They're no harder to work with than any other FR unit, assuming that the claimed T/S parameters on Lowther's site are treated as the work of fiction they are
Thats the major reason i have never spent any real effort in designing for Lowthers. Fostex , i trust. Without exacting , or dang close, performance numbers its almost impossible to establish the design parameters.
Plus the fact that most Lowther/AER drivers are pricewise out of the reach of the common DIYer.
I believe TC (RIP) once stated that comparing Fostex drivers vrs Lowthers was nothing more than audio masterxxxion.
ron
Thats the major reason i have never spent any real effort in designing for Lowthers. Fostex , i trust. Without exacting , or dang close, performance numbers its almost impossible to establish the design parameters.
Plus the fact that most Lowther/AER drivers are pricewise out of the reach of the common DIYer.
I believe TC (RIP) once stated that comparing Fostex drivers vrs Lowthers was nothing more than audio masterxxxion.
ron
Hi Ron,
these are the T/S-params for the PM6C (the most affordable of the range), as measured by the German Klang+Ton DIY magazine:
Le: 0.90 mH
RDC: 6.96 R
SD: 206.0 cm^2
Qm: 2.74
Qe: 0.44
Qt: 0.38
fs: 62.87 Hz
VAS: 32.20 l
Mms: 11.86 g
Rms: 1.86 kg/s
Cms: 0.54 mm/N
B*L: 8.26 Tm
No: 1.75 %
SPL: 94.44 db 1W/1m / 95.04 db 2.83V/m
I have used these params for the modeling of my own Lowther based horns, and the results seem to match the sims. The enclosures are still not quite 'right', but this seems more due to some implementation mistakes made by me.
I have owned FE167Es, FE108E Sigmas, and now (modified) PM6Cs. They all sounded different to me, the Lowthers being (by far) the most transparent of all; I'll stick with them.
Best,
Oliver
ron said:
these are the T/S-params for the PM6C (the most affordable of the range), as measured by the German Klang+Ton DIY magazine:
Le: 0.90 mH
RDC: 6.96 R
SD: 206.0 cm^2
Qm: 2.74
Qe: 0.44
Qt: 0.38
fs: 62.87 Hz
VAS: 32.20 l
Mms: 11.86 g
Rms: 1.86 kg/s
Cms: 0.54 mm/N
B*L: 8.26 Tm
No: 1.75 %
SPL: 94.44 db 1W/1m / 95.04 db 2.83V/m
I have used these params for the modeling of my own Lowther based horns, and the results seem to match the sims. The enclosures are still not quite 'right', but this seems more due to some implementation mistakes made by me.
ron said:
I have owned FE167Es, FE108E Sigmas, and now (modified) PM6Cs. They all sounded different to me, the Lowthers being (by far) the most transparent of all; I'll stick with them.
Best,
Oliver
Lars is right. I enjoy my Lowthers more and more every day. After 2000 hours of listening the sound is still gaining richness and depth.
I heard the drivers in a Hedlund once - I liked the sound and decided to buy a pair. The Hedlunds however have a few flaws in the design: too small a mouth, asymmetrical compression chamber, a square horn with parallel walls and flat resonating surfaces. Audiovector has the same problems plus too many folds. The Big Carfrae has the best design in my opinion despite the fact that it’s square and has an asymmetrical exit from compression chamber. I am not an expert like Scottmoose and so I won’t insist that a round horn sounds better than a square and folded one, but for my own listening pleasure I eliminated what I thought was a source of sound distortion. Some argue that plywood is better then fiberglass; I went one better and made the horns from a non resonant metal powder composite of my own design. The baffle rings are made of red oak. The drivers are EX3 minus the back covers. The horn is front firing, side wall and floor reinforced and a bit bigger than Carfrare.
I am not saying that Lowthers are perfect but they go well with my DIY horns, they fit my budget, musical taste and sound perception very nicely.
http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=21150&f=TT_005.jpg
Marek
I heard the drivers in a Hedlund once - I liked the sound and decided to buy a pair. The Hedlunds however have a few flaws in the design: too small a mouth, asymmetrical compression chamber, a square horn with parallel walls and flat resonating surfaces. Audiovector has the same problems plus too many folds. The Big Carfrae has the best design in my opinion despite the fact that it’s square and has an asymmetrical exit from compression chamber. I am not an expert like Scottmoose and so I won’t insist that a round horn sounds better than a square and folded one, but for my own listening pleasure I eliminated what I thought was a source of sound distortion. Some argue that plywood is better then fiberglass; I went one better and made the horns from a non resonant metal powder composite of my own design. The baffle rings are made of red oak. The drivers are EX3 minus the back covers. The horn is front firing, side wall and floor reinforced and a bit bigger than Carfrare.
I am not saying that Lowthers are perfect but they go well with my DIY horns, they fit my budget, musical taste and sound perception very nicely.
http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=21150&f=TT_005.jpg
Marek
el´Ol,
"hm.
When it only makes 60Hz then it is not much better than your Lure. I simulated it according to Hobby Hifi`s measured TSPs of the Ciare HX201, should work, but only 80Hz. In my case the horn only has to compensate up to 200Hz, since the midrange rise is compensated by the off-axis use. Would you think it is possible to develop a horn that goes really low? And would this have a reasonable size?"
The LURE goes down to 45 Hz with the DDD, tell me your simulations the Cx201 must go down to 40 Hz. Email direct
Low in living rooms is 35 Hz,
do you look at the alphorn?, the smallest back loaded bass horn
the saxophon gets 35 Hz, look the measurements.
marekst,
do you have any not smooth measurements and what happens at 500 Hz,
if the horn works over 250 Hz it sounds coloured,
look my last post the Lowther measurement by AER,
below 800 Hz a Lowther needs help, but you can´t get it by
a bass horn!!
"hm.
When it only makes 60Hz then it is not much better than your Lure. I simulated it according to Hobby Hifi`s measured TSPs of the Ciare HX201, should work, but only 80Hz. In my case the horn only has to compensate up to 200Hz, since the midrange rise is compensated by the off-axis use. Would you think it is possible to develop a horn that goes really low? And would this have a reasonable size?"
The LURE goes down to 45 Hz with the DDD, tell me your simulations the Cx201 must go down to 40 Hz. Email direct
Low in living rooms is 35 Hz,
do you look at the alphorn?, the smallest back loaded bass horn
the saxophon gets 35 Hz, look the measurements.
marekst,
do you have any not smooth measurements and what happens at 500 Hz,
if the horn works over 250 Hz it sounds coloured,
look my last post the Lowther measurement by AER,
below 800 Hz a Lowther needs help, but you can´t get it by
a bass horn!!
ronc said:
Hi Ron
I know what you mean. I tend to use Martin's measurements when designing anything for them -at least I know I can trust them.
The claimed figures simply don't add up. TC had a point. Being brutally honest, the Lowthers / AERs are ultimately far more detailed (leaving the response peaks aside), but they're hellish expensive and the build quality of the former at least is patchy. Bit like comparing a TVR to a BMW I suppose. Fostex do bass better than either though -especially the 208ESigma.
Being brutally honest, the Lowthers / AERs are ultimately far more detailed (leaving the response peaks aside), but they're hellish expensive and the build quality of the former at least is patchy
I totally agree as the Lowthers i have heard were very good, never heard an AER.
The problem that has me in doubt about design is if a stated parameter is so far off then whats the range of deviation on a Bell curve. If you design for nominal and there is a range in deviation thats great then you will never find an acceptable balance in making the same cab, unless you design each cab for a given drivers performance.
ron
I totally agree as the Lowthers i have heard were very good, never heard an AER.
The problem that has me in doubt about design is if a stated parameter is so far off then whats the range of deviation on a Bell curve. If you design for nominal and there is a range in deviation thats great then you will never find an acceptable balance in making the same cab, unless you design each cab for a given drivers performance.
ron
"unknown" plan...
the Lowther "Ace". In fact look similar to any conical TL, except with asymetrical paths, and a very easy build indeed. (and the fact that it is folded into itself) vertical up firing, so some sorth of reflector may be needed to get the sound out into the room.
My point, or rather the one I was trying to make, was that until you hear something for yourself it is easy to criticize. Can I afford Lowthers or AERs? nope. Do I hold someything against those that can? not at all. And I haven't heard my friend's Lowthers. So I cannot summarily discount them.
And shouldn't we all (or those of us who try to build loudspeakers), find a way to do some basic measurements to verify the factory TS specs of the particular drivers?
the Lowther "Ace". In fact look similar to any conical TL, except with asymetrical paths, and a very easy build indeed. (and the fact that it is folded into itself) vertical up firing, so some sorth of reflector may be needed to get the sound out into the room.
My point, or rather the one I was trying to make, was that until you hear something for yourself it is easy to criticize. Can I afford Lowthers or AERs? nope. Do I hold someything against those that can? not at all. And I haven't heard my friend's Lowthers. So I cannot summarily discount them.
And shouldn't we all (or those of us who try to build loudspeakers), find a way to do some basic measurements to verify the factory TS specs of the particular drivers?
hm,
I am not crazy about acoustical measurements. You misinterpreted them anyway - I remember your imaginary 38 Hz response from 3” driver…
The uneven response is a small disadvantage of BLH but it sounds better than it looks on graph and sounds better than I expected. Nothing bad happens at 500 Hz, there is a small rise at about 600 and up. The coloration doesn’t bother me.
I do not know why, but below 800 Hz things are going quite well all the way down to 50 Hz. Maybe my Lowther got help from less folded horn. Maybe because absorbing material in my listening room was deliberately chosen for increased effectiveness around 2 kHz? Actually, I build and tuned the whole room specifically to compliment the sound of the horns. Also I tuned the horn with wool stuffing.
Below 50 Hz response drops like a rock and there is practically nothing below 40 Hz, but I do not need a sub. I don’t here much above 12 kHz so I do not care that there is not much response there either. With all those problems I like the sound of my horns more than anything I ever heard. To somebody else they may sound colored, but when it comes to taste, there is not discussion.
Marek
hm,
Do you remember this response “Hmm. Novel, that. Well, OK, not novel, but certainly not common. I'll take the 38Hz with about a ton of salt, but it's a neat thing, isn't it.”
My reaction was less polite and if I remember correctly, I said to myself: “where in the **** does that mor** see 38 Hz.” I am glad you have a better graph now.
Marek
Do you remember this response “Hmm. Novel, that. Well, OK, not novel, but certainly not common. I'll take the 38Hz with about a ton of salt, but it's a neat thing, isn't it.”
My reaction was less polite and if I remember correctly, I said to myself: “where in the **** does that mor** see 38 Hz.” I am glad you have a better graph now.
Marek
ronc said:
I've been through a pile of Lowthers, all of them from Lowther
USA, and the consistency has been quite good, whether Jon
vets them or Lowther has gotten more consistent.
And the AER is indeed a Lowther "the way a German would make
it!", and is remarkable in its quality of detail.
If you can afford one.
I wasn't a big lowther fan not so long ago.
Things have changed i guess
Here's my bigfunhorns. With proper room and corner loading they can produce real bass and sound mervalous.
On the picture, the phase plugs are still there but I don't use them anymore. The drivers sound so much better without them when used in angle like that.
One of the reason I wasn't a fan of lowthers was mostly because of the use of SET tube amplifier (45 2a3 ...) . I won't start a debat over that but I tried different amplifier and found a very good match with lm3886t chips amplifier (gainclones) and a pair of tx-102 transformer as preamplifier.
If you want bass with this kind of drivers you need huge horn, there is no way around with only 1mm of xmax. It's hard to figure from the picture but the depth is 36"
Things have changed i guess
Here's my bigfunhorns. With proper room and corner loading they can produce real bass and sound mervalous.
On the picture, the phase plugs are still there but I don't use them anymore. The drivers sound so much better without them when used in angle like that.
One of the reason I wasn't a fan of lowthers was mostly because of the use of SET tube amplifier (45 2a3 ...) . I won't start a debat over that but I tried different amplifier and found a very good match with lm3886t chips amplifier (gainclones) and a pair of tx-102 transformer as preamplifier.
If you want bass with this kind of drivers you need huge horn, there is no way around with only 1mm of xmax. It's hard to figure from the picture but the depth is 36"
If you want bass with this kind of drivers you need huge horn, there is no way around with only 1mm of xmax. It's hard to figure from the picture but the depth is 36"
Not really, if its engineered correctly then the primary LF response is a TL action, the roll in of the horn action is a higher freqency action.
ron
Not really, if its engineered correctly then the primary LF response is a TL action, the roll in of the horn action is a higher freqency action.
ron
Give me an actual T/S performance /room sixe/amp system and i can run it thru my programming. I see no problem with Lowther drivers as as Qts goes lower the design parameteters change. The lowest Qts i design around is .18. The balance of peformance is around x_max at a given displacement at6 a given frequency.
What i cnstantstly see is a non optimized design around a given stated parameter of performance value. To extract the potential of what i consider a slighter Qts value driver , it requires very little effort.
You have to look at it as as a given displacement at a given volume with a given resonance range. Now anything above 240 Hz , i cant be responsible for(<lawyers note!)!. I know this may sound like an inane statment, but i am very tired of being sued by by shyster Lawyers for any actions that i produce.
ron
(the world needs less lawyers and more engineers)
What i cnstantstly see is a non optimized design around a given stated parameter of performance value. To extract the potential of what i consider a slighter Qts value driver , it requires very little effort.
You have to look at it as as a given displacement at a given volume with a given resonance range. Now anything above 240 Hz , i cant be responsible for(<lawyers note!)!. I know this may sound like an inane statment, but i am very tired of being sued by by shyster Lawyers for any actions that i produce.
ron
(the world needs less lawyers and more engineers)
I'd like to understand this concept more.
I have difficulty understanding how a tl can raise the efficiency of the lower octaves to match the rising curve of the lowther.
Also, how can a driver with a very low xmax of 1 mm can actually move anough air to produce 40hz considering is 8" at volume near 120db.
The horn act as a pressure/movement converter, this meen with proper sealing it act as a compression driver. Is it the case with a tl ?
What would be the resulting efficiency, I measured 103db / 1w at my listening position.
I hope you don't use filter to lower the higher octaves of the lowther to match the lowers ones, i think it that case it's just a bad selection of driver for the enclosure that need heavy compensations.
I've read some reviews of lowthers in TL and bass reflex and all of them mention the need of a subwoofer for real usable bass. I'm guessing that those cabinets has been made with compromised dimensions if you tell me that it's possible to get real bass in TL.
BTW, I heard often comments about back loaded horn having some audible delais in bass and a kind of disconnection. Theses peoples has come home and didn't heard such think in the bigfunhorn corner loaded.
I have difficulty understanding how a tl can raise the efficiency of the lower octaves to match the rising curve of the lowther.
Also, how can a driver with a very low xmax of 1 mm can actually move anough air to produce 40hz considering is 8" at volume near 120db.
The horn act as a pressure/movement converter, this meen with proper sealing it act as a compression driver. Is it the case with a tl ?
What would be the resulting efficiency, I measured 103db / 1w at my listening position.
I hope you don't use filter to lower the higher octaves of the lowther to match the lowers ones, i think it that case it's just a bad selection of driver for the enclosure that need heavy compensations.
I've read some reviews of lowthers in TL and bass reflex and all of them mention the need of a subwoofer for real usable bass. I'm guessing that those cabinets has been made with compromised dimensions if you tell me that it's possible to get real bass in TL.
BTW, I heard often comments about back loaded horn having some audible delais in bass and a kind of disconnection. Theses peoples has come home and didn't heard such think in the bigfunhorn corner loaded.
Ouch. No, Ron does not use filters. His designs such as Dallas, Austin et al exhibit probably the most advanced hybrid horn engineering in the world -far more so than, say, the Big Fun horn (which as a design I'm not much of a fan of). So you're talking to one of the top engineers in this aspect of DIY audio at present.
Thing is, all domestic horn designs use some QW (nee 'TL') action to support the LF. A 40Hz design using full horn action would be about the size of a garage. What I imagine Ron's referring to is balancing the transition between QW and horn action, which is one of the harder aspects of domestic hybrid horn design.
Generally, you can get very decent LF out of a Lowther in a resonant cabinet like an MLTL -have a look at Martin King's site if you haven't already: www.quarter-wave.com SPLs are more restricted though due to excursion in the midbass (max always being an octave above Fc). They'll tend to need a BSC circuit in place if pulled out into the room due to edge diffraction, but that applies to all drivers in slim enclosures, not just Lowthers, or FR units for that matter. Some series resistance can be added if a high DF amp is used; if it's a low DF or current source, then none is necessary.
Hopes some of that's of use
Best
Scott
Thing is, all domestic horn designs use some QW (nee 'TL') action to support the LF. A 40Hz design using full horn action would be about the size of a garage. What I imagine Ron's referring to is balancing the transition between QW and horn action, which is one of the harder aspects of domestic hybrid horn design.
Generally, you can get very decent LF out of a Lowther in a resonant cabinet like an MLTL -have a look at Martin King's site if you haven't already: www.quarter-wave.com SPLs are more restricted though due to excursion in the midbass (max always being an octave above Fc). They'll tend to need a BSC circuit in place if pulled out into the room due to edge diffraction, but that applies to all drivers in slim enclosures, not just Lowthers, or FR units for that matter. Some series resistance can be added if a high DF amp is used; if it's a low DF or current source, then none is necessary.
Hopes some of that's of use
Best
Scott
Hello gents,
I have a pair of EX3s that I bought on ebay. I am looking for a cabinet to put them into and Scottmoose suggested the Fostex 208e sigma horn (variant on the Nagaoka D-58). The T/S parameters I was using were those measured for the DX-3 on MJK's site. It looks interesting as do the frugal-horn spawn but....I have still been hesitating before embarking on the actual build (last set of accumulated WAF points will be gone after one more set of speakers) and was wondering what you might suggest as an ideal cabinet?
I am using a monica 2 - Simple pre-amp from nuuk - charlize - FE207e MLTLs in the main system. My room is 5m long, 4m wide and 2.6m high.
Secondary system is AN8S in home brew 19litre slot ported boxes + cheapo sealed sub rolling in at 90Hz.
Any suggestions would be most welcome.
Peter
I have a pair of EX3s that I bought on ebay. I am looking for a cabinet to put them into and Scottmoose suggested the Fostex 208e sigma horn (variant on the Nagaoka D-58). The T/S parameters I was using were those measured for the DX-3 on MJK's site. It looks interesting as do the frugal-horn spawn but....I have still been hesitating before embarking on the actual build (last set of accumulated WAF points will be gone after one more set of speakers) and was wondering what you might suggest as an ideal cabinet?
I am using a monica 2 - Simple pre-amp from nuuk - charlize - FE207e MLTLs in the main system. My room is 5m long, 4m wide and 2.6m high.
Secondary system is AN8S in home brew 19litre slot ported boxes + cheapo sealed sub rolling in at 90Hz.
Any suggestions would be most welcome.
Peter
One custom designed for them is the short answer. OK, that's not much help, so:
The Fostex cab should be an adequate fudge from the quick sim I ran, and certainly better than a lot. A dedicated Lowther horn is something I keep meaning to look into, but for much the same reasons as Ron, it's usually been pushed to the back-burner.
However, as Nelson indicates that the consistancy has improved in his experience, I'll look into it properly again. One thing I can promise though -it won't be small. As a rule, I don't like tractix for bass-horn duties. It's great for mids etc., but low down? Not for me. I prefer a hyperbolic variation.
BTW -the 208ESigma enclosure is not a variation of the Nagaoka D-58 AFAIK. The 206ES-R cabinet OTOH certainly owes something to that enclosure.
Scott
The Fostex cab should be an adequate fudge from the quick sim I ran, and certainly better than a lot. A dedicated Lowther horn is something I keep meaning to look into, but for much the same reasons as Ron, it's usually been pushed to the back-burner.
However, as Nelson indicates that the consistancy has improved in his experience, I'll look into it properly again. One thing I can promise though -it won't be small.
As a rule, I don't like tractix for bass-horn duties. It's great for mids etc., but low down? Not for me. I prefer a hyperbolic variation. BTW -the 208ESigma enclosure is not a variation of the Nagaoka D-58 AFAIK. The 206ES-R cabinet OTOH certainly owes something to that enclosure.
Scott
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