cdwitmer said:
I have no idea, not really interested.
But I do recognize that if you stopped pumping the Feastrix thread it would have fallen off the radar years ago. When a person comes on a forum and posts almost exclusively about one product it really appears as if that person is marketing the product, I don't know why DIYaudio tolerates this behavior.
MJK said:
Precisely.
MJK said:
Oh, so you are clairvoyant after all. Well, I guess I'll just have to take that interpretation on your authority.
MJK said:
Hey, you're entitled to your opinion, however jaundiced it may be.
And feel free to reply again if you want to "pump the Feastrex thread" some more. But to state the obvious, nobody is forcing anybody to come to this thread and read it. Feastrex can fall off anyone's radar screen anytime they want it to.
NOTA BENE -- I replied to Gelatomonster's query. If that constitutes "pumping" to bring the thread to the top, then I'm guilty as charged.
Sheesh. Male menopause?
-- Chris
cdwitmer said:
Read dpaws post again, it is really right on the money with respect to Feastrix. That is what you should be considering if you want to continue shilling these drivers. If all you can do is respond in the manner above then it just confirms there is nothing supportive behind the hype. You can continue to hurl insults when the questions make you uncomfortable, it does not really matter, and only exposes the lack of factual information about Feastrix drivers. Why not provide some useful information to help resolve dpaws insightful observations?
My problem with this tread is that it is absolutely inappropriate for this forum. The fast majority of the posters here are trying to get decent sound on a shoestring. You see lots of traffic about $10-20 drivers and Fostex FE series is near top end. Kilobuck drivers are so far removed from the corporate reality as to be irrelevant. Yes, I have no idea what is going through cdwitmer's mind, but the post sure smacks of a shill.
Bob
Bob
Bob Brines said:
I'm afraid I don't agree, the Feastrex is a "full range" driver and in the much lamented absence of commercial enclosure options one is forced to consider dusting off the chopsaw.
I have nothing but respect for all who achieve a driver/enclosure synergy that punches beyond it's weight but please don't assume that all members have a limited budget...
If a Feastrex and a silver coiled Fostex driver are the present choice for our Mr Pass then may I ask who are you to suggest his contributions are inappropriate?
DIY doesn't necessarily mean poverty, it's an oppurtunity for all to experiment and share their understand about what loudspeakers are all about - regardless of their nett disposible incomes.
Jeez guys, give it a break. This is the entertainment industry.
Yes, Chris is perhaps overly enthusiastic, but he is entertaining.
With regards to the measurement / listening in enclosure design,
both have their rightful place. I've heard plenty of systems that
measured well but didn't quite cut it, and plenty that didn't measure
so well but sounded good.
Terry Cain cranked out some good sounding stuff, and as far as I
know, he didn't measure a thing and had no predictive design powers,
he just simply built lots of stuff and listened to it.
I can appreciate that because I like to build lots of stuff, although I
also measure it as part of the process.
BTW, while I like Fostex products, my favorites are Lowther and
Feastrex, currently the PM5A and D9nf respectively.
Yes, Chris is perhaps overly enthusiastic, but he is entertaining.
With regards to the measurement / listening in enclosure design,
both have their rightful place. I've heard plenty of systems that
measured well but didn't quite cut it, and plenty that didn't measure
so well but sounded good.
Terry Cain cranked out some good sounding stuff, and as far as I
know, he didn't measure a thing and had no predictive design powers,
he just simply built lots of stuff and listened to it.
I can appreciate that because I like to build lots of stuff, although I
also measure it as part of the process.
BTW, while I like Fostex products, my favorites are Lowther and
Feastrex, currently the PM5A and D9nf respectively.
I also would echo that DIY audio is not about "decent sound on a shoestring". Most folks out here have their own personal "price point" for any given project, as this is about maintaining a balance of all of the priorities in their life. This is just logical and smart thinking.
It's also about the hobby aspect... sure, we can all take a (reasonable) price point and buy something that makes sound, or we can take the funds allocated and invest time to design, build or just implement what someone else out here did and shared. The sky is the limit here.... just that it's not the same (limit) for everyone.
In the past 4+ decades, I've seen hundreds of pieces of DIY gear that never amounted to the sum of it's parts (IMHO) but the owner was satisfied, happy and enjoyed the experience, so who am I to tell them they're wrong? I've also seen the opposite where the end results exceeded what was invested and some really wonderful pieces of handcrafted gear have been designed and built.
As for Feastrex, or any other semi-controversial product, if there's a community that maintains interest and input from the forum to support it, then who should judge whether it belongs here or not?
I've seen enough posts about the FE126e driver to last a few lifetimes now... and I can't possibly believe that each new design is much better than the last, yet there's a large following for this driver and the endless flood of designs for it. Bottom line, it's a cheap mass produced driver that does very well at it's price point, and many like it for what it offers... I have a pair as well.
Hopefully there's enough space out here for everyone's DIY limits... if anyone doesn't like the posts... don't read them, find something else.
Regards, KM
It's also about the hobby aspect... sure, we can all take a (reasonable) price point and buy something that makes sound, or we can take the funds allocated and invest time to design, build or just implement what someone else out here did and shared. The sky is the limit here.... just that it's not the same (limit) for everyone.
In the past 4+ decades, I've seen hundreds of pieces of DIY gear that never amounted to the sum of it's parts (IMHO) but the owner was satisfied, happy and enjoyed the experience, so who am I to tell them they're wrong? I've also seen the opposite where the end results exceeded what was invested and some really wonderful pieces of handcrafted gear have been designed and built.
As for Feastrex, or any other semi-controversial product, if there's a community that maintains interest and input from the forum to support it, then who should judge whether it belongs here or not?
I've seen enough posts about the FE126e driver to last a few lifetimes now... and I can't possibly believe that each new design is much better than the last, yet there's a large following for this driver and the endless flood of designs for it. Bottom line, it's a cheap mass produced driver that does very well at it's price point, and many like it for what it offers... I have a pair as well.
Hopefully there's enough space out here for everyone's DIY limits... if anyone doesn't like the posts... don't read them, find something else.
Regards, KM
MJK said:
Where have I disagreed with or rejected anything written in that post?
MJK said:
Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion, however jaundiced it may be -- jaundiced and logically defective.
MJK said:
And if that's how you choose to respond is just confirms that to the jaundiced eye everything appears yellow. A shill is an associate of a seller who pretends no association and presents himself as an enthusiastic customer in order to promote sales. Since you have already reached your own conclusion, my denial of an association would be taken by you as further "proof" that I'm a shill -- after all, by definition that's what a shill does. If I was simply a sock puppet for Feastrex then yes, it would be reasonable to see my response to you as confirming "there is nothing supportive behind the hype." (It would also logically follow that happy Feastrex users and fans of the drivers' sound are idiots, since there is nothing behind the hype.) On the other hand, if you are incorrect in your assumptions about what motivates me, then my response takes on a different meaning. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar . . .
MJK said:
You call me a shill, and somehow I'm the one hurling insults by pointing out your jaundiced eye. Sweet . . .
MJK said:
Well, if I was a shill, I would be in a position to provide the sort of information you want. Unfortunately, I don't even use Feastrex drivers. It's a little hard to measure something you don't have in your possession . . .
-- Chris
Feastrex Fostex... lets call the whole thing off...
Design by Chop Saw... yes, one of my favs.
DIY does not mean Poverty.
For me, I was unable to BUY the kind of quality that I could learn to build, be it boxes for speakers or electronics for playback.
But then I have been a solder slinger for some 55 years... Yea I' 65.
To me it just makes sense to build your own stuff. I like what I build!
Budget is not usually a big concern unless its tax time.
It's about entertainment as Nelson put it.
Enjoy the fun... time is short.
Design by Chop Saw... yes, one of my favs.
DIY does not mean Poverty.
For me, I was unable to BUY the kind of quality that I could learn to build, be it boxes for speakers or electronics for playback.
But then I have been a solder slinger for some 55 years... Yea I' 65.
To me it just makes sense to build your own stuff. I like what I build!
Budget is not usually a big concern unless its tax time.
It's about entertainment as Nelson put it.
Enjoy the fun... time is short.
Nelson Pass said:Jeez guys, give it a break. This is the entertainment industry.
Yes, Chris is perhaps overly enthusiastic, but he is entertaining.
With regards to the measurement / listening in enclosure design,
both have their rightful place. I've heard plenty of systems that
measured well but didn't quite cut it, and plenty that didn't measure
so well but sounded good.
Terry Cain cranked out some good sounding stuff, and as far as I
know, he didn't measure a thing and had no predictive design powers,
he just simply built lots of stuff and listened to it.
I can appreciate that because I like to build lots of stuff, although I
also measure it as part of the process.
BTW, while I like Fostex products, my favorites are Lowther and
Feastrex, currently the PM5A and D9nf respectively.
Sorry for the delayed response. Annabelle is no longer with us. Feel free to read my public note about her on Facebook.
Yeah. Terry Cain, (for those of you unaware) was my mentor for four years, beginning almost eight years ago. He was also a controversial figure in his day regarding his reliance on only cut and try techniques.
Terry's work withstood immense doubt, criticism, and even mild hatred from several members of the number cruncher camp at audio asylum and other outlets. these sentiments were deep set and are probably still being extended this day upon me as the duckling fall straight down from the nest on their first attempt to fly. (Of course, Terry was not nearly so diplomatic in approach to debate as I am...So I tend to prefer to avoid angry debates as of yet, another reason for my delayed response).
All things considered, Terry's processes did actually end up resulting in some very good sounding and commercially successful speaker designs before his life was cut short in an untimely manner. So needless to say, I have strong roots in this embattled camp of speaker design and by now I am more than used to, even encouraged by this type of criticism. I was very sad when he died and I am determined to respectfully see his legacy live on.
Of course, each generation is different and I am probably more amenable than he was to expanding my perspective as a designer by getting even further into the realm of measurements (over the next several years). Measuring is not something that I am completely unfamiliar with, however. Ive used them in order to be able to pinpoint a handful of issues in a few of my designs to good effect, but its just that my ears and my horse sense are MUCH quicker and more effective tools for me to employ at this point in time.
Indeed, the Oniyanmas have left my house only once so far on loan to Joe Cohen for three days back in November, seeking his sage advice about the enclosure's sound. he lauded the sound immensely, and was also able to help pinpoint some areas for refinement. (Those initiatives and many others have been well implimented since). Simply put, he and I feel more than comfortable about what I am asking for the enclosures and he encouraged me even to raise my prices a bit from what my initial estimates were.
Even though the enclosure had commercial promise and I also represented a fresh new face in the industry, the speakers did not make it to CES because of scheduling conflicts with other manufacturers who had teamed up to share a room with The Lotus Group long in advance.
Further, I realized in the end that this decision to not go to CES was by far for the best. Ive decided instead to take the long road in my business, building a strong foundation before trying to overextend myself on this and that marketing initiatives. In the audio business, one has to do alot more than just make great sounding speakers to make alot more great sounding speakers. I'd rather save myself and my customers from the undue growing pains of trying to accomplish all this too fast.
So maybe you can watch my brand over the next several years and I am sure that there will be developments which will make you happy. For now, I'm just doing my best to focus on priority no. 1: to please beyond any reasonable doubt my small but devoted customer base who have been so graciously and proactively seeking me out through word of mouth. And so, with the most immense respect and sincerity to you, thanks for your interest and constructive criticisms.
At this stage, to say much more regarding the "debate" at hand regarding our various speaker design approaches would be further inviting disaster for us all.
Instead, if Terry Cain were still here to tell me to just "go ahead" and reveal the true methods of my secretive speaker design processes to the DIY community at large, he would have forced my hand in pasting this link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhwbxEfy7fg
Cheers y'all, happy belated father's day
-Clark
I guess this thread deserves a bump...
Joe Cohen brought over a pair of D9eII drivers, the "field coil"
versions of my D9nf's, and we were able to enjoy some apples-
to-apples comparisons in my BOB (big open baffle) system.
The D9eII's cost five or six times more than the D9nf's, which were
the most I've ever paid for drivers.
I must say I was really impressed with the improvement, subjectively
and objectively. I said to Joe, "You realize that these aren't actually
5 times better". Perhaps only twice as good.
They were also 3 dB more efficient, and had a flatter response that
did not require equalization.
Because the power supply for the electromagnets was variable, I was
able to run comparative curves with the settings from low to high.
The variation was about 2.5 dB, and the response curve remained the
same except for level.
This puts us to the question of specifically what made the difference.
It doesn't appear to be simply magnet strength.
I suppose the cone assemblies might have been improved in some
unknown way.
The second possibility is that the magnetic circuit apart from the
raw field strength is improved in some way. If so, it was more
dramatic than I would have expected.
Or perhaps three people fooled themselves, as occasionally happens.
In any case, I certainly would have enjoyed more time with them, and
I did briefly consider taking out a loan.
Joe Cohen brought over a pair of D9eII drivers, the "field coil"
versions of my D9nf's, and we were able to enjoy some apples-
to-apples comparisons in my BOB (big open baffle) system.
The D9eII's cost five or six times more than the D9nf's, which were
the most I've ever paid for drivers.
I must say I was really impressed with the improvement, subjectively
and objectively. I said to Joe, "You realize that these aren't actually
5 times better". Perhaps only twice as good.
They were also 3 dB more efficient, and had a flatter response that
did not require equalization.
Because the power supply for the electromagnets was variable, I was
able to run comparative curves with the settings from low to high.
The variation was about 2.5 dB, and the response curve remained the
same except for level.
This puts us to the question of specifically what made the difference.
It doesn't appear to be simply magnet strength.
I suppose the cone assemblies might have been improved in some
unknown way.
The second possibility is that the magnetic circuit apart from the
raw field strength is improved in some way. If so, it was more
dramatic than I would have expected.
Or perhaps three people fooled themselves, as occasionally happens.
In any case, I certainly would have enjoyed more time with them, and
I did briefly consider taking out a loan.
Nelson Pass said:
I did briefly consider taking out a loan.
Thanks for the news, although I sorta wish you hadn't... I was actually building up some savings for once
Interesting for me that the response evened out - suggesting I suppose that the magnet rather than the cone is responsible - I assume that the same cone is used on both. Recalling a conversation with Hal I would expect the top end to be more extended too - I don't suppose you could publish the response graphs side by side?
My only thought re field coils was the extra power supply and thus more wires out from the rack to the speakers. Faced with this domestic dilemma and an equivalent budget I would feel more tempted by the Quad 2905's...
Of course, value is always a subjective matter. In the realm of driver development, as in every field, there is the principle of diminishing returns as you approach the extreme top end of the possible. Achieving twice the performance of the D9nf by any means is a prodigious accomplishment. It is a good thing I didn’t have a pair of the D9e IIIs with urushi coated phosphor bronze frames on hand. Would nine times the cost justify three times the performance? In a world where small percentages of improvement are regarded as a big deal, multiples should be viewed as off the chart.
Nelson why don't you just ask some chinese manufacturer to make a a super field coild driver and then sell it along with a kit for one of you amplifiers? that would certainly end my quest for good audio, that started with a pair of audionirvana drivers. indeed much time ago i mailed the manufacturer and they showed me availability for alnico (now on sale) and neodimium version of the drivers.... maybe they would be glad to go field-coild then Dave can make some painting on the cone and the magic is done....
i'm kidding... don't blame me, i'm veary sad for my audionirvana driver fall on the floor due to the wind from the window pushing my openbaffle experiment too far... one driver is gone...
i'm kidding...
don't blame me, i'm veary sad for my audionirvana driver fall on the floor due to the wind from the window pushing my openbaffle experiment too far... one driver is gone...- Status
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