I've been trying to use the toner/iron method to make pcb's using my HP Laserjet1018 laser printer. The problem is that when i tired to print the paper (used glossy photo paper for INKJET printers) the printing came out very bad and the paper had like a thin transparent layer all torn apart, by the heat i pressume. I've tried many different kinds of paper to do this but only that one worked (using a photocopy, which didn't tear the paper apart). I want to use my own printer but i don't know what paper to use.
Another thing, after ironing the pcb and all, some paper remained strongly sticked to the pcb and i couldn't take it out, not without taking the toner off too...again, what paper should i use?!
Another thing, after ironing the pcb and all, some paper remained strongly sticked to the pcb and i couldn't take it out, not without taking the toner off too...again, what paper should i use?!
Having used the toner method extensively, I will simply say that its reputation far exceeds its accomplishments. Yes, people routinely post pictures of circuit boards they made using transfer paper, but have you ever noticed that the boards look as though they were done by a third-grader with a crayon?
The entire system is flawed from the ground up. It's conceptually simple, but bogs down in the real world due to pressure and temperature problems. Then there are the hairline fractures and pinholes in the toner that let the etchant through. And the need to (at least) double print the image in order to get a sufficient amount of toner on the silly paper...only to run into registration problems from multiple runs through the printer. Etc. Etc. Et-flippin'-cetera.
It's kinda like the old thing about the pig singing--it's not that the pig sings so well, it's that it sings at all.
Screw transfer paper.
I went optical.
Grey
The entire system is flawed from the ground up. It's conceptually simple, but bogs down in the real world due to pressure and temperature problems. Then there are the hairline fractures and pinholes in the toner that let the etchant through. And the need to (at least) double print the image in order to get a sufficient amount of toner on the silly paper...only to run into registration problems from multiple runs through the printer. Etc. Etc. Et-flippin'-cetera.
It's kinda like the old thing about the pig singing--it's not that the pig sings so well, it's that it sings at all.
Screw transfer paper.
I went optical.
Grey
I too have tried the toner method of printing. I have no doubt that you can develop your skill to a point where the method produces passable results. If you are happy to spend weeks experimenting, failing and destroying copper boards
However the photo transfer method is far easier for an occaisional user to perfect (I got it right on my second go) I would even dare to say you can produce pretty amazing work with the same amount of practice that the toner method guys put in to produce useable results... Hope I am not being too controversial
I use an overhead projector to do my exposures and get results I am very hapy with from printer to the point of cleaning the copper in less than 15 minutes.
My advice, go photo resist...
However the photo transfer method is far easier for an occaisional user to perfect (I got it right on my second go) I would even dare to say you can produce pretty amazing work with the same amount of practice that the toner method guys put in to produce useable results... Hope I am not being too controversial
I use an overhead projector to do my exposures and get results I am very hapy with from printer to the point of cleaning the copper in less than 15 minutes.
My advice, go photo resist...
well i have to say that this method is not THE BEST thing but it works well WHEN IT WORKS. I was able to do it a couple of times but that's all. The optic method would be cool if i'd be able to do it at all, i've never seen what's needed to do it around here. BTW, i soaked it in water, didn't work out, the paper remains sticked hard to the pcb
Photo resist student packs can be bought, and come with reasonable instructions.
I typically produce a test strip, basicly I just make a long board with traces of varying sizes, down to a grade or two below the smallest trace on my design, I place this on my print alongside my board design and cut it off my transparency. I expose it in sections on the ohp, at time intervals of 30 seconds. Then I develop it and see what timing produces the best result. This I then use as my exposure time on the real design.
Its not rocket science, but its easy to controll the exposure this way and I can make many boards on the same afternoon all to the same quality level.
Typically I use a student kit once only, they are cheaper to buy than buying the chemicals seperately if your only doing small batches
***Edit*** by the way if you use an ohp, remove the fresnell lense when doing exposures.***
I typically produce a test strip, basicly I just make a long board with traces of varying sizes, down to a grade or two below the smallest trace on my design, I place this on my print alongside my board design and cut it off my transparency. I expose it in sections on the ohp, at time intervals of 30 seconds. Then I develop it and see what timing produces the best result. This I then use as my exposure time on the real design.
Its not rocket science, but its easy to controll the exposure this way and I can make many boards on the same afternoon all to the same quality level.
Typically I use a student kit once only, they are cheaper to buy than buying the chemicals seperately if your only doing small batches
***Edit*** by the way if you use an ohp, remove the fresnell lense when doing exposures.***
hernanstafe,
try thin, glossy paper like that in those 800+ pages catalogues.
Add plenty of dishwashing detergent. Let the paper soak for an hour or more. Brush the paper off (use plastic bristles). You can brush vigorously without scratching the toner, if the toner has been ironed on well.
If paper fibre residues keep sticking to the toner (and only the toner), just leave it where it is, as it probably wont affect the etching process. If the paper sticks to the bare copper (i.e. with no toner in between the copper and the paper), the paper is obviously not suitable for the iron on method.
Better still: forget the toner/iron method. I've tried it once and yes, it works, more or less, if done right, but it's still a pain in the rear.
All you need to process photoresist coated PCBs:
-photoresist coated PCBs (duh)
-printable transparency sheets (even ordinary copier paper works when soaked in salad oil to make it slightly transparent - need I say soak it in oil after printing?)
-sheet of glass (to put on top of and to flatten the transparency sheet during UV exposure)
-face tanner as the UV light source (used 5$ off ebay)
-sodium hydroxide (NaOH, ~10g/l, to dissolve the developed photoresist)
...etch as you're used to.
jpg
try thin, glossy paper like that in those 800+ pages catalogues.
BTW, i soaked it in water, didn't work out, the paper remains sticked hard to the pcb
Add plenty of dishwashing detergent. Let the paper soak for an hour or more. Brush the paper off (use plastic bristles). You can brush vigorously without scratching the toner, if the toner has been ironed on well.
If paper fibre residues keep sticking to the toner (and only the toner), just leave it where it is, as it probably wont affect the etching process. If the paper sticks to the bare copper (i.e. with no toner in between the copper and the paper), the paper is obviously not suitable for the iron on method.
Better still: forget the toner/iron method. I've tried it once and yes, it works, more or less, if done right, but it's still a pain in the rear.
All you need to process photoresist coated PCBs:
-photoresist coated PCBs (duh)
-printable transparency sheets (even ordinary copier paper works when soaked in salad oil to make it slightly transparent - need I say soak it in oil after printing?)
-sheet of glass (to put on top of and to flatten the transparency sheet during UV exposure)
-face tanner as the UV light source (used 5$ off ebay)
-sodium hydroxide (NaOH, ~10g/l, to dissolve the developed photoresist)
...etch as you're used to.
jpg
I went the toner route when I started because I already had a huge pile of double sided 2 oz. FR4 and I didn't want to spend the money on everything involved with a photo setup. The only thing I needed to buy for toner transfer was a $8 pack of photo paper.
I get good results without too much hassle. I don't see myself ever switching to a photo setup as I have a good routine down that works well for me.
It's good enough for SMD work.........
I get good results without too much hassle. I don't see myself ever switching to a photo setup as I have a good routine down that works well for me.
It's good enough for SMD work.........
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I get good results without too much hassle. I don't see myself ever switching to a photo setup as I have a good routine down that works well for me.
I'm with you. Once you find paper that works for you (Jetprint Photo Premium/Laserjet 4 in my case), results are quite good. It does take some practice though. The Jetprint Photo Premium paper (walmart) leaves NO residue with about 10 minutes of soaking in soapy warm water.
GRollins said:Having used the toner method extensively, I will simply say that its reputation far exceeds its accomplishments. Yes, people routinely post pictures of circuit boards they made using transfer paper, but have you ever noticed that the boards look as though they were done by a third-grader with a crayon?
The entire system is flawed from the ground up. It's conceptually simple, but bogs down in the real world due to pressure and temperature problems. Then there are the hairline fractures and pinholes in the toner that let the etchant through. And the need to (at least) double print the image in order to get a sufficient amount of toner on the silly paper...only to run into registration problems from multiple runs through the printer. Etc. Etc. Et-flippin'-cetera.
It's kinda like the old thing about the pig singing--it's not that the pig sings so well, it's that it sings at all.
Screw transfer paper.
I went optical.
Grey
Instead of posting this could have simply said "I had problems with toner transfer because my equipment was not suitable."
If you have pinholes and need to double print the image, then you probably need a better laser printer (not necessarily a more expensive one). That or refill the toner, or set the darkness to max.
Check this video that was posted in another thread: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1780986641521809521&q=PCB&hl=en
Yes if you have the money UV is probably going to get you better results in the end, but it is not so clear cut as you claim. UV also requires an additional chemical, and you cannot print a silkscreen layer with it.
well the photo sensitive pcb's are awfully expensive here, not to mention hard to find (i have to order them by mail...it's a big trouble). Like i said i recently bought a laser printer and i'd really really like to use this method, but it's THE PAPER which is giving me headaches. Like i explained, i used thick glossy inkjet photo paper, the surface feels like...sticky, and when i tried to print it, the thin transparent layer on top of the paper was all torn apart. I tried with regular paper, and with ultrawhite paper, neither of them worked. What i want to know WHAT PAPER SHOULD I USE, glossy, not glossy, for inkjet, laserjet or what, so the printer doesn't damage it when printing, since inkjet glossy paper doesn't seem to like my laser printer.
PS: Printer is HP 1018
PS: Printer is HP 1018
As a side note: An advantage of the photoresist way of PCBing is that you can get sort of a solder resist layer for free.
After etching, the copper that remains is still covered with the photoresist. Sometimes, when I want the PCB to look particularly neat, I do a second exposure, this time covering everything but the solder pads. When I then again develop the PCB in the NaOH (quality PCB material with a good photoresist recipe pays off now, I use Bungard), only the resist over the solder pads dissolves, leaving the rest of the copper covered, protecting it from finger prints and oxidation.
Not a must have, but a nice option.
After etching, the copper that remains is still covered with the photoresist. Sometimes, when I want the PCB to look particularly neat, I do a second exposure, this time covering everything but the solder pads. When I then again develop the PCB in the NaOH (quality PCB material with a good photoresist recipe pays off now, I use Bungard), only the resist over the solder pads dissolves, leaving the rest of the copper covered, protecting it from finger prints and oxidation.
Not a must have, but a nice option.
Yes if you have the money UV is probably going to get you better results in the end
Practically any UV source works well for a hobbyist's needs (in fact, any light source that emits a certain amount of light around 400nm wavelength) and you don't need to spend more than a couple of bucks: a face tanner (with 4 UV tubes) already makes a great exposure unit and can be found really cheap on ebay, but you can go even simpler. In fact, you can even put the PCB out in the sun, if your climate allows.
UV also requires an additional chemical
Yes, NaOH. You can go as easy as dissolving a dishwasher detergent tab in water if you can't find or afford the tiny dose of pure sodium hydroxide, a substance that costs next to nothing - certainly less than glossy inkjet paper - and that you can flush down the drain once it's exhausted. (Granted, the printable transparency sheets don't come for free, either, but, as I mentioned, even oil soaked copier paper can give decent results.)
i recently bought a laser printer and i'd really really like to use this method
You'd need your printer for the photoresist method no less than for the toner/iron procedure, so it's money well spent either way.
What i want to know WHAT PAPER SHOULD I USE
Again, give ordinary catalogue paper (or heavier glossy magazine paper) a try. It costs nothing, has a smooth surface and no coating (like some glossy inkjet papers) that could be sensitive to heat (both in the laser printer and under the flat iron).
photo sensitive pcb's are awfully expensive here, not to mention hard to find
Okay, that's a good reason to look for an alternative. When I say something like "easily to be found", "cheap", "off ebay", I refer to my place on earth. YMMV.
i have to order them by mail
I mailorder 95% of my hobby needs (and save money compared to shop prices). Again, YMMV.
it's a big trouble
And trouble is not what we're looking for in our pastime.
------------
I'm not trying to convert anybody from toner/iron to photoresist (practise whatever gives you the results you want, using the resources at your disposal), I'm just trying to lessen prejudice against the photoresist method (expensive, equipment-intensive, "too chemical"), that may keep people who aren't really getting along with toner/iron from switching to photoresist.
thomas997 said:
Instead of posting this could have simply said "I had problems with toner transfer because my equipment was not suitable."
If you have pinholes and need to double print the image, then you probably need a better laser printer (not necessarily a more expensive one). That or refill the toner, or set the darkness to max.
Check this video that was posted in another thread: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1780986641521809521&q=PCB&hl=en
Yes if you have the money UV is probably going to get you better results in the end, but it is not so clear cut as you claim. UV also requires an additional chemical, and you cannot print a silkscreen layer with it.
Who said anything about UV? I use optical boards that require only visible light and an ordinary 100W light bulb. My only other expenditure was $8 for a piece of 13" x 13", 1/4" plate glass to hold the transparency down against the board. I already had a piece of glass on hand, but it wasn't heavy enough to suit me so I splurged and bought a new one. Yes, the boards are more expensive than the uncoated ones, but for some reason people never seem to get around to adding the cost of the toner transfer paper to the cost of the boards...not to mention the cost of the ruined boards, etc. And time...let's not forget the time wasted.
As for the rest of the post, I'll simply note that the 'it's your fault' tone is sooo typical of apologists for this method. They blame the user, the printer, the brand of paper chosen, the toner, the time of day, the dog next door...everything except the method itself.
For the record, my printer is a Hewlett Packard Laser Jet 2100. The toner is quite full, and every possible control has long since been maxed out. I forget the name of the transfer paper I used, but it's the one sold by both Mouser and Digikey specifically for this purpose. Incidentally, no problems removing the paper in a tap water soak--room temperature, no soap. Of course, half the time part of the toner soaks away with the transfer paper, but naturally that's another thing that "shouldn't happen"...right? Must be the full moon, or perhaps it was the truck that drove by at the wrong moment.
Any system with this many uncontrolled variables is not practical out in the real world.
It's interesting to note that the makers of the transfer paper can't even suggest a printer or toner that work consistently; they say so verbatim in the instructions for using the paper. That should set off alarms in the minds of those wasting their money on this method.
Can you print a board by using the toner transfer method? Yes. Can you get good results? Well...about one out of every ten times, maybe one out of every five times if you're lucky, yes. The rest of the boards are merely tolerable, at best. They're acceptable only because most DIY folk are delerious if their circuit works at all, and could care less if it looks like a spastic, half-blind painter went at a canvas with a squirt gun.
Can you get better results more reliably for the same or less money and faster as well? Yes!
Grey
HINT: It's absurdly time consuming, but you can go over the toner with a resist pen to touch up the transfer. This will improve your results considerably. But then that's not what the toner transfer people claim, is it? They claim miraculous results in minutes.
Ain't so.
Ok guys first of all thanks to everyone for your replies. The optic method to make pcb's is not much popular, you can get pcb's in some places (not in my city) but they're ridicously expensive. In other countries and places it might be more popular and the materials needed might be easier to get, but not here, so the optical method, although is better (i agree there), it's not an option here and now, so i have to figure out the way to use the toner/iron method in the most efficient way possible. I'm gonna try the types of papers you guys mentioned hoping it'll work this time!! I'll inform you about the results as soon as i get them (tonight i hope).
Again, thanks everyone! i hope soon we'll have available the optical method so doing pcb's is a way easier thing.
Cheers!
Again, thanks everyone! i hope soon we'll have available the optical method so doing pcb's is a way easier thing.
Cheers!
half the time part of the toner soaks away with the transfer paper
I wouldn't dare to assume that you haven't paid attention to this, but it's important that the copper be carefully cleaned before ironing on the toner. I found it helpful to use a mild scouring milk that gives the copper a microscopic texture.
How well the toner sticks to the copper is also a function of the toner's physical properties and the amount of heat and pressure applied while ironing. In most of my trials I found that the toner sticked so hard to the copper that it was absolutely impossible to scrape it off with a hard cleaning brush (or even with my fingernails).
That's why I do employ the toner/iron method all the time - to apply silk screens to my PCBs.
hernanstafe, I'd send you a couple of photosensitive PCBs if the shipping cost wasn't that high. (Plus, I think you wouldn't be helped much if you'd get accustomed to the photosensitive material and then be unable to get some more by yourself.) Anyway, it is possible to get decent results from the toner/iron method if done right (that's the challenge). I hope you get a grip on it.
jpg
jpg thanks a lot for your reply and your intention to send some photosensitive pcb's, i apreciate that a lot. Still, during my career (i'm studying electronics engeneering at college) i'll have to do tons of pcb's and i'd need lots of them so it'd be hard to be mailing them all the time. At college one of the professors told me that i should use the toner iron method that is the cheapest and most efficient way we can get HERE. Like i said the problem is the paper, that definetely WON'T go through the printer. Do you know if the NOT GLOSSY photo paper is good for this method?
I do toner transfer all the time (just did a nice little board last night). I've never had a ruined board, and only one or two had to be re-printed (I accidentally slid the paper while ironing or didn't clean well enough first). Sometimes there's a little bleed through of the etchant through the toner, but I think that's more a function of how thick the toner is, which isn't very changable exept to buy a new printer, and the type of etchant (I use H2O2 and HCl).
I use the Staples brand paper, but you probably don't have access to that. I'd suggest trying several different kinds of paper. If you have a paper supply store or a copy center in your town, you might want to ask for samples of their different kinds of paper. Write down the paper type on the paper, print out a small test design (something around 50cm x 50cm should work) and try the iron on method. This way you can test each one and you'll have it written down which one worked best. The paper I use has a shiny finish. Inkjet paper is supposed to work well because there's a coating on it that keeps the ink from bleeding into the paper which causes blurryness. The same coating keeps the melted toner from being soaked into the paper fibers. The problem is that the coatings weren't necessarily designed for the heat and pressure that they will be subjected to.
I've also found that a light scrubbing with 600-1000 grit sandpaper followed by cleaning with acetone right before ironing really helps the copper to stick to the toner. Bigger boards (say 100cm x 100cm) really require you to ensure you're getting enough temperature and pressure in the center of the board. But I've figured this method out and it works very easily for my needs.
I use the Staples brand paper, but you probably don't have access to that. I'd suggest trying several different kinds of paper. If you have a paper supply store or a copy center in your town, you might want to ask for samples of their different kinds of paper. Write down the paper type on the paper, print out a small test design (something around 50cm x 50cm should work) and try the iron on method. This way you can test each one and you'll have it written down which one worked best. The paper I use has a shiny finish. Inkjet paper is supposed to work well because there's a coating on it that keeps the ink from bleeding into the paper which causes blurryness. The same coating keeps the melted toner from being soaked into the paper fibers. The problem is that the coatings weren't necessarily designed for the heat and pressure that they will be subjected to.
I've also found that a light scrubbing with 600-1000 grit sandpaper followed by cleaning with acetone right before ironing really helps the copper to stick to the toner. Bigger boards (say 100cm x 100cm) really require you to ensure you're getting enough temperature and pressure in the center of the board. But I've figured this method out and it works very easily for my needs.
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