. 10in wide x 14.375in deep, plus the thickness of the internal baffle. All dimensions internal.

Wonder what one would sound like made from CRS? About 12ga should do it I reckon.
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