I'm looking for a slim design like the Needle but with around 90dB to accomodate my Class T Charlize amp. I thought the Fostex 108 might be a good choise (I've seen used in the Picolino).
Is it possible to adapt the Needle to the Fostex or will the Fostex simply not work in the QTWT design.
Is it possible to adapt the Needle to the Fostex or will the Fostex simply not work in the QTWT design.
The Fostex is basically a rather large tweeter in disguise & it has to be horn-loaded if you want any LF performance at all. We can QW load them down there, but distortion will rocket as their excursion is minimal to put it mildly, so you'll need a sub. If you have a sub, then a Metronome should do you: www.frugal-horn.com
If you're willing to go for a more complicated build, then the Frugal-horn is probably the best option, or even the old CT164 design which should also be good. Beyond that, you're looking at a dedicated multiway setup, with the 108 run widewand, with LF support, and possibly a supertweeter up top.
If you're willing to go for a more complicated build, then the Frugal-horn is probably the best option, or even the old CT164 design which should also be good. Beyond that, you're looking at a dedicated multiway setup, with the 108 run widewand, with LF support, and possibly a supertweeter up top.
Scottmoose said:The Fostex is basically a rather large tweeter in disguise & it has to be horn-loaded if you want any LF performance at all. We can QW load them down there, but distortion will rocket as their excursion is minimal to put it mildly, so you'll need a sub. If you have a sub, then a Metronome should do you: www.frugal-horn.com
If you're willing to go for a more complicated build, then the Frugal-horn is probably the best option, or even the old CT164 design which should also be good. Beyond that, you're looking at a dedicated multiway setup, with the 108 run widewand, with LF support, and possibly a supertweeter up top.
Scott, the FE108E Sigma definitely works quite well in the Frugelhorn (although not as extending as deeply into LF area as the FE126E), with much smoother low control than a BIB. A supra-baffle is highly recommended on the FH with either driver.
Frugile horn wih fe108
Hello:
I had the pleasure of listening to a wonderful set of Frugal horns made that used the fe108 driver. The design was done by "Planet10" and the build was done by "Doorman".
I have been extremely impressed with this driver when listening at normal listen levels. As "Scottmoose" points out the driver does not have the umph to rattle your ribs. So look elsewhere if that is your objective.
During a listening session over the Christmas break last year Doorman brought his set of horns over to my place for a brew and bull session. We listened to his horns and his wonderful Bruce Rozinbult Grounded Grid Preamp. We hooked things up through my MiniA and sat and enjoyed the music. The things that impressed me were first and foremost the width and depth of the sound stage, followed by the clarity and crispness of the sound. We had my sub-woofer tuned to about 50 htz and set to a fairly low level to help pick up the bottom end.
All in all I would recommend this driver in the Frugal horn enclosure with and small sub to help out in the bottom end.
I have heard this driver in a few enclosures in the past as well. "Chrisby" made a set of Bushhorns or a variant a few years ago. These horns were a slim yet deep design. I am sure he will chime in and comment. I really liked the design and the workmanship of the enclosure.
Some folks say that it takes a long time to really break in and come to it's best.
I hope this helps
Hello:
I had the pleasure of listening to a wonderful set of Frugal horns made that used the fe108 driver. The design was done by "Planet10" and the build was done by "Doorman".
I have been extremely impressed with this driver when listening at normal listen levels. As "Scottmoose" points out the driver does not have the umph to rattle your ribs. So look elsewhere if that is your objective.
During a listening session over the Christmas break last year Doorman brought his set of horns over to my place for a brew and bull session. We listened to his horns and his wonderful Bruce Rozinbult Grounded Grid Preamp. We hooked things up through my MiniA and sat and enjoyed the music. The things that impressed me were first and foremost the width and depth of the sound stage, followed by the clarity and crispness of the sound. We had my sub-woofer tuned to about 50 htz and set to a fairly low level to help pick up the bottom end.
All in all I would recommend this driver in the Frugal horn enclosure with and small sub to help out in the bottom end.
I have heard this driver in a few enclosures in the past as well. "Chrisby" made a set of Bushhorns or a variant a few years ago. These horns were a slim yet deep design. I am sure he will chime in and comment. I really liked the design and the workmanship of the enclosure.
Some folks say that it takes a long time to really break in and come to it's best.
I hope this helps
"chime"
Scott, thanks for the opportunity to revisit this so quickly, as I realize in my prior post that I forgot to mention amp compatibility.
All of the Fostex based speakers we've played with during the past several years have been MLTL's modeled with MJK's spreadsheets; BLH's in the form of either Buschorn MkI or MkII, Dave's Frugelhorn, or Ron Clarke's A126; or the aperiodically damped Fonken; and finally, the other Dave's FE108 BIB's.
The Buschorns referred to by Scott were the MKII variant, and I've subsequently determined (by building a couple of pairs) that I actually prefer the smaller MkI. I can't tell you I've heard a direct comparison to any similar commercial product, but the MkI was a starting point for the form factor of the Frugelhorn, which certainly surpasses it (the MkI) sonically. Of course once you add the supra baffle and rear deflector, it can probably loose points on the WAF side of anyone's ledger.
During this period, I've had opportunity to hear numerous combinations of any of these speakers with a variety of SS and tube amps, ranging from my Denon HT receiver (don't ask!), at least 4 GainClones with different flavor of chips, the Mini-aleph; to SET, SEP and P/P tubed amps with 2A3, 300B, EL84 & EL34.
For me, the lower powered/ low damping factor SE amps (most notably the Bottlehead ParamourII and Dave's Decware Taboo) engaged in the most intimate and articulate dance with the full range drivers / horns of all of these combinations.
Don't get me wrong, for example, the Mini-aleph make for great 2.0 video amp (and small room heater) with the FE127/Mileva, but for goose-bump inspiring musical magic, it's hard to beat full-range/" triode cream" (thanks forever for that vision, Harvey R)
Scott, thanks for the opportunity to revisit this so quickly, as I realize in my prior post that I forgot to mention amp compatibility.
All of the Fostex based speakers we've played with during the past several years have been MLTL's modeled with MJK's spreadsheets; BLH's in the form of either Buschorn MkI or MkII, Dave's Frugelhorn, or Ron Clarke's A126; or the aperiodically damped Fonken; and finally, the other Dave's FE108 BIB's.
The Buschorns referred to by Scott were the MKII variant, and I've subsequently determined (by building a couple of pairs) that I actually prefer the smaller MkI. I can't tell you I've heard a direct comparison to any similar commercial product, but the MkI was a starting point for the form factor of the Frugelhorn, which certainly surpasses it (the MkI) sonically. Of course once you add the supra baffle and rear deflector, it can probably loose points on the WAF side of anyone's ledger.
During this period, I've had opportunity to hear numerous combinations of any of these speakers with a variety of SS and tube amps, ranging from my Denon HT receiver (don't ask!), at least 4 GainClones with different flavor of chips, the Mini-aleph; to SET, SEP and P/P tubed amps with 2A3, 300B, EL84 & EL34.
For me, the lower powered/ low damping factor SE amps (most notably the Bottlehead ParamourII and Dave's Decware Taboo) engaged in the most intimate and articulate dance with the full range drivers / horns of all of these combinations.
Don't get me wrong, for example, the Mini-aleph make for great 2.0 video amp (and small room heater) with the FE127/Mileva, but for goose-bump inspiring musical magic, it's hard to beat full-range/" triode cream" (thanks forever for that vision, Harvey R)
108
I agree, scottmoose
"The Fostex is basically a rather large tweeter in disguise & it has to be horn-loaded if you want any LF performance at all. We can QW load them down there, but distortion will rocket as their excursion is minimal to put it mildly, so you'll need a sub."
the data shows ~0,26 mm Xmax,
thats enough for 0,2 watt, but for example a bass horn
would need at 70 Hz ~ 1mm and at ~150 Hz 0,6 mm
average for 1 Watt
http://www.fostexspeaker.de/fullrange/fesigma/fe108ez.pdf
an alternative with two 108 and membran cross seting would
realize 0,5 watt without distroition.
the small POSAUNE
I agree, scottmoose
"The Fostex is basically a rather large tweeter in disguise & it has to be horn-loaded if you want any LF performance at all. We can QW load them down there, but distortion will rocket as their excursion is minimal to put it mildly, so you'll need a sub."
the data shows ~0,26 mm Xmax,
thats enough for 0,2 watt, but for example a bass horn
would need at 70 Hz ~ 1mm and at ~150 Hz 0,6 mm
average for 1 Watt
http://www.fostexspeaker.de/fullrange/fesigma/fe108ez.pdf
an alternative with two 108 and membran cross seting would
realize 0,5 watt without distroition.
the small POSAUNE
Attachments
Scottmoose said:If you want a simple pipe? Well, the FX120 is 89db for 1w. Not cheap, but a superb driver & decent excursion, that almost hits your goal. Off the top of my head, that's about the lot of the units I know, of that size. The Jordan is lovely of course, but less sensitive.
Yes, this driver has the specs i'm looking for. For sale for € 114 in Germany is not a cheap solution. Does somebody know the Seas 11F-LGWD. Seems to have the right spec but can't find any designs with them.
Pardon my prickliness, but how about some anecdotal experience from others (i.e besides myself) who've actually heard an FE108E Sigma, perhaps in several enclosure designs?
To repeat, it's been my experience that for attempts at full range (as opposed to midrange only in OBs) they perform better in a well executed BLH- e.g. Ed Shilling's "Horn" ( as well as numerous DIY designs, including the Frugelhorn), than in simpler "pipes" such as inverted BIB, etc.
and again risking repetition (bordering on obsession?) , please don't overlook the amp "synergy" issue - I've heard more drivers than just any of the 4" range of Fostex fullrangers sound a bit thin and dry for my tastes on a variety of "chip" amps
To repeat, it's been my experience that for attempts at full range (as opposed to midrange only in OBs) they perform better in a well executed BLH- e.g. Ed Shilling's "Horn" ( as well as numerous DIY designs, including the Frugelhorn), than in simpler "pipes" such as inverted BIB, etc.
and again risking repetition (bordering on obsession?) , please don't overlook the amp "synergy" issue - I've heard more drivers than just any of the 4" range of Fostex fullrangers sound a bit thin and dry for my tastes on a variety of "chip" amps
The default Needle isn't *bad* with a TA2020, so it's not a *complete* waste of time to build vanilla Needles - though I often wish that there was just a bit more volume available with my Needles + Amp6.
However, I suspect that 4" drivers are easier to match to a low-power Tripath amp, if you're as reluctant as I am to start a full-on horn build. I am curious about the Cyburgs Stick myself, as I like the Needles and the Sticks are said to be similar.
A 3" bipole might also be the ticket - a bipole with 2x8ohm drivers present a more suitable load to a Tripath: 4ohm. You're basically adding 2 extra drivers "for free", given how the Tripath amp handles current. Bipole TABAQ or Needle maybe?
These are only my hunches and suspicions, but we're in the same boat so I hope they're useful. Please keep us informed about your findings.
However, I suspect that 4" drivers are easier to match to a low-power Tripath amp, if you're as reluctant as I am to start a full-on horn build. I am curious about the Cyburgs Stick myself, as I like the Needles and the Sticks are said to be similar.
A 3" bipole might also be the ticket - a bipole with 2x8ohm drivers present a more suitable load to a Tripath: 4ohm. You're basically adding 2 extra drivers "for free", given how the Tripath amp handles current. Bipole TABAQ or Needle maybe?
These are only my hunches and suspicions, but we're in the same boat so I hope they're useful. Please keep us informed about your findings.
I've heard the 108ESigmas in a fair few enclosure types & I'm still singing from the same song-sheet as Chris, as I was from the off. It's a lovely unit, no doubt about that, but if you want to run it without any support, then a horn is mandatory.
If you're willing to add a sub, then you do have some more flexibility for Metronomes, Needles & the like, providing you XO quite high up to take the work off the drivers. Twin subs are better for that. They'll have the same precise imaging as the horns, but presentation is more 'monitor-like' while the horns tend to present a larger soundstage, and a generally more relaxed sound.
If you're willing to add a sub, then you do have some more flexibility for Metronomes, Needles & the like, providing you XO quite high up to take the work off the drivers. Twin subs are better for that. They'll have the same precise imaging as the horns, but presentation is more 'monitor-like' while the horns tend to present a larger soundstage, and a generally more relaxed sound.
More design paramters
Hello Theon:
I have gone over this thread a second time to try and help you out. I think in order to help you out you need to come back with a few more design expectation.
You originally asked about the Fe108. You got a couple of comments from me and Chris and Scott regarding that driver.
From there we go on a bit of a fishing trip with other drivers. I think we might be able to help you out if you could characterize a bit more of what you are looking for in a design. A bit of back ground and a bit regarding you equipment might help.
I hope we can help
Hello Theon:
I have gone over this thread a second time to try and help you out. I think in order to help you out you need to come back with a few more design expectation.
You originally asked about the Fe108. You got a couple of comments from me and Chris and Scott regarding that driver.
From there we go on a bit of a fishing trip with other drivers. I think we might be able to help you out if you could characterize a bit more of what you are looking for in a design. A bit of back ground and a bit regarding you equipment might help.
I hope we can help
Hello SCD,
Thanks so far for your comments, it helps me to make up my mind. I'll explain my design question. I've built a few needles so far with the Omnes B3.1 and they sound great to my ears and great with the Hypex USD 180 I built earlier. I have the needles in my bedroom now and have a Amp6 and a Diy cd player with the Philips CD-pro module. The week link in this combination is the Amp6 which might have a bit more power or... the needles, they might be a bit more sensitive... say 89 or 90 dB. All in all I think that the Omnes driver is a nice driver but there must be better drivers around.
The combination would be perfect if they would play just a touch louder. Since all the amps with the Tripath 2020 lack te power my thought was changing the driver.
What I like about the Needles is how simple they are. I'm not tempted to build Horns yet... to big and to complicated. (love how they sound though)
Thanks so far for your comments, it helps me to make up my mind. I'll explain my design question. I've built a few needles so far with the Omnes B3.1 and they sound great to my ears and great with the Hypex USD 180 I built earlier. I have the needles in my bedroom now and have a Amp6 and a Diy cd player with the Philips CD-pro module. The week link in this combination is the Amp6 which might have a bit more power or... the needles, they might be a bit more sensitive... say 89 or 90 dB. All in all I think that the Omnes driver is a nice driver but there must be better drivers around.
The combination would be perfect if they would play just a touch louder. Since all the amps with the Tripath 2020 lack te power my thought was changing the driver.
What I like about the Needles is how simple they are. I'm not tempted to build Horns yet... to big and to complicated. (love how they sound though)
Well, the Frugal horn isn't exactly large... that said, it's not the easiest of builds if your tools are limited, hense the flat-packs, although there isn't a European supplier of those yet. Have you thought of the 4 1/2in FE126E / FE127E? That would open up quite a few other cabinet possibilities.
Scottmoose said:Well, the Frugal horn isn't exactly large... that said, it's not the easiest of builds if your tools are limited, hense the flat-packs, although there isn't a European supplier of those yet. Have you thought of the 4 1/2in FE126E / FE127E? That would open up quite a few other cabinet possibilities.
The charme of the needle is its size ratio to its sound. I can squeeze an 8 cm driver in a 11 cm wide and 110 cm high cabinet and end up with a design that is slim, small enough to satisfy even my wife with a big enough sound to satisfy my ears; sort of the ideal deal. I know it will never equal the sound of the big horns or any other cabinet without compromise. As a builder of organs I know that you only compromise the real thing with smart solutions; simple but effective. I consider the big, big designs with may drivers and its expensive filtres as over the top.
If I'am able to squeeze appr. 30 hz from an enclosure of 27 litres (closed organ pipe) with a reasonable strengh of tone. I really don't see the point in creating anything bigger to accomplish the same thing. In a 4r line I shoul be able to create the same thing in a design of 1/2 of 27 litres. That works in the needle design but at the cost of performance... So here is my search for a driver that has the same musicality as the Omnes Audio B3.1 but with a bigger sound and appr. the same size or a bit more...
The great quest
Hello again Theon:
The quest you are after is not going to be an easy one. My inital thoughts are that it may be a forlorn journey that will need at least one more compromise to reach an acceptable outcome. As far as I understand deep sound requires the movement of larger amounts of air. In order to get this you either need big drivers with lots area or drivers with lots of excursion. You also generally speaking need power to move the air with impact.
I think Scott indicated earlier that you may want to work on a two way system with the lower frequencies being handled by a pair of bass speakers out of the way some where. The lower frequencies are not directional so the cabinet can be hidden away. You can chose a lot of drivers for the mid and upper range that are quite sensitive so your small power amps can really shine.
The fostex drivers get great favour here as they are sensitive affordable and have great sound. These are important attibutes. There are other drivers out there to chose from as well.
I am keen on the fostex drivers.
I hope we are helping you work your way through the challenges.
Hello again Theon:
The quest you are after is not going to be an easy one. My inital thoughts are that it may be a forlorn journey that will need at least one more compromise to reach an acceptable outcome. As far as I understand deep sound requires the movement of larger amounts of air. In order to get this you either need big drivers with lots area or drivers with lots of excursion. You also generally speaking need power to move the air with impact.
I think Scott indicated earlier that you may want to work on a two way system with the lower frequencies being handled by a pair of bass speakers out of the way some where. The lower frequencies are not directional so the cabinet can be hidden away. You can chose a lot of drivers for the mid and upper range that are quite sensitive so your small power amps can really shine.
The fostex drivers get great favour here as they are sensitive affordable and have great sound. These are important attibutes. There are other drivers out there to chose from as well.
I am keen on the fostex drivers.
I hope we are helping you work your way through the challenges.
Might i suggest the Fonken-tune Floorstander Mk 1? ~18x12x99 cm WxDxH (if made with 12mm). Uses the FE127 so ~92 dB/1W. You do need to "nail" it to the floor somehow, but the same problem exists for any "needle" shaped box.
http://planet10-hifi.com/fonken.html
dave
http://planet10-hifi.com/fonken.html
dave
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