Any fullrange work in all box types?

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
I everybody,

I plan on picking up a few tools and MJKs MathCAD sheets over the next few months so that I can spend the winter building boxes different types of boxes.

What I am wondering is, is there any one fullrange speaker that seems to work acceptably in all the different box types? I mean something that performs acceptable in a sealed, vented, transmission line, horn (BIB), and MLTL? The CSS FR125 seems to have a lot of different designs out there for it in most of the different types of boxes. Is there anything else out there anybody can think of?

Thanks.
 
On the Prairies, you are supposed to build speakers in the summer and do electronics in the winter !

Gmilitano you should have told my old man that one! I guess I thought I could do that kind of thing in winter due to the many hours a day I would be holding boards while dad cut them, all outside in the blizzarding snow! :cannotbe:

Thanks for the hint there on the FE127E. I see there is a lot of things one can do with that speaker. Their is a BIB design up on Godzillas site and a MLTL as well.

Thanks again.
 
davidallancole said:
Thanks for the help guys. Any more anybody can think of, maybe a little bigger in size?


well then:
for a monopole, Harvey or Mikasa from the would be worth looking at

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/download/harvey10-plans-030107.pdf

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/download/Mikasa-1v01-map-070707.pdf

if you have the budget and physical room for a bipole, the Metronome sounds great, and once you get the angles set right on your saw, a very easy build.

http://www.frugel-horn.com/metronome.html
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
davidallancole said:
How far away from the wall does a bipole need to be? I can hand around a foot, but any farther and the girlfriend will kill me.

To really be at their best probably a foot plus, but as a counter to that we were listening to Scott Dunn's BiFonkens on Friday night and they were sited about 8" from the wall (althou at a bit of an angle) and sounded FINE :)

And with Mets -- especially if made from plywood as recommended -- they are not hard to move a bit further out for really serious listening.

dave
 
davidallancole said:
Thanks guys.

Those metronomes look nice. How far away from the wall does a bipole need to be? I can hand around a foot, but any farther and the girlfriend will kill me.


well, Dave beat me to the keyboard this time, but my own further thoughts:


Given the 'nomes tapered cabinet, some slight toe-in and modest rear wall treatment, that would probably be fine.

With the right finish, probably higher GFAF than any of the Bigass boxes


An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.



Bipole Metronomes in Baltic Birch plywood - Hemp FR4.5


Mileva has the advantage of slim, wall friendly design, which in combination with the baffle width can mitigate the need for BSC filters

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.



Mileva (Mass Loaded Voigt Pipe) with Planet10 treated FE127E (circa 2006*)


BTW, I can't remember if you stated that you already have the drivers or are just shopping for ideas. If the latter, you definitely want to seriously consider talking to Dave at Planet10 regarding the latest treatment regimen for the Fostex drivers.

*initial treated pair; thanks the inspiration to further exploration based on Bud Purvine's EnAbl process, there is far more to be extracted from this driver than any yet published measurements would suggest - but for now you'll just have to take our word for that.
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Originally posted by chrisb with Planet10 treated FE127E (circa 2006*)...the latest treatment regimen for the Fostex drivers....there is far more to be extracted from this driver than any yet published measurements would suggest

The black cones in the Mileva are the very 1st of the modded FE127

Here are some pictures of our EnABLE mules. So far everyone that has heard them wants some... we are very serious about the latest enhancement, and have a series of slightly different mods just completed so as to determine the sweet spot.

Let me explain a bit. Bud's EnABLE does not affect the driver on a gross level (ie the measured frequency response before & after are essentially the same), but extends the downward resolution of the driver (despite some calls of snake oil, there is a very simple and plausible theory to how EnABLE works, and some very well documented & tested analogs in nature as well as man made).

The treatment i have been doing is aimed at some gross level response anomalies (as discovered and documented by Mark MacKenzie) as well as reducing cone self-noise. Bud & i (independently) came to the realization that a combination of the 2 would probably provide the best results, hence the possibility of 3 different schemes. Listening tests seem to be backing this up. Even without the reference of the set of just EnABLEd drivers (which met with an unfortunately early death) the 1st of the 3 variations out of the gate seems to be ahead of that one. Now we need to figure out the right mix, and we have examples of each. We also know that EnABLEing an already treated driver does give most of the benefit (it is one of the 3 schemes)

dave
 

Attachments

  • enabled-fe127s.jpg
    enabled-fe127s.jpg
    72.6 KB · Views: 879
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
attached above are 2 of the schemas (ready for a 1st listen so i can dial in the amount of gloss required on an already treated driver) and here is the 3rd (accompanied by a set of FF125k -- the existing FE127 template actually is a better fit for this driver than the 127)

dave
 

Attachments

  • enabled-fe127-ff125.jpg
    enabled-fe127-ff125.jpg
    74.5 KB · Views: 875
The Fostex 127e is very flexible. All the cabs you see here plus BIBs work great. Problem is the limited bass. The 167e may be a better choice for fuller sounding bass. You can make a small ported box, medium sized ported box or a BIB with this driver also. I like both these drivers.

The Tangband 4 inch Bamboo driver is pretty flexible too. It works in small sealed or ported boxes and should work well in a larger BIB.

There are others. Pick your poison and enjoy!
Godzilla

PS. I see the pic of the 125k next to the 127e... any comments on they differ in sound Dave?
 
Thanks for the responses.

To answer your question chrisb, I have not bought any speakers yet. I have settled on building the hemp 8" MLTL that Scottmoose has simmed up listed in this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107444. This will be for my main system.

I was also looking for a set of speakers that would work well in all types of boxes, so I can try them all and learn about them. This will help me learn about the different box types and also about wood working itself. The FR125s look good and so do these FE127Es. I would probably lean towards the FE127Es but I like what everybody says about the FR125s, especially with their abillity to make bass out of such a small speaker.

This EnABLing, are you cutting a ton of tiny holes in the cone and dust cap? Do you have more information or links to this?

Those metronomes look nice. The girlfriend said she wanted something that looked different, just not gigantic, so I will have to show here those. That Mileva is also a nice looking speaker.
 
davidallancole said:
Thanks for the responses.

To answer your question chrisb, I have not bought any speakers yet. I have settled on building the hemp 8" MLTL that Scottmoose has simmed up listed in this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107444. This will be for my main system.

I was also looking for a set of speakers that would work well in all types of boxes, so I can try them all and learn about them. This will help me learn about the different box types and also about wood working itself. The FR125s look good and so do these FE127Es. I would probably lean towards the FE127Es but I like what everybody says about the FR125s, especially with their abillity to make bass out of such a small speaker.

Without any disrespect to the FR125, from which I've built several systems, the specified Fostex drivers have a lot to offer.



This EnABLing, are you cutting a ton of tiny holes in the cone and dust cap? Do you have more information or links to this?

Nope, in this case it's a particular type of acrylic paint for the blocks (some folks are experimenting with other materials), finished with a clear top coat.


Those metronomes look nice. The girlfriend said she wanted something that looked different, just not gigantic, so I will have to show here those. That Mileva is also a nice looking speaker.

davidallancole said:
Thanks for the hint on the FE167E Godzilla. The bass looks like it goes further down 10 Hz or so than the FE127E.

There's no question that compared to the FE127E, even compact enclosures for the FE167E (including Fostex's own recommended BR) are certainly capable of deeper bass extension and slightly higher sensitivity as well. However to take full advantage of the latter driver's dynamic capabilities can require an enclosure significantly larger than for the FE127E.
FWIW, the Mileva design is similar to BIB in the sense of it's "scalability" - the same folding topology sized to fit the FE167 is considerably more intrusive, and in my own case develops more bass than the room can handle.

For my sensibilities, and in 2 separate listening rooms in my own home (340ft^2 and 200ft^2), the smaller driver wins overall in regards to midrange, imaging and smooth in-room low end roll off.
 
Godzilla said:
The Fostex 127e is very flexible. All the cabs you see here plus BIBs work great. Problem is the limited bass. The 167e may be a better choice for fuller sounding bass. You can make a small ported box, medium sized ported box or a BIB with this driver also. I like both these drivers.

The Tangband 4 inch Bamboo driver is pretty flexible too. It works in small sealed or ported boxes and should work well in a larger BIB.

There are others. Pick your poison and enjoy!
Godzilla

PS. I see the pic of the 125k next to the 127e... any comments on they differ in sound Dave?


Hopefully a listening test in the next day or so will help to answer that one.
 
davidallancole,

The EnABL process is pretty deeply covered in this thread.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100399&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

The process is even stranger than cutting holes, it is done by painting rectangular blocks on the surface of the driver. Meant to eliminate the possibility of cone edge reflections and diffractions, so a large amount of information that would have become noise remains as coherent signal. In addition, on the gross level, it does raise the phase lag that all speakers exhibit, as frequencies go up, primarily due to surface friction in the boundary layer. This lag is typically 12 to 15 degrees by 20 kHz and the basic patterning, what you see in Dave's work, lifts this to zero phase deviation.

Between these two events, a pretty tremendous amount of coherent spatial information, inner detail color and musician applied emphasis to notes become available. And this with no downside.

Since you can obtain them from Dave, as soon as his investigations are finished, I recommend you await his product availability.

On the Hemp 8" front, Perry has been promising to send me a set of full range drivers for EnABL treatment. Based upon how well the FR 4.5 responded to treatment you might want to watch the above thread for DIY instructions. As with all of the treated drivers, I will also provide treatment, but I am kind of spendy. Interesting options coming your way regardless.

Bud
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
BudP said:
On the Hemp 8" front, Perry has been promising to send me a set of full range drivers for EnABL treatment. Based upon how well the FR 4.5 responded to treatment you might want to watch the above thread for DIY instructions. As with all of the treated drivers, I will also provide treatment, but I am kind of spendy. Interesting options coming your way regardless.

After we work thru the FE127 (and collaterally the FE126) i'll be takling FE167/207 and hemps (starting with the 4.5)

dave
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.