Dave,
I believe both have their pros and cons.
I disagree that macs are bad. And Macs are easy to use. If you are a windows user it just takes a little while to get used to windows, just as if you grew up on macs it takes a little while to get used to windows. The right click is not much of an advantage, since you can simply click on the apple button at the top left of the screen. The way the Macs file system heirarchy is made is great and faster than PC, but i am very used to PC and have become very fond of it and am quick with it. I am also looking forward to the new Vista.
Josh
I believe both have their pros and cons.
I disagree that macs are bad. And Macs are easy to use. If you are a windows user it just takes a little while to get used to windows, just as if you grew up on macs it takes a little while to get used to windows. The right click is not much of an advantage, since you can simply click on the apple button at the top left of the screen. The way the Macs file system heirarchy is made is great and faster than PC, but i am very used to PC and have become very fond of it and am quick with it. I am also looking forward to the new Vista.
Josh
edjosh23 said:
Have you read the licencing agreement?
And are you aware of what Vista will do to MM files -- have a read of this...
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
I don't know how many PC mags/websites i've read where died-in-the-wool PC proponents are calling the Mac OS superior.
The writing is on the wall -- windoz keeps getting further & further behind (the last windoz machine is scheduled to be turned off forever in 2025)
And when one factors in the cost of running Windoz -- all those virii, system crashes that take out all your email, having to upgrade hardware with every OS upgrade (as opposed to every Mac OS upgrade that revitilizes your old Mac -- you do often need more RAM).
But in a competitive world i'm happy because my Mac gives me an edge over the guys running Windoz.
And if you do have to run windoz... one of the very best machines to tun it on is one of the new Intel Macs.
dave
Dave,
I had not heard about the HDCP stuff, but i had read about hardware issues and battery life. This T60 has an Intel Dual core 2.0gighz processor 2gig RAM and is more than ready for vista. I'm also waiting for hybrid drives, this will save battery life and speed things up. I work with a small IT company here at school and I have to learn to be proficient at Vista to teach customers. I also get huge discounts by bying through my school.
Josh
I had not heard about the HDCP stuff, but i had read about hardware issues and battery life. This T60 has an Intel Dual core 2.0gighz processor 2gig RAM and is more than ready for vista. I'm also waiting for hybrid drives, this will save battery life and speed things up. I work with a small IT company here at school and I have to learn to be proficient at Vista to teach customers. I also get huge discounts by bying through my school.
Josh
planet10 said:
your first point...
from apple.com, macbook...
$1,099.00
1.83GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
512MB memory
60GB hard drive
Combo drive
from dell.com, inspiron e1705
$999
Intel® Core™ Duo T2250 (1.73GHz, 2MB L2 Cache, 533 MHz FSB)
1GB Shared4 Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz
80GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
8x CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
so i dunno, looks like your info is maybe dated, or wrong, or something. dells suck anyway, not fun to tech, weird bios options, really messed up default software set.
second point...
why should you NEED an extra device to have multiple pointer buttons on a laptop? $1k, apple cant add what amounts to $1 worth of switches to make a REAL pointing device, instead of another styling cue?
i know i can plug in any kickass $10 logitech 3 button optical scroll wheel mouse. point is if the hardware wasnt such an excersize in bs marketing, styling, branding, i wouldnt have to.
third point...
magazines? who cares what magazines say? you're on the interweb, worldwide yo, data super freeway... faster than instant noodles, more information the hawkings and brittanica combined... magazines are like 2-6 months behind the times =)
fourth point...
windows sucks, BUT A PC IS NOT WINDOWS. osx is just bsd with a messed up window manager.
some users dont like silly visual transistions.
some user dont go WOWOW everytime apple renames something standard and says its something new that pc users dont have.
some users dont like applications stamped 'simpler' that simply strip out features and make broad assumptions about the users intentions.
some people dont like being hooked in direct to apples ad agency.
try and do something with a mac that it wasnt specifically intended to do.
welcome yourself to hell when you do.
a pc is dynamic, a tool, capable of being useful for everyone, no expeptions. windows sucks partially because its a TRUE UNIVERSAL OPERATING SYSTEM, it runs on literally millions of different x86 hardware combinations, and runs more applications than any other operating system. its not easy. they could do better. but they could be doing much, much, much worse.
where as osx is a bsd system that only has to be made to work on maybe 4 or 6 platforms at a time, with a very restrictive look and functionality.
but hey to many mouse buttons is confusing, right? and maybe people being locked in, hooked up, hip, cool, down with the neat new shiny titanium (aluminum, hahah) toy.
techs buy PCs, artists buy macs.
who do you think knows more about computers? which group do you think is more influenced by flashy ad campaigns and articles in magazines that run off advertiser money?
k thanks for your time ive been wanting to do that for awhile.
Ren, if you are going to attempt to "prove" that mac's are expensive you should give an accurate comparison, not some selected favorable specs:
How's about we try a 2.0ghz processor so at least so we aren't comparing Apples and lemons?
If I spec the Mac book and a dell inspirion 1705 so they have the same options where possible the picture looks a little different. Of course the Dell is 17" vs Mac 13.3" but we can't do much about that
Also OSX comes in one fully enabled version, not in a slew of crippled, cut price versions so I've spec'ed XP Pro to make things fair.
The differences in options are
Mac book: + gigabit ethernet, built-in "I-sight" video camera
Dell: + modem
Other bits on the mac that are niceish: optical audio inputs/outputs
bottom line:
Apple Mac Book $1299
Dell Inspiron 1705 $1408
and to really compare you'd still need to add a webcam and a reasonable sound card to the Dell purchase price.
My point is that Apple include load of stuff that companies such as Dell like to consider "pay for" upgrades and options. And I know which one is a nicer looking package
btw desktop mac's now come bundled with a wired version of this mouse:
http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/
so your only remaining argument is that it isn't running Linux.
Macs have been able to run various flavours of bsd (i had an SE30 running NetBSD back in 93) and linux (Yellowdog was the PPC Linux port) since the early/mid 90's... Current macs can happily multiple boot windows, *bsd, linux and OSX.
besides *bsd kicks linux a** bigtime
"linux : insecure by default"
How's about we try a 2.0ghz processor so at least so we aren't comparing Apples and lemons?
If I spec the Mac book and a dell inspirion 1705 so they have the same options where possible the picture looks a little different. Of course the Dell is 17" vs Mac 13.3" but we can't do much about that
Also OSX comes in one fully enabled version, not in a slew of crippled, cut price versions so I've spec'ed XP Pro to make things fair.The differences in options are
Mac book: + gigabit ethernet, built-in "I-sight" video camera
Dell: + modem
Other bits on the mac that are niceish: optical audio inputs/outputs
bottom line:
Apple Mac Book $1299
Dell Inspiron 1705 $1408
and to really compare you'd still need to add a webcam and a reasonable sound card to the Dell purchase price.
My point is that Apple include load of stuff that companies such as Dell like to consider "pay for" upgrades and options. And I know which one is a nicer looking package
btw desktop mac's now come bundled with a wired version of this mouse:
http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/
so your only remaining argument is that it isn't running Linux.
Macs have been able to run various flavours of bsd (i had an SE30 running NetBSD back in 93) and linux (Yellowdog was the PPC Linux port) since the early/mid 90's... Current macs can happily multiple boot windows, *bsd, linux and OSX.
besides *bsd kicks linux a** bigtime
"linux : insecure by default"
spzzzzkt said:
Since OS X Apple laptops have become the favorite of the Linux community -- and a lot of them don't bother with linux, happy just to have a shell into BSD.
An Intel Mac (given enuff memory)can run Windows (as many as you like -- even DOS), all flavours of Linux, FreeBSD, OS 2, BE O/S and it can do it all at the same time (does request additional software ($25-$75) -- one of the virtual machine sw packages (ie VMWare or Parallels) and with Cross-over Mac (a version of WINE) can just run well behaved Windows programs.
dave
spzzzzkt said:
Can't be bothered...
You know what Douglas Adams said
And that seems to be backed up by statistics... the smarter a person is the more likely they are to own a Mac, and despite only 5% (or less) marketshare* 28% of lawyers in the US use Macs.
*(Apple's US marketshare grew something like 30% last year, and given that a Mac typically has twice the usable lifespan on a PC...)
dave
I think it is pointless to argue prices. I can look up toshiba, Sony, Acer, HP, Dell, Gateway, etc. to compare to the macs. They are going to be different. Personally I don't care for a webcam, but at the same time i don't care for a 56k modem.
With enough looking and customizing I can build a faster IBM with a bigger screen, larger hard drive, etc for less but another person can come up with opposite results.
Its all up to the comsumer as to what they want the laptop for, what kind of deals they can get, and how much they want to spend.
I have had Dells, Gateways, HPs, and Macs growing up. Macs only when I was much younger, but i choose IBM because of what i need it for (along with my school asking me to get it). Something an EE professor told me, "All computers can compute the same set of functions. Whats the difference? Speed, ease of use, power, price, durability/reliability, and form factor." Just because one copmuter has a right clicker doesn't mean the other computer can't do the same things.
My computer specs are cheaper in an IBM than a mac and my friends amazing IBM he bought for $500 less than the MacBookPro that was not as powerful, but for some people Macs may be cheaper for what they want.
jeff mai,
What OS do you have on your current computer? Do you want to switch operating systems?
Thanks,
Josh
PS
Dave,
I think if we are going to ague operating systems a new thread should be made.
With enough looking and customizing I can build a faster IBM with a bigger screen, larger hard drive, etc for less but another person can come up with opposite results.
Its all up to the comsumer as to what they want the laptop for, what kind of deals they can get, and how much they want to spend.
I have had Dells, Gateways, HPs, and Macs growing up. Macs only when I was much younger, but i choose IBM because of what i need it for (along with my school asking me to get it). Something an EE professor told me, "All computers can compute the same set of functions. Whats the difference? Speed, ease of use, power, price, durability/reliability, and form factor." Just because one copmuter has a right clicker doesn't mean the other computer can't do the same things.
My computer specs are cheaper in an IBM than a mac and my friends amazing IBM he bought for $500 less than the MacBookPro that was not as powerful, but for some people Macs may be cheaper for what they want.
jeff mai,
What OS do you have on your current computer? Do you want to switch operating systems?
Thanks,
Josh
PS
Dave,
I think if we are going to ague operating systems a new thread should be made.
Sure you can get different prices but it's just a bogus argument unless you compare like with like. The bottom line is if you compare Name Brand laptops of similar specs there isn't much in it pricewise.
I believe Jeff is a happy PC user, but I suspect he has given on this rambling thread by now...
I believe Jeff is a happy PC user, but I suspect he has given on this rambling thread by now...
Oh so true... but that doesn't enter into the equation with the "cheaper is better" crew. Try telling someone who is adamant that Mac's are over priced that Apple's build quality is absolutely first rate - and I've worked on enough to know - and that you are also buying a beautifully designed product to boot and you get laughed at - "but they are overpriced".
Seriously, I've just bought a IBM Z61M laptop for my girlfriend, primarily because she _really_ wanted a 17" display and at that price point Apple only offer 13.3". Hey, I'm a realist I also assemble/use various i386 boxen for running openbsd servers and firewall.
However, while the IBM is pretty solid and performance is quite good, I can't understand the "more is more" design philosophy that results in a ugly as sin lump of plastic covered with an plethora of pointless buttons.
Seriously, I've just bought a IBM Z61M laptop for my girlfriend, primarily because she _really_ wanted a 17" display and at that price point Apple only offer 13.3". Hey, I'm a realist
I also assemble/use various i386 boxen for running openbsd servers and firewall. However, while the IBM is pretty solid and performance is quite good, I can't understand the "more is more" design philosophy that results in a ugly as sin lump of plastic covered with an plethora of pointless buttons.
spzzzzkt said:Ren, if you are going to attempt to "prove" that mac's are expensive you should give an accurate comparison, not some selected favorable specs:
How's about we try a 2.0ghz processor so at least so we aren't comparing Apples and lemons?
If I spec the Mac book and a dell inspirion 1705 so they have the same options where possible the picture looks a little different. Of course the Dell is 17" vs Mac 13.3" but we can't do much about that
The differences in options are
Mac book: + gigabit ethernet, built-in "I-sight" video camera
Dell: + modem
Other bits on the mac that are niceish: optical audio inputs/outputs
bottom line:
Apple Mac Book $1299
Dell Inspiron 1705 $1408
and to really compare you'd still need to add a webcam and a reasonable sound card to the Dell purchase price.
My point is that Apple include load of stuff that companies such as Dell like to consider "pay for" upgrades and options. And I know which one is a nicer looking package
btw desktop mac's now come bundled with a wired version of this mouse:
http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/
so your only remaining argument is that it isn't running Linux.
Macs have been able to run various flavours of bsd (i had an SE30 running NetBSD back in 93) and linux (Yellowdog was the PPC Linux port) since the early/mid 90's... Current macs can happily multiple boot windows, *bsd, linux and OSX.
besides *bsd kicks linux a** bigtime
"linux : insecure by default"
those arent favored specs, those are the $1000 computers from the front pages of apple and dell. how are your specs not favored specs?
anyway, dells suck, i spent last weekend clearing the Run nodes of ridiculous amounts of boot processes off one, brand new... and we can shop all day to prove that mac and pc hardware is pretty much comparable in price, depending on what brand of pc you wanna go with. you have like prob 50 or 100 different choices with a pc laptop. macs you have maybe 6?
point is, macs are in no way cheaper (or imho a better value).
macs will never be as dynamic or useful, universally, as a pc.
my gf has an iMac with that exact mouse, the 2 way scrolly clit is annoying, it has two mouse buttons on the side that are actually one, that need to kinda be squeezed together. you cant squeeze one and hold the mouse with another finger or thumb, because the whole top half of the mouse is the single clicker button. so you have to actually hold the mouse at just the right angle to use it. on her mac it just another transistion/scaling effect to put all your open windows in a collage for you too pick from. nice toy...
um, bsd runs on x86...
and linux runs on macs...
so whats your point?
dell, hp, sony, whatever... big company computers are crap.
apple aint no diff. osx is just another thing apple renamed, dumbed down, and hyped as revolutionary. aqua is a totally messed up wm. they managed to make bsd slow. my gf's iMac has better specs than my pc, but the gui lags hard, often, and makes the computer seem ancient in comparison to mine.... pinwheels, anyone?
run top, or ps afx, the amount of running proccesses is as ridiculous as windows (or a default big distro linux install)
if you want a good computer, build it, or have it built.
if you need a laptop, get a thinkpad. theyre like tanks, but sexier cuz all black. everything else is silly plastic trim, stupid colors, or funky fruit logo machines.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.