I got given a bunky 1200VA UPS supply today - another thing for me to fix. 
Does anybody have experience of running such supplies as the 240VAC source, with the UPS unplugged from the mains input supply, and any sonic advantages ?.
Any experience of isolating such a system from any grounds, or earthing to a dedicated earth stake ?.
Eric.
Does anybody have experience of running such supplies as the 240VAC source, with the UPS unplugged from the mains input supply, and any sonic advantages ?.
Any experience of isolating such a system from any grounds, or earthing to a dedicated earth stake ?.
Eric.
I'm using UPS for my front end (DAC and active crossover) and transport cannected directly to the mains.
Some people sau UPS don't sound good, but in my setup I hear an improvement. It may be because it somehow separates AC supply from 2 digital components (DAC and transport) so they don't contaminate each other. Also, when I unplug UPS and run from battery, there is a further improvement in depth and imaging. Here's the pic of mu UPS http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=35209#post35209
Some people sau UPS don't sound good, but in my setup I hear an improvement. It may be because it somehow separates AC supply from 2 digital components (DAC and transport) so they don't contaminate each other. Also, when I unplug UPS and run from battery, there is a further improvement in depth and imaging. Here's the pic of mu UPS http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=35209#post35209
I imagine it would depend highly on the particular UPS used. Some small, cheap models have a modified square wave output, full of harmonics. On the other hand, the better models have very low THD on the output, potentially lower than utility power.
Note that isolating the ground and using a separate ground rod both violates code, and is potentially dangerous. What you could do, though, is run an isolated ground back to the main ground point in the house.
Note that isolating the ground and using a separate ground rod both violates code, and is potentially dangerous. What you could do, though, is run an isolated ground back to the main ground point in the house.
Ultimate Portable Stereo....
Hi Peter,
I spent an hour after work this arvo at an electrician friends place diagnosing a 12kVA UPS and these things are a whole different thing - AUS$12,000 or so, and a truckload of expensive electronics and high power components.
He gave me the 'baby' 1200VA one that would have gone to the recycling center - now it is in my recycling center.
Your results sound encouraging - the transformer in mine is rather bigger than in yours - maybe that is a benefit ?.
Have you tried powering your new Gainclone and front end from your UPS ? - more portable to downstairs than your Alephs !.
Have you followed the 'Sound of Chassis' thread involving Frank and I ?.
Regards, Eric.
Hi Peter,
I spent an hour after work this arvo at an electrician friends place diagnosing a 12kVA UPS and these things are a whole different thing - AUS$12,000 or so, and a truckload of expensive electronics and high power components.
He gave me the 'baby' 1200VA one that would have gone to the recycling center - now it is in my recycling center.
Your results sound encouraging - the transformer in mine is rather bigger than in yours - maybe that is a benefit ?.
Have you tried powering your new Gainclone and front end from your UPS ? - more portable to downstairs than your Alephs !.
Have you followed the 'Sound of Chassis' thread involving Frank and I ?.
Regards, Eric.
Mega Battery Power....
"Note that isolating the ground and using a separate ground rod both violates code, and is potentially dangerous. What you could do, though, is run an isolated ground back to the main ground point in the house."
If running a complete system from a UPS that is disconnected from the mains, then presumably effectively you have a portable CD/Radio Cassette running from a balanced isolated 240V supply - floating so no electrical code earthing issues are involved.
The dedicated earth stake question was to find if any sonic differences arise between keeping the system floating or grounded, and away from noisey building earths.
Eric.
"Note that isolating the ground and using a separate ground rod both violates code, and is potentially dangerous. What you could do, though, is run an isolated ground back to the main ground point in the house."
If running a complete system from a UPS that is disconnected from the mains, then presumably effectively you have a portable CD/Radio Cassette running from a balanced isolated 240V supply - floating so no electrical code earthing issues are involved.
The dedicated earth stake question was to find if any sonic differences arise between keeping the system floating or grounded, and away from noisey building earths.
Eric.
UPS and UPS....
Depends what sort - online or offline.
Online types consist of input-rectifier-batteries-invetor-output, so is always generating from the battery DC supply.
Offline types switchover to invertor operation when input AC fails, and then the invertor stage starts.
Cheaper PC types are usually offline types.
Eric.
Depends what sort - online or offline.
Online types consist of input-rectifier-batteries-invetor-output, so is always generating from the battery DC supply.
Offline types switchover to invertor operation when input AC fails, and then the invertor stage starts.
Cheaper PC types are usually offline types.
Eric.
B*****d Yes, Lucky ? Hmmmmm...
Frank,
The big one (12kVA) is most definately continuous invertor operation, and in need of AUS$800 in parts.
New price is around AUS$12,000 I am told.
These level of machines are really serious - 3 phase input, huge transformers, capacitor banks, inductors, rectifiers, triacs and extensive controller circuitry, and just plain big throughout.
I do not have schematics yet, and this is one machine where I would prefer to have them - I am fully used to diagnosing and repairing 'flying blind', but the cost of parts if there is a stuff-up in this case frightens me.
The 1200VA one I cadged is a switchover type - offline (as is Peters I think).
I figure on running it from a couple of car batteries to make it suitable for extended invertor operation, and I am as keen as you to hear if it improves my sound, but alas I have to fix it first.
I may also modify it to make it run in continous mode while I am at it.
Peter, your UPS is working - tried it on your Gainclone system yet ?. - Frank's curiosity is burning him up. Only you can save him.
Eric.
Frank,
The big one (12kVA) is most definately continuous invertor operation, and in need of AUS$800 in parts.
New price is around AUS$12,000 I am told.
These level of machines are really serious - 3 phase input, huge transformers, capacitor banks, inductors, rectifiers, triacs and extensive controller circuitry, and just plain big throughout.
I do not have schematics yet, and this is one machine where I would prefer to have them - I am fully used to diagnosing and repairing 'flying blind', but the cost of parts if there is a stuff-up in this case frightens me.
The 1200VA one I cadged is a switchover type - offline (as is Peters I think).
I figure on running it from a couple of car batteries to make it suitable for extended invertor operation, and I am as keen as you to hear if it improves my sound, but alas I have to fix it first.
I may also modify it to make it run in continous mode while I am at it.
Peter, your UPS is working - tried it on your Gainclone system yet ?. - Frank's curiosity is burning him up. Only you can save him.
Eric.
I just tried my UPS with a gainclone. When the UPS is disconnected from mains, the sound lacks definition, everything is fuzzy and I didn't like it.
I had some hard decisions to choose between amp connected directly to the mains and to the UPS (powered from the wall). When using UPS, it seemed to be cleaner overall, with kinda dry vocal and flat, kinda lifeless. When amps is powered directly from mains, it seems like treble exist seperate from the mids and bass, the sound is warmer, more detail in highs, maybe a bit boomy bass, but overall that was my preferrence.
I noticed however, big improvement in powering digital front end through the UPS. There is much more depth and more natural presentation and it improves even more when UPS runs from battery. Totaly opposite to the amp.
It can only mean that there is no clear path in audio, and everything be better checked empirically, instead of talked over.
I had some hard decisions to choose between amp connected directly to the mains and to the UPS (powered from the wall). When using UPS, it seemed to be cleaner overall, with kinda dry vocal and flat, kinda lifeless. When amps is powered directly from mains, it seems like treble exist seperate from the mids and bass, the sound is warmer, more detail in highs, maybe a bit boomy bass, but overall that was my preferrence.
I noticed however, big improvement in powering digital front end through the UPS. There is much more depth and more natural presentation and it improves even more when UPS runs from battery. Totaly opposite to the amp.
It can only mean that there is no clear path in audio, and everything be better checked empirically, instead of talked over.
Re: B*****d Yes, Lucky ? Hmmmmm...
Serious indeed... We just installed a new UPS system here, which definitely qualifies as "serious". Currently we have two 40KVA modules operating in a redundant configuration, expandable to 4 modules (120KVA, N+1 reduntant). The cost for the current system (2 40KVA modules, parallel/bypass cabinet for 4 modules, and a wrap-around maintenance bypass) was approx. CAD$100,000. The system is housed in its own room, and has some serious power feeding it... Each module has a 3 phase, 208V 150A feed, and the bypass inputs each have 333A feeds, supplied with two parallel runs of #3/0 cable for each phase. It's an impressive system.
mrfeedback said:
Serious indeed... We just installed a new UPS system here, which definitely qualifies as "serious". Currently we have two 40KVA modules operating in a redundant configuration, expandable to 4 modules (120KVA, N+1 reduntant). The cost for the current system (2 40KVA modules, parallel/bypass cabinet for 4 modules, and a wrap-around maintenance bypass) was approx. CAD$100,000. The system is housed in its own room, and has some serious power feeding it... Each module has a 3 phase, 208V 150A feed, and the bypass inputs each have 333A feeds, supplied with two parallel runs of #3/0 cable for each phase. It's an impressive system.
Re: Re: B*****d Yes, Lucky ? Hmmmmm...
You could hang a seriously unplugged live show off that, bigtime.
What are you needing such big backup power capacity for ?.
Eric.
Sparhawk said:
Serious indeed... We just installed a new UPS system here, which definitely qualifies as "serious". Currently we have two 40KVA modules operating in a redundant configuration, expandable to 4 modules (120KVA, N+1 reduntant). The cost for the current system (2 40KVA modules, parallel/bypass cabinet for 4 modules, and a wrap-around maintenance bypass) was approx. CAD$100,000. The system is housed in its own room, and has some serious power feeding it... Each module has a 3 phase, 208V 150A feed, and the bypass inputs each have 333A feeds, supplied with two parallel runs of #3/0 cable for each phase. It's an impressive system.
You could hang a seriously unplugged live show off that, bigtime.
What are you needing such big backup power capacity for ?.
Eric.
That stuff is pretty much standard in many places where UPSs are really needed. I used to run 3 different 25KVA units backed up in turn by a 250 KW Diesel UPS = Unlimted backup time. After all many computers consume lots of electricity. Our Stratus needed 5 KVA by itself and that was ONE of the servers...
Business was Call-Center for a security company.
Business was Call-Center for a security company.
Mixed Results Eh ?....
A heap of experiments are in order, like polarity of mains feed to each component, and terrestrial earthing arrangements when running 'unplugged'.
I need to do more investigation and study, but from what I understand, the output stage of typical UPS is a stepped sinewave, and according to model the number of steps is variable.
Therefore final filtering sounds to be important.
To be sure, I am not clear on this path (partly because I do not have a working UPS yet), but I expect a balanced mains power feed with adequate (or extensive) filtering and dedicated earth stake ought to sound as good as it can - to be checked empirically.
Thanks Peter for trying the initial experiments.
Eric.
Peter Daniel said:I just tried my UPS with a gainclone. When the UPS is disconnected from mains, the sound lacks definition, everything is fuzzy and I didn't like it.
I had some hard decisions to choose between amp connected directly to the mains and to the UPS (powered from the wall). When using UPS, it seemed to be cleaner overall, with kinda dry vocal and flat, kinda lifeless. When amps is powered directly from mains, it seems like treble exist seperate from the mids and bass, the sound is warmer, more detail in highs, maybe a bit boomy bass, but overall that was my preferrence.
I noticed however, big improvement in powering digital front end through the UPS. There is much more depth and more natural presentation and it improves even more when UPS runs from battery. Totaly opposite to the amp.
It can only mean that there is no clear path in audio, and everything be better checked empirically, instead of talked over.
A heap of experiments are in order, like polarity of mains feed to each component, and terrestrial earthing arrangements when running 'unplugged'.
I need to do more investigation and study, but from what I understand, the output stage of typical UPS is a stepped sinewave, and according to model the number of steps is variable.
Therefore final filtering sounds to be important.
To be sure, I am not clear on this path (partly because I do not have a working UPS yet), but I expect a balanced mains power feed with adequate (or extensive) filtering and dedicated earth stake ought to sound as good as it can - to be checked empirically.
Thanks Peter for trying the initial experiments.
Eric.
Re: Re: Re: B*****d Yes, Lucky ? Hmmmmm...
It is for our new data centre. Besides housing all our own equipment, we also run a colocation business. A full equipment rack at maximum density can require 4-5KW. Our current room can accomodate around 40 racks... Most of them won't be nearly this dense, though. 120KVA should be adequate for the full room.
mrfeedback said:
It is for our new data centre. Besides housing all our own equipment, we also run a colocation business. A full equipment rack at maximum density can require 4-5KW. Our current room can accomodate around 40 racks... Most of them won't be nearly this dense, though. 120KVA should be adequate for the full room.
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