I don't know why it took me so long to come to diyaudio with this question. At first it seems off topic. But 90 percent of us probably own a cordless tool, there's a wealth of electronic know-how aboard, and 100 percent of us are into 'do it yourself'.
So... I'm looking at 120 plus dollars to replace the batteries for my 14.4 volt Milwaukee drill. (for this plus the purchase cost, I could have bought HOW MANY Menard's 18 volt drills at 28.95 and pretty much tossed them at the first sign of trouble?)
There are a few online shops that will refurbish, but after shipping, etc, the cost is still 75 percent of over-the-counter. Interestingly, PrimeCell.com claims to be able to improve the build of a battery like mine from 2.4 amp-hour NiCd to 3.0 amp-hour NiMH. Who knows? Anybody ever dealt with 'Batteries Plus' stores?
Anyway... is there a source for the individual NiCd/NiMH batteries that might enable me to order what I need and repair the thing myself? My battery comes apart easily with six screws (evidentally DeWalt's must be cracked and reepoxied) and the individual battery units within are connected by stiff spot-welded wire. That's the only real hurdle I can see - since I'm not going to be soldering the ends of these and they'll have to maintain solid contact under reasonable (ab)use.
Whew.... just explaining this is starting to convince me to just send em off for repair. My charger is an automatic 9.6 - 18 volt NiCd/NiMH
model, so I could easily upgrade to their "best" line.
Any thoughts?
Incidentally, while I'm here, an interesting side note. Makita has taken an interesting approach to taking advantage of Chinese industry. They didn't simply spin off a "stealth" brand for fear of weakening their name/reputation like most companies. They came out with a line of "Maktec" tools that are virtually identical to their main line. Same color - feels the same in the hand, etc. 100 percent made-in-China and marketed as comparable quality, same warranty, but with fewer features, bells, and whistles. They are cheaper enough to make them worth a look. Interesting approach. Wonder if it'll work.
So... I'm looking at 120 plus dollars to replace the batteries for my 14.4 volt Milwaukee drill. (for this plus the purchase cost, I could have bought HOW MANY Menard's 18 volt drills at 28.95 and pretty much tossed them at the first sign of trouble?)
There are a few online shops that will refurbish, but after shipping, etc, the cost is still 75 percent of over-the-counter. Interestingly, PrimeCell.com claims to be able to improve the build of a battery like mine from 2.4 amp-hour NiCd to 3.0 amp-hour NiMH. Who knows? Anybody ever dealt with 'Batteries Plus' stores?
Anyway... is there a source for the individual NiCd/NiMH batteries that might enable me to order what I need and repair the thing myself? My battery comes apart easily with six screws (evidentally DeWalt's must be cracked and reepoxied) and the individual battery units within are connected by stiff spot-welded wire. That's the only real hurdle I can see - since I'm not going to be soldering the ends of these and they'll have to maintain solid contact under reasonable (ab)use.
Whew.... just explaining this is starting to convince me to just send em off for repair. My charger is an automatic 9.6 - 18 volt NiCd/NiMH
model, so I could easily upgrade to their "best" line.
Any thoughts?
Incidentally, while I'm here, an interesting side note. Makita has taken an interesting approach to taking advantage of Chinese industry. They didn't simply spin off a "stealth" brand for fear of weakening their name/reputation like most companies. They came out with a line of "Maktec" tools that are virtually identical to their main line. Same color - feels the same in the hand, etc. 100 percent made-in-China and marketed as comparable quality, same warranty, but with fewer features, bells, and whistles. They are cheaper enough to make them worth a look. Interesting approach. Wonder if it'll work.
I think as long as the technician isn't 3/4 blind and neither hand is tied behind his back it shouldn't be too much hassle to refurbish a battery pack unless it's all plastic-welded together (I just took apart a cheapie and it was screwed together).
Google up anyplace that sells individual cells. Take pictures. Report back...
Google up anyplace that sells individual cells. Take pictures. Report back...
I don't have any experience with high end tools like Milwaukee, but I have had a number of rechargable electric and electronic things. From razors to phones to computers. And a (cheap) drill. Eventually the batteries always die. Usually this results in a big PITA, as the manufacturer has often moved on to different models and form factors.
This has led me to conclude that one should never buy a rechargable thing when a wall-powered thing will do.
When my drill batteries died, I went out and bought a regular drill. Cost less than a cordless of equiv. quality (or rather, the corded drill I paid the same amount for is much nicer), and it's able to deal out WAY more torque. I'm never stuck with dead batteries. Since I don't do any work when the power is out, or at sites remote from the grid I have been very pleased with my purchase, and am glad I didn't go out to buy more batteries. Especially since my drill usage pattern is not conductive to having well-maintained batteries.
My suggestion is that you consider spending the money in stead on a corded drill. I dunno, maybe you need the cordlessness. I didn't. The Milwaukee is, I'm sure, pretty nice. You could probably recoup some money by selling it. Not the answer you were looking for maybe, but worth considering...
This has led me to conclude that one should never buy a rechargable thing when a wall-powered thing will do.
When my drill batteries died, I went out and bought a regular drill. Cost less than a cordless of equiv. quality (or rather, the corded drill I paid the same amount for is much nicer), and it's able to deal out WAY more torque. I'm never stuck with dead batteries. Since I don't do any work when the power is out, or at sites remote from the grid I have been very pleased with my purchase, and am glad I didn't go out to buy more batteries. Especially since my drill usage pattern is not conductive to having well-maintained batteries.
My suggestion is that you consider spending the money in stead on a corded drill. I dunno, maybe you need the cordlessness. I didn't. The Milwaukee is, I'm sure, pretty nice. You could probably recoup some money by selling it. Not the answer you were looking for maybe, but worth considering...
battery pack rebuilds
The Milwaukee is a good tool and i'd refurbish the battery pack rather than buying a new one tool anytime.
After getting the battery pack open (quite often they are plastic welded, but even then it's not impossible if you're careful), measure the dimensions of a cell - you should find that it's a C size cell (at least in diameter), possibly it will have a shorter length (4/5th is common). Most electronic shops will stock these cells - try and get ready tagged cells, they are easier to solder together.
Use desolder braid or something flexible to connect the cells together - rigid connections sometimes fracture (a problem corrected by Milwaukee in later versions of their battery packs, identiifed i believe by grey battery release clips rather than the earlier black ones).
Good luck!
The Milwaukee is a good tool and i'd refurbish the battery pack rather than buying a new one tool anytime.
After getting the battery pack open (quite often they are plastic welded, but even then it's not impossible if you're careful), measure the dimensions of a cell - you should find that it's a C size cell (at least in diameter), possibly it will have a shorter length (4/5th is common). Most electronic shops will stock these cells - try and get ready tagged cells, they are easier to solder together.
Use desolder braid or something flexible to connect the cells together - rigid connections sometimes fracture (a problem corrected by Milwaukee in later versions of their battery packs, identiifed i believe by grey battery release clips rather than the earlier black ones).
Good luck!
I don't know the price of the original B.pack you need, but a 10-pack of 3Ah NiMH's is appx 61$ at Digikey. Don't mind the spot weld thingie... a good solder job is actually better - I regularly make battery packs for large sounding rockets (!), and we actally prefer quality hand soldering over the spot weld.
You will need to make sure you get the riight size, of course.. ;-)
Just make sure you use good quality batteries - there are some cheap no-good ones out there.... If it is cost efficient - that's entirely up to you.
I've had several cheap, no-brand models, and I just can't describe the joy when the last one fell down the stairs!
Then I bought a Bosch..............
You will need to make sure you get the riight size, of course.. ;-)
Just make sure you use good quality batteries - there are some cheap no-good ones out there.... If it is cost efficient - that's entirely up to you.
I've had several cheap, no-brand models, and I just can't describe the joy when the last one fell down the stairs!
Then I bought a Bosch..............
Using de-soldering braid for connections is an excellent idea.
I am fully on your side where corded tools are concerned. The ONLY cordless tool I own is a drill. This is because I have an embarrassing wealth of excellent corded drills but I happen to have borrowed my brother's DeWalt cordless for a project ONCE. I was hopelessly hooked. After I got the Milwaukee I grab it 98 percent of the time even when I'm next to a plug. I would never, however, spring for anything else cordless.
The best deal out there seems to be Batteries Plus right now. Said over the phone that they would rebuild my 2.4mah battery with warranty for 41 dollars. Upgrade to NiCd or NiMH up to 3.0mah for 54 dollars.
I sent emails off to four separate cell distributors to see about ordering the 12 x 22mm x 42mm cells and will wait on the results. Most probably won't deal with such a small order. We'll see.
That Digi-Key price sounds like I might be better off just letting Batteries Plus handle things. Don't know what they use (panasonic, sanyo, etc) but they are warranteed.
Now if I could concretely decide between NiCd or NiMH for this tool I'd be doing well. What would be quite nice would be a "fanny pack" of cells with a short cord/plug that could be used for big tough projects so that the little packs wouldn't get abused so quickly.
Hmm, maybe I'll make one.
(leave it to an inveterate diy'er to put WAY too much thought into something like this!)
I am fully on your side where corded tools are concerned. The ONLY cordless tool I own is a drill. This is because I have an embarrassing wealth of excellent corded drills but I happen to have borrowed my brother's DeWalt cordless for a project ONCE. I was hopelessly hooked. After I got the Milwaukee I grab it 98 percent of the time even when I'm next to a plug. I would never, however, spring for anything else cordless.
The best deal out there seems to be Batteries Plus right now. Said over the phone that they would rebuild my 2.4mah battery with warranty for 41 dollars. Upgrade to NiCd or NiMH up to 3.0mah for 54 dollars.
I sent emails off to four separate cell distributors to see about ordering the 12 x 22mm x 42mm cells and will wait on the results. Most probably won't deal with such a small order. We'll see.
That Digi-Key price sounds like I might be better off just letting Batteries Plus handle things. Don't know what they use (panasonic, sanyo, etc) but they are warranteed.
Now if I could concretely decide between NiCd or NiMH for this tool I'd be doing well. What would be quite nice would be a "fanny pack" of cells with a short cord/plug that could be used for big tough projects so that the little packs wouldn't get abused so quickly.
Hmm, maybe I'll make one.
(leave it to an inveterate diy'er to put WAY too much thought into something like this!)
"NiCd's develop internal shorts, but when good they put out slightly more current than NiMh's." I heard this somewhere, but I think the real reason is that if they all sold NiMH's, they wouldn't make as much on replacement batteries.
I believe you can often get NiCd's to take a charge if you charge up a fair amount of capacitance to 100VDC and then put it across the terminals. The sudden jolt melts the internal short and it will take a charge again. Take a look at some of the electronics repair faq's and make sure you fully understand the dangers before you do this, though. I wouldn't want the idea to cause you any injury.
I believe you can often get NiCd's to take a charge if you charge up a fair amount of capacitance to 100VDC and then put it across the terminals. The sudden jolt melts the internal short and it will take a charge again. Take a look at some of the electronics repair faq's and make sure you fully understand the dangers before you do this, though. I wouldn't want the idea to cause you any injury.
When my ultra cheapie cordless drill wouldn't hold a charge & after a multitude of repairs...replace cells, fix burned down charger, reglue-up broken charger housing...I just tossed the cell assy. & charger....wired up the drill to a twelve foot or so 12Ga. zip cord, some alligator clips & clipped it to the 12VDC of the car battery (Was working in a car dealership). The "9.6 VDC" drill just loved the 12 volts....now it works well all the time.
________________________________Rick.........
________________________________Rick.........
And I thought that "facts" from the audio world were replete with apocryphal junk... wait till you try to find out anything credible about rechargeable batteries!
Memory effects? Temperature extremes. Importance of amp hour ratings and how they affect life spans. Conditioning. Lifespans and likelihood of defects/shorts among different technologies/manufacturers, etc, etc. It would be one thing if this information were really credibly researched and assembled anywhere... but quite another that every handiman with a pc weighs in with radically divergent experiences and "facts" - and even the manufacturers can't seem to get good infomation out through the filter of their own marketing teams.
Memory effects? Temperature extremes. Importance of amp hour ratings and how they affect life spans. Conditioning. Lifespans and likelihood of defects/shorts among different technologies/manufacturers, etc, etc. It would be one thing if this information were really credibly researched and assembled anywhere... but quite another that every handiman with a pc weighs in with radically divergent experiences and "facts" - and even the manufacturers can't seem to get good infomation out through the filter of their own marketing teams.
Internal shorts in NiCad's
I believe that the internal shorts in NiCad cells slowly decrease their capacity till they become useless.
I came across an article sometime in the late 90's ( could have been ETI from Australia) which removed these shorts. The method was to charge up a small capacitor using mains and discharge this through the battery which burns up these shorts. Of course only one or a few shorts burn up at a time. So you have to zap the bettery many times to burn up as much of the shorts as possible.
The capacitor is small in value so it hasn't enough charge to damage the battery.
I had made a unit long ago. I saw it a few months ago ! Will look around for it. I can't remember what the results were ( long ago ) .
I do have two dead rechargeable cells from my cordless screw driver. I'll try it on that and report.
Cheers.
I found these links:
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/rejuv.html
http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_audiofaq9.html
Item : 12.12
http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_NiCd_Battery.html
http://www.batterieswholesale.com/faq_nicad.htm
I see that there are people for and against Zapping a dead cell.
However please note that they use the term Zapping for two totally different processes.
1. They use very large capacitors like 40,000uF/70V and discharge it across a cell. This can cause heating and possibly other damage if done excessively ( explode !?) .
2. The ( safe!) version that I tried. It uses a small cap (1uF?) at rectified mains voltage ( 380 V ) to zap each time. The energy of the discharge pulse is much smaller.
I'll put up the circuit in a day or two.
( NOT MEANT FOR NEWBIES . 380 volts can kill you if you make mistakes!) However the unit is designed fairly safely . The mains is disconnected before zapping.
Cheers.
I believe that the internal shorts in NiCad cells slowly decrease their capacity till they become useless.
I came across an article sometime in the late 90's ( could have been ETI from Australia) which removed these shorts. The method was to charge up a small capacitor using mains and discharge this through the battery which burns up these shorts. Of course only one or a few shorts burn up at a time. So you have to zap the bettery many times to burn up as much of the shorts as possible.
The capacitor is small in value so it hasn't enough charge to damage the battery.
I had made a unit long ago. I saw it a few months ago ! Will look around for it. I can't remember what the results were ( long ago ) .
I do have two dead rechargeable cells from my cordless screw driver. I'll try it on that and report.
Cheers.
I found these links:
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/rejuv.html
http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_audiofaq9.html
Item : 12.12
http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_NiCd_Battery.html
http://www.batterieswholesale.com/faq_nicad.htm
I see that there are people for and against Zapping a dead cell.
However please note that they use the term Zapping for two totally different processes.
1. They use very large capacitors like 40,000uF/70V and discharge it across a cell. This can cause heating and possibly other damage if done excessively ( explode !?) .
2. The ( safe!) version that I tried. It uses a small cap (1uF?) at rectified mains voltage ( 380 V ) to zap each time. The energy of the discharge pulse is much smaller.
I'll put up the circuit in a day or two.
( NOT MEANT FOR NEWBIES . 380 volts can kill you if you make mistakes!) However the unit is designed fairly safely . The mains is disconnected before zapping.
Cheers.
bluebeard said:
The information you get from this site costs you nothing. That you ridicule those who have taken the time to discuss your question implies that you expected more value out of your investment. IF your goal was to have a text of battery information automatically generated for you, you definitely asked the wrong question.
zapping cordless tool batteries
I use Ryobi 18 volt cordless tools almost daily. I ran across an article a couple of years ago that said a fairly small current across a dead battery could bring it back to life.
I had a small 12volt 6A. power supply so I figured why not give it a try. I just touch the terminals on the batt. with the power supply leads for about 2/3 seconds. Most of the batteries will then take a charge from their proper charger.
What I have noticed is that these zapped batteries will discharge much more quickly and take longer to recharge. Eventually they stop taking a charge and even zapping will not bring them back.
I would say on average I usually get about 60/70 more charges out of them, then they are toast
I use Ryobi 18 volt cordless tools almost daily. I ran across an article a couple of years ago that said a fairly small current across a dead battery could bring it back to life.
I had a small 12volt 6A. power supply so I figured why not give it a try. I just touch the terminals on the batt. with the power supply leads for about 2/3 seconds. Most of the batteries will then take a charge from their proper charger.
What I have noticed is that these zapped batteries will discharge much more quickly and take longer to recharge. Eventually they stop taking a charge and even zapping will not bring them back.
I would say on average I usually get about 60/70 more charges out of them, then they are toast
Ron,
You have definitely misapprehended my criticism. In fact, I'm a little blown away by your anger. If you were offended by my "shorts" quip, I think you need to back up a little and check your sensitivity. I am, once again, sorry for the levity - especially now that I see it was taken so seriously!
As far as the "apocryphal junk" that clutters much discussion regarding audio, I hope that I share this criticism generally with most of the members here. I've been a member here long enough so that I would hope it was easily understood that I'm not referring to anyone, or any information, here at diyaudio. Somehow, you seem to have understood my reference to "handimen" as responders to this thread. Perhaps YOU had a few too many beers.
I did quite a bit of research on the question of the charge capacity of my charger. The "technician" at Batteries Plus in my city told me pretty unequivocally that anything over 2.7ah would not get charged on my charger no matter how long. I found some information to the contrary, but was unsure of its accuracy. I hoped that someone here might set me straight.
Ron E. ... kindly refrain from responding to any more of this thread. I ask this as the thread starter, and an otherwise reasonable poster to this board who frankly doesn't need your crap!
You have definitely misapprehended my criticism. In fact, I'm a little blown away by your anger. If you were offended by my "shorts" quip, I think you need to back up a little and check your sensitivity. I am, once again, sorry for the levity - especially now that I see it was taken so seriously!
As far as the "apocryphal junk" that clutters much discussion regarding audio, I hope that I share this criticism generally with most of the members here. I've been a member here long enough so that I would hope it was easily understood that I'm not referring to anyone, or any information, here at diyaudio. Somehow, you seem to have understood my reference to "handimen" as responders to this thread. Perhaps YOU had a few too many beers.
I did quite a bit of research on the question of the charge capacity of my charger. The "technician" at Batteries Plus in my city told me pretty unequivocally that anything over 2.7ah would not get charged on my charger no matter how long. I found some information to the contrary, but was unsure of its accuracy. I hoped that someone here might set me straight.
Ron E. ... kindly refrain from responding to any more of this thread. I ask this as the thread starter, and an otherwise reasonable poster to this board who frankly doesn't need your crap!
To be honest, I thought the shorts quip was funny until your second rant. Then I thought you just offended everyone who took the time to answer your questions. 
In hindsight it appears you may have been frustrated with any information you have found on the net, rather than just that at diyaudio. If that was the case, my apologies.
Here is some interesting info on batteries that I found when doing a search a year or so ago with the same goal that you have.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/ACCS/BATTS/BATTS.HTM
I thought the same guy did a charger test , too - but I can't find it with a quick search. To the point, the charger is just as important (if not moreso) as the batteries' capacity rating. This review is geared toward only AA NiMH cells, but I would say they would apply to any NiMH used in a high drain situation.
NiCd's can be charged and discharged faster than NiMH's so a charger designed for NiCd's may ruin NiMH's....
BTW, I tried the zapping with a 20V 5amp power supply - didn't work. I didn't have any big 20V+ capacitors handy, so I ended up waiting for a sale and buying a new (and better) tool....
In hindsight it appears you may have been frustrated with any information you have found on the net, rather than just that at diyaudio. If that was the case, my apologies.Here is some interesting info on batteries that I found when doing a search a year or so ago with the same goal that you have.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/ACCS/BATTS/BATTS.HTM
I thought the same guy did a charger test , too - but I can't find it with a quick search. To the point, the charger is just as important (if not moreso) as the batteries' capacity rating. This review is geared toward only AA NiMH cells, but I would say they would apply to any NiMH used in a high drain situation.
NiCd's can be charged and discharged faster than NiMH's so a charger designed for NiCd's may ruin NiMH's....
BTW, I tried the zapping with a 20V 5amp power supply - didn't work. I didn't have any big 20V+ capacitors handy, so I ended up waiting for a sale and buying a new (and better) tool....
Caution ! Caution ! Caution !
I cannot find the magazine article but I did find a zapper that I made. I have no idea what changes I made , if any. It does zap the battery. I can't test the current unit as the capacitor has leaked and needs to be replaced.
There is HIGH VOLTAGE everywhere so if anyone tries it use CAUTION>>>CAUTION>>>>CAUTION.
Stand on an INSULATED surface and use just one hand. The unit better be fixed to a base board and you shouldn't need to touch it except the switches . The push button and power switch MUST be insulated types with plastic on the operating surface .
Some details;
PO1 , PO2,PS1,PS2 are the poles of a DPDT switch. The poles are all independent of each other. So that makes eight terminals on the switch , four on one side and four on the other. Flip the toggle one way and PO1 and PO2 are open and PS1 and PS2 are closed and vice versa.
S1 is a non locking push button.
D1 is a 1N4007 diode .
D2 is not an LED. Its a NEON LAMP.
C1 is a 32uF / 450 volt electrolytic cap .
All resistors are 1/2 watt .
Output to the battery to be zapped is taken across R5 . My unit has insulated crocodile clips on 1 foot long leads.
The power switch charges the battery when PO1/PO2 are closed. This also isolates the output from the high voltage on the capacitor or the mains. Switch it the other way ( PO1/PO2 now open and PS1/PS2 closed ) and the unit is ready to Zap. Push the push button S1 and the battery gets a high voltage impulse through the SCR . The SCR on my unit is marked TY4004 . I guess any 600 volt 3 amp SCR should do.
THIS IS NOT FOR NEWBIES and in any case needs lots of CAUTION when using. Note that a battery needs to be zapped many times because it burns off only a few shorts with each Zap. Maybe 10 to 50 times to be really have some improvement I think.
I cannot find the magazine article but I did find a zapper that I made. I have no idea what changes I made , if any. It does zap the battery. I can't test the current unit as the capacitor has leaked and needs to be replaced.
There is HIGH VOLTAGE everywhere so if anyone tries it use CAUTION>>>CAUTION>>>>CAUTION.
Stand on an INSULATED surface and use just one hand. The unit better be fixed to a base board and you shouldn't need to touch it except the switches . The push button and power switch MUST be insulated types with plastic on the operating surface .
Some details;
PO1 , PO2,PS1,PS2 are the poles of a DPDT switch. The poles are all independent of each other. So that makes eight terminals on the switch , four on one side and four on the other. Flip the toggle one way and PO1 and PO2 are open and PS1 and PS2 are closed and vice versa.
S1 is a non locking push button.
D1 is a 1N4007 diode .
D2 is not an LED. Its a NEON LAMP.
C1 is a 32uF / 450 volt electrolytic cap .
All resistors are 1/2 watt .
Output to the battery to be zapped is taken across R5 . My unit has insulated crocodile clips on 1 foot long leads.
The power switch charges the battery when PO1/PO2 are closed. This also isolates the output from the high voltage on the capacitor or the mains. Switch it the other way ( PO1/PO2 now open and PS1/PS2 closed ) and the unit is ready to Zap. Push the push button S1 and the battery gets a high voltage impulse through the SCR . The SCR on my unit is marked TY4004 . I guess any 600 volt 3 amp SCR should do.
THIS IS NOT FOR NEWBIES and in any case needs lots of CAUTION when using. Note that a battery needs to be zapped many times because it burns off only a few shorts with each Zap. Maybe 10 to 50 times to be really have some improvement I think.
Attachments
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.