Hello,
here my floorstanding solution,
for different 3" driver
http://www.hm-moreart.de/24.htm
measurement and free plan
here my floorstanding solution,
for different 3" driver
http://www.hm-moreart.de/24.htm
measurement and free plan
Attachments
How about Zaphs Hi-Vi B3S single driver system?
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker18.html
However, you will need to mate it with a subwoofer.
For the W3-871S, how about the TABQ
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88787
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker18.html
However, you will need to mate it with a subwoofer.
For the W3-871S, how about the TABQ
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88787
It is possible to achieve great and accurate sound from a three-inch (generally a 53 mm cone).
If quality is the goal, don't ignore the Jordan. Also, if you can find the original TB W3-881S, then there is a modification published by AudioXpress that is worthwhile.
There is also a modification for the replacement TB W3-881SD. The Canadian company Voxium Inc. has been working with this transducer modification and would have to release the information before the SD would be a possibility.
Also, I consider all 53 mm cone transducers as extended range and not as full range. When you either port or use one of the new transmission line designs, while the simulator may suggest significant bass output, attempts to verify the designs have shown vent or aperture output as much as 20 dB less than the design program indicates.
Lastly, very small diameter cone transducers are affected more by boundary layer effects than larger diameter cones. You can create response aberrations with enclosure dimensions and designs that are beyond baffle edge problems.
Just something to keep in mind is that no simulator or design program can account for every variable. Like everything else, they have limits.
Best,
Mark
If quality is the goal, don't ignore the Jordan. Also, if you can find the original TB W3-881S, then there is a modification published by AudioXpress that is worthwhile.
There is also a modification for the replacement TB W3-881SD. The Canadian company Voxium Inc. has been working with this transducer modification and would have to release the information before the SD would be a possibility.
Also, I consider all 53 mm cone transducers as extended range and not as full range. When you either port or use one of the new transmission line designs, while the simulator may suggest significant bass output, attempts to verify the designs have shown vent or aperture output as much as 20 dB less than the design program indicates.
Lastly, very small diameter cone transducers are affected more by boundary layer effects than larger diameter cones. You can create response aberrations with enclosure dimensions and designs that are beyond baffle edge problems.
Just something to keep in mind is that no simulator or design program can account for every variable. Like everything else, they have limits.
Best,
Mark
GM & I have done monster horns for the FF85K -they're genuine horns, based on Leach's math, one of the assumptions of which is a desire for absolute maximum gain and to blazes with anything else. This one stays within linear excursion to 60Hz. Greg's most refined version has about 10db more gain & has an upper cut-off about 120Hz lower.
Bit of fun really. I doubt anyone would be mad enough to build them -too hugeous for most people: 12.5 square foot mouths (reduced by a factor of 8 as they're for corner loading), ~300in long.
Not the most practical then. But they do give an idea of what a proper BLH is capable of, once size constraints are removed, and you can actually let rip with the classic BLH math, rather than hybrid QW/horn loading.
Bit of fun really. I doubt anyone would be mad enough to build them -too hugeous for most people: 12.5 square foot mouths (reduced by a factor of 8 as they're for corner loading), ~300in long.
Not the most practical then. But they do give an idea of what a proper BLH is capable of, once size constraints are removed, and you can actually let rip with the classic BLH math, rather than hybrid QW/horn loading.Attachments
Scott,
OK, the two of you belong in padded cells, like most of us. We'll meet more of our ilk there. IIRC it was WE engineers Wente and Thuras who once designed a horn as the roof of a dance palace, with the driver located in the next building. A fleamuscle amp drove the wee thingy and it must have ROCKED.
Pit
OK, the two of you belong in padded cells, like most of us. We'll meet more of our ilk there. IIRC it was WE engineers Wente and Thuras who once designed a horn as the roof of a dance palace, with the driver located in the next building. A fleamuscle amp drove the wee thingy and it must have ROCKED.
Pit
What about something more reasonably sized for the FF85? They look like awesome drivers to work with, so how about BiBs for them or maybe a nice double mouthed BVR?
Scott, I know you like to make "reasonable" and "all out" versions of the dims for everything; one would think that even "all out" the line length of an FF85 BiB would be doable, but I'm guessing that the mouth may still be pretty large.
If a tall, slim cab could be built that would let the FF85 run strong to 80Hz or less, then they could integrate really nicely with a sub.
Kensai
Scott, I know you like to make "reasonable" and "all out" versions of the dims for everything; one would think that even "all out" the line length of an FF85 BiB would be doable, but I'm guessing that the mouth may still be pretty large.
If a tall, slim cab could be built that would let the FF85 run strong to 80Hz or less, then they could integrate really nicely with a sub.
Kensai
The FF85 would be a good candidate.
I am making a sample of the TABAQ for MLTL but
it's my guess that a Fostex would be a better
candidate for folding and designing.
This just my take on it, but a 4 in. driver like the
FE127e which already has a reference project seems
like the downsize limit for real sound reproduction.
I screwed an 871 to board with a hole in it and that
was the best I've gotten to date. I put one in a PVC
pipe of 3 " diameter at the alpha tl line length of
100 cm (IIRC) and I didn't think much of that.
Perhaps a big supra baffle with folded BLH would
be workable for the 871 but a fresh start on a
Fostex would be my pick.
I am making a sample of the TABAQ for MLTL but
it's my guess that a Fostex would be a better
candidate for folding and designing.
This just my take on it, but a 4 in. driver like the
FE127e which already has a reference project seems
like the downsize limit for real sound reproduction.
I screwed an 871 to board with a hole in it and that
was the best I've gotten to date. I put one in a PVC
pipe of 3 " diameter at the alpha tl line length of
100 cm (IIRC) and I didn't think much of that.
Perhaps a big supra baffle with folded BLH would
be workable for the 871 but a fresh start on a
Fostex would be my pick.
The FF85K looks a lovely unit to me, but with an Fs of 122Hz, it's not going to do LF in anything simple. The only way you can get the kind of extension shown on the above plot is with a full-on no-compromise hypex horn like that.
Having said that, I don't think anyone would expect it to go particularly low in a realistic cabinet -it's only a 3in cone after all. We can load it down to a higher figure to XO to a pair of woofers easily enough if that's any use? A reduced version of Aiko should work fine. Whatever we'd do, it'd need to be (relatively) big due to the small cone if you want it to make much noise.
Having said that, I don't think anyone would expect it to go particularly low in a realistic cabinet -it's only a 3in cone after all. We can load it down to a higher figure to XO to a pair of woofers easily enough if that's any use? A reduced version of Aiko should work fine. Whatever we'd do, it'd need to be (relatively) big due to the small cone if you want it to make much noise.
I have not been keeping up with the jargon apparently. While the talk about stroke is good jargon, I believe it is important to clarify that xmax and suspension max are different. Exceed xmax and the distortion begins to slowly rise. Exceed suspension max and distortion rises preceptiously.
Also, if rear horn loading is the choice for enclosure, then the Jordan becomes less of an option. Also, horn loading will eliminate the possibility of a shelf mount option. Horns as big as a roof don't fit well on the typical bookshelf.
Lastly for this post, I would state that fs of 120 Hz is impossible to work with in a three-inch driver, even with a rear horn loading. The rear horns just don't compression load enough to overcome the impedence mismatch between air and the small diameter diaphragm at low frequencies.
If a goal is to be sensible and practical, that would tend to favor a woofer or subwoofer to augment the bass.
Mark
Also, if rear horn loading is the choice for enclosure, then the Jordan becomes less of an option. Also, horn loading will eliminate the possibility of a shelf mount option. Horns as big as a roof don't fit well on the typical bookshelf.
Lastly for this post, I would state that fs of 120 Hz is impossible to work with in a three-inch driver, even with a rear horn loading. The rear horns just don't compression load enough to overcome the impedence mismatch between air and the small diameter diaphragm at low frequencies.
If a goal is to be sensible and practical, that would tend to favor a woofer or subwoofer to augment the bass.
Mark
MarkMcK said:
Amen.
I don't see why not. You can make a horn work with most any dynamic driver. I see nothing in the JXR6 that suggests that they couldn't be BLH loaded effectively. I agree 100% though re giganic, full-scale horns, and I don't think anyone was seriously suggesting that they are a viable option. Just GM & me having a bit of fun to illustrate what a real BLH, with a 300in path & initially very slow hypex expansion rather than a QW / horn hybrid is actually capable of. Ditto that these units really do need LF support. Anything with an Fs of over 70Hz needs partnering with a sub in any realistically proportioned cabinet IMO.
I would think the point of a 3" driver is to build something small... they are never going to do bass... if you can live with the larger box needed to even attempt to get bass out of the driver then a larger driver (ie FE127) can do a better job in a smaller box (other than that the FE127 is quite a bit more money than a typical 3").
I haven't heard the Fostex 3" (maybe i'll get FF85, and FE8x with my next Fostex order), but of the (available) usual suspects (TB/HiVi/Aura) i like the concave coned NS3 the best.
It works in a small sealed enclosure (ref Illusus) that mates quite well with a sub and Gregg the Geek has them in a larger BR series XOed to an ApexJr/Audax budget tweeter and reports really good results.
I do think there is room to investigate a bit of cone treatment to address some slight issues in the top.
dave
I haven't heard the Fostex 3" (maybe i'll get FF85, and FE8x with my next Fostex order), but of the (available) usual suspects (TB/HiVi/Aura) i like the concave coned NS3 the best.
It works in a small sealed enclosure (ref Illusus) that mates quite well with a sub and Gregg the Geek has them in a larger BR series XOed to an ApexJr/Audax budget tweeter and reports really good results.
I do think there is room to investigate a bit of cone treatment to address some slight issues in the top.
dave
I heard the Illusus sealed design (tiny, tiny box) mated up with Dave's 8" subwoofer. Sounded pretty darn nice. The NS3 has low sensitivity (under 80db) and rolls off above 15k. Other than that is a quite desirable. Smoother sounding than the TB and Fostex units to my ears.
Mark's suggestion of the Jordan got me looking around and finding that Ted is only offering the 2" and 6" models on his website. Also, no North American distributor unless I missed something.
Mark's suggestion of the Jordan got me looking around and finding that Ted is only offering the 2" and 6" models on his website. Also, no North American distributor unless I missed something.
Timn8ter said:
cheap Pioneer 10" sub actually.
Hoffman's Iron law dictates the LOW sensitivity. Similar driver that only goes to ~200 Hz is way more efficient.
North American distributor is in Hong Kong. Jordan only has the JXr6 & the JX92 at the moment -- noone would build his other drivers for him. The JXr6 looks to be a nice mid-tweeter but is going to be a strtch as a FR
dave
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