do today's compact neodymium motors tend to sound more like compact alnico than big-slug ferrite? (EV's SP12 had a huge iron pot ring)
btw -Eminence makes a hemp-cone neo motor cast-frame 10" which can be bought for as low as $70 ea - - too bad they don't make a wideband 10" neo-hemp for home use at ~that price point - - - guess that says somethiing about the market (?)
will popular fullrange move to neo motor ?
btw -Eminence makes a hemp-cone neo motor cast-frame 10" which can be bought for as low as $70 ea - - too bad they don't make a wideband 10" neo-hemp for home use at ~that price point - - - guess that says somethiing about the market (?)
will popular fullrange move to neo motor ?
Why the field coil drivers with paper cone sound stunning? (Fertin,Supravox,Shindo Latour-moddified Altec,Feastrex.. ..etc)
Why the alnico drivers with paper cone sound stunning?(Phy..etc)
...all these comparing with neo or ferrite speakers.
The mark of the sound is made by material of the cone (in this case -paper)and microdetails is delivered with the help of the magnet type.
the magnet provides a magnetic field. this together with a current in a voicecoil generates a force that moves the cone. the magnetic field is one variable in the design of a driver. if you design two drivers, one with alnico, one with neo to have exactly the same magnetic field around the voice coil and everything else is the same, they will sound equal. since neo is stronger, you can have the same field strength with less magnet material. so its mainly a weight and cost factor --> good for PA.
since its easier to get a strong magnet using neo, i can imagine manufacturers building more drivers with stronger magnets, so you have drivers that sound different. (but you can see this in the ts parameters)
quote.... "Why the field coil drivers with paper cone sound stunning? (Fertin,Supravox,Shindo Latour-moddified Altec,Feastrex.. ..etc)
Why the alnico drivers with paper cone sound stunning?(Phy..etc)"
Thats probably because they are well manufactured and expensive. Thats one factor that makes it sound better and another factor that cheats your brain into thinking sounds better.
When deciding what driver to use, look at the ts parameters and the measurements of the frequency/impulse response. That says everything, after which lies audiophile country. one is well advisen to stay out there.
since its easier to get a strong magnet using neo, i can imagine manufacturers building more drivers with stronger magnets, so you have drivers that sound different. (but you can see this in the ts parameters)
quote.... "Why the field coil drivers with paper cone sound stunning? (Fertin,Supravox,Shindo Latour-moddified Altec,Feastrex.. ..etc)
Why the alnico drivers with paper cone sound stunning?(Phy..etc)"
Thats probably because they are well manufactured and expensive. Thats one factor that makes it sound better and another factor that cheats your brain into thinking sounds better.
When deciding what driver to use, look at the ts parameters and the measurements of the frequency/impulse response. That says everything, after which lies audiophile country. one is well advisen to stay out there.
Alnico should be less sensitive to the changes in the magnet field caused by the movement of the coil, which it generates distortion, thus the devellopment of farraday short rings in the gap, which the alnico dont need
Also the alnico motor sometimes has the pole plates arranged differently which is made possible by the different dimensions of the alnico
alnico is made longer to get more strength, where the ordinary used magnet has to be wider to gain strength, thus a different design of the whole motor
Neo is said to NOT need the short rings either
will this actually lower the quality of the advanced technology develloped over the years
Bare in mind that a stronger motor does NOT always result in better sound, quite the opposite may happen i some cases, especially in the midrange
Also the alnico motor sometimes has the pole plates arranged differently which is made possible by the different dimensions of the alnico
alnico is made longer to get more strength, where the ordinary used magnet has to be wider to gain strength, thus a different design of the whole motor
Neo is said to NOT need the short rings either
will this actually lower the quality of the advanced technology develloped over the years
Bare in mind that a stronger motor does NOT always result in better sound, quite the opposite may happen i some cases, especially in the midrange
It's interesting that different magnet materials do have a
signature to their sound.
If you want to compare apples-to-apples, you can listen to the
Lowther products, where you can get essentially the same driver
with ceramic, Neodymium, Alnico and Ticonal Alnico.
They each have their own charm, and it becomes at least partly
a matter of taste.
signature to their sound.
If you want to compare apples-to-apples, you can listen to the
Lowther products, where you can get essentially the same driver
with ceramic, Neodymium, Alnico and Ticonal Alnico.
They each have their own charm, and it becomes at least partly
a matter of taste.
Curious. I remember servicing a bunch of Turbosound mid/high PA boxes a while back, and opening them up to check connections found two that had much smaller magnets on the 10" drivers. I chased this up with the Turbosound tech. rep. and he said they were a test run of neo magnet drivers that they had sold on cheap as spares to the original owner of the rig. Intrigued, we set them up and as people came though the shop we had them informally listen and see if they could tell the difference. No-one could, including me.
However, I wonder if smaller boutique manufacturers modify the motors to make the best use of the different characteristics, whereas PD, who made the drivers I heard had just done a straight exact equivalent magnet swap for production prototyping.
:edit: Just to clarify, the original drivers had ferrite magnets.
However, I wonder if smaller boutique manufacturers modify the motors to make the best use of the different characteristics, whereas PD, who made the drivers I heard had just done a straight exact equivalent magnet swap for production prototyping.
:edit: Just to clarify, the original drivers had ferrite magnets.
MaVo, you will find it explained here
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/projectmay/technology/1500al.htm
As to why a smaller magnet may produce better midrange than a more powerfull ..
Well, it has just been a personal experience
But looking at driver measurement it is not uncommon that the one and same driver shows unlinear and even peaking FR when magnet force is increased
I dont claim that such drivers sound good at all, but you will often find the most linear drivers among the low SPL drivers, backside is that they may sound very dull
I will say like "MoodyBlues" ... its a question of balance
There will always be a fine balance between wattage, SPL, Xmax ...
Its ok to talk about magnet material, but lets not forget the build quality, like the use of maschined poleplates with a nice shape and nontwisted plane surfaced magnets
And further more the use of underhung coils, which might be ONE of the merrits of the Altec drivers
Thick poleplates with short Xmax may be just as good
But cone shape, spider, surrounds, and even voice coil material are just as important
Some even claim that voice coils should be wound on paper like in the old days ... I think Lowther do that, and maybe even some cheap chinese drivers ... and maybe others like PHY, Supravox, EMS and other high SPL and low wattage drivers ... but I dont know that for sure, just a suspicion
Nelson makes an interesting point, but maybe each magnet material need special and individual care taken to get the most of it
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/projectmay/technology/1500al.htm
As to why a smaller magnet may produce better midrange than a more powerfull ..
Well, it has just been a personal experience
But looking at driver measurement it is not uncommon that the one and same driver shows unlinear and even peaking FR when magnet force is increased
I dont claim that such drivers sound good at all, but you will often find the most linear drivers among the low SPL drivers, backside is that they may sound very dull
I will say like "MoodyBlues" ... its a question of balance
There will always be a fine balance between wattage, SPL, Xmax ...
Its ok to talk about magnet material, but lets not forget the build quality, like the use of maschined poleplates with a nice shape and nontwisted plane surfaced magnets
And further more the use of underhung coils, which might be ONE of the merrits of the Altec drivers
Thick poleplates with short Xmax may be just as good
But cone shape, spider, surrounds, and even voice coil material are just as important
Some even claim that voice coils should be wound on paper like in the old days ... I think Lowther do that, and maybe even some cheap chinese drivers ... and maybe others like PHY, Supravox, EMS and other high SPL and low wattage drivers ... but I dont know that for sure, just a suspicion
Nelson makes an interesting point, but maybe each magnet material need special and individual care taken to get the most of it
alnico
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Thermal compression.
How well does the magnet dissipate heat from the voice coil?
Google the materials used to fabricate the magnets and you will see that alnico or cobalt is superior material for transfering heat. The result is better dynamics and better linearity.
Neodymium is actually a poor medium for heat dissipation.
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Thermal compression.
How well does the magnet dissipate heat from the voice coil?
Google the materials used to fabricate the magnets and you will see that alnico or cobalt is superior material for transfering heat. The result is better dynamics and better linearity.
Neodymium is actually a poor medium for heat dissipation.
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I read a comment somewhere that the field in the ferrite can be pushed around slightly by the voice coil field.
Something to do with the ferrite being non conductive was their reason. Conductive magnets are better at resisting this.
I think might have been from a thread about a huge DIY ribbon someone was building in the alternative loudspeakers.
What wasn't mentioned was the magnitude of the effect. I can't imagine it being very large.
Something to do with the ferrite being non conductive was their reason. Conductive magnets are better at resisting this.
I think might have been from a thread about a huge DIY ribbon someone was building in the alternative loudspeakers.
What wasn't mentioned was the magnitude of the effect. I can't imagine it being very large.
There is another difference: Alnico and Neo are electrically conducting - ferrite isn't.
This can have an effect on microdetails (Barkhausen noise). You can read about that on the Celtic Audio site. If there are any detailed questions about that then this is the right time to post them. I will attend a speech by John Watkinson in exactly one week and will be able to ask him personally.
Regards
Charles
This can have an effect on microdetails (Barkhausen noise). You can read about that on the Celtic Audio site. If there are any detailed questions about that then this is the right time to post them. I will attend a speech by John Watkinson in exactly one week and will be able to ask him personally.
Regards
Charles
phase_accurate said:
Again, that should have been audible with a 96dB sensitive driver if it were a significant factor.
Of course I'm not saying that manufacturers such as Lowther don't create different sound by using different magnets, that would be patently untrue. What I am saying is that if you design and specify the magnets properly to produce identical conditions in the motor there is no difference. However for the hifi market the main reason for using neo, weight, is not a factor, so the only thing that makes it worthwhile to use is to give a unique selling point and therefore having slightly different sounding drivers is a positive.
John W claims that speakers using ferrite magnets would have less dynamic range (SNR) than 16-bit PCM permits. This might be quite difficult to check. But he claims to have checked the difference and it was audible.
Even if there would be no difference in acoustical performance there are enough differences that would justify the use of alnico beyond just being a novelty:
- Smaller magnet size enables better aerodynamics aoround the voice-coil
- Center magnet construction (like the classic alnico magnets) enables designs with intrinsic magnet shielding.
Regards
Charles
Even if there would be no difference in acoustical performance there are enough differences that would justify the use of alnico beyond just being a novelty:
- Smaller magnet size enables better aerodynamics aoround the voice-coil
- Center magnet construction (like the classic alnico magnets) enables designs with intrinsic magnet shielding.
Regards
Charles
Re: Re: alnico
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Perhaps it is evident - however, a consert hall with 1000+ seats is not a high fidelity setup. Maximum SPL is the order of the day.
Common engineering praxis calculates with an energy loss of about 95% in and around the voice coil. The rise in temperature reduces the coils electrical ability. Any transducer is a part of the crossover. You change the electrical parameters in the speaker, you change the behavior of the crossover.
Ceramic magnets are actually good at insulating which is not an ability you would want around the voice coil gap. Further more, it is easier to manufacture alnico to tighter tolerances than to do the same with ceramic magnets which is why you often see a larger voice coil gap in these speakers. This introduces further dynamic compression since air provides even better insulation.
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pinkmouse said:
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Perhaps it is evident - however, a consert hall with 1000+ seats is not a high fidelity setup. Maximum SPL is the order of the day.
Common engineering praxis calculates with an energy loss of about 95% in and around the voice coil. The rise in temperature reduces the coils electrical ability. Any transducer is a part of the crossover. You change the electrical parameters in the speaker, you change the behavior of the crossover.
Ceramic magnets are actually good at insulating which is not an ability you would want around the voice coil gap. Further more, it is easier to manufacture alnico to tighter tolerances than to do the same with ceramic magnets which is why you often see a larger voice coil gap in these speakers. This introduces further dynamic compression since air provides even better insulation.
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