SY,macgyver10 wrote''Personally,if I were to make a test like this,I would make sure all ''measurable''differences were matched'(I add here ''matched''=masked so to make it impossible to measure),since the claim is most often that it's heard,but impossible to measure''. What i'm asking is,if we match(mask) all measurable differences between WAMM and LS3/5a which includes sound level,balance,etc...would you be able to hear any difference?If yes,at which areas?
Panicos K said:
But then you're not comparing these two speakers anymore, you're comparing two speakers that in all measurable parameters are identical.
This would be impossible to accomplish due to the electro-mechanical and acoustical nature of a loudspeaker. All measurable quantities would be a long list including matching the radiation patterns of the drivers, the phase relationships between drivers and their acoustical centers, size and shape of the baffle and enclosure, impedance curves, on and off axis frequency responses etc. etc. etc.
Again, it has nothing in common with testing a speaker cable.
macgyver10,of cource they are not the same cables,speakers,amplifiers,or whatever anymore.don't try to give any explanation why it is not possible to achieve such a thing.For me it's enough that even on a theoritical level you agree you wouldn't be able to tell any difference,although I wouldn't be surprised if by studying such possibility maybe there might be a way to do such a test.More complex perhaps but you never know.
Panicos K said:
However, I DO know, and I can assure you that you could NOT match the two speakers that you mentioned in every measurable parameter.
You could, however, match two pieces of speaker wire relatively easily. Particularly if that wire is the same piece just turned around end for end.
Also, "match" and "mask" have no similarity in the context of my posts. By matching two pieces of wire, I'm not suggesting that you change the electrical characteristics of the wire. I'm suggesting that you measure the signal at the speaker terminals, and check that frequency response, and amplitude are the same for both wires under test at listening levels.
I'm also suggesting that the amp and speakers be "high end" but not "esoteric" in as much as they won't be worried about varying LCR values as they pertain to wire (ie Cat5 high capacitance won't cause oscillation)
I'm suggesting making practical tests, not theoretical thought experiments for the purpose of argument. Those have their purpose, but are probably better for a theoretical physics forum, or philosophy forum.
panomaniac'when I was in the hi-fi business,one of the things I was careful when the speaker cable pair was made of two single runs,was that the + was pointing at the oposite direction than the - .So,if you hear or measure differences this arrangement of the two conductors will serve you better.In fact,only this way the cable will work correctly,no matter what overall direction you might prefer.
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Panicos K said:
Well, while you enjoy a hollow earth full of dinosaurs, a moon made of cheese and thousands of other things that are impossible, I'll continue to know that the two speakers you've mentioned will never "match" in all measurable parameters.
It's not a situation where a "theory" has been presented, and science can prove or disprove it. You might as well be attempting to make you and your dog "match" in every measurable parameter.
Mr. Macgyver has mentioned some very good points back in post #59.
In this test, or most any other, the choice of amps and speakers is important. Macgyver also wants cables with the same FR; I don't really care, as that should be part of what we are looking for.
If you have two cables that measure the same in L, C & R, they should sound the same. There is even the school of thought that small differences in L, C, & R will not make a difference in the audio spectrum, because the speaker impedance is so low that it nulls out the differences below ~20kHz.
But what if we have two cables that "should" sound alike, according to electrical theory? We put them to the test. Is there really a difference? Is it enough to hear, not just measure?
The test would be easy with the directional cables. Just connect one the "right" way, the other the "wrong" way. Any difference? Would be easy to tell.
Then we get back to what amp to use, and what speakers. Macgyver is right that it shouldn't be something too exotic or unstable. Just something of high quality and relatively standard technology. Are any fancy cable enthusiasts claiming that their cable only sounds better on a certain amp or a certain speaker? No. Some DIY folks feel that way, but not the cable sellers, or they couldn't sell many cables.
To begin the test we might like to try Monster Cable vs. Zip cord of the same gauge. Then perhaps Cat 5 vs. same gauge Zip. Does the different L&C of the Cat 5 really make a difference? Then silver vs. copper - Teflon vs. PVC, etc.
There are a lot of cables to test, so it could go on forever, but a choice of well known cables would be a start. Then we could move on to measure those same cables against no cable. That's right, NO cable. How?
You can't really have no cable, and get any sound, but you could get close. One side of the bridge could a very, very short cable, for example 3cm of 14 ga. solid copper (or silver) with no insulation, touching nothing but the amp and speaker. That could be established as a baseline. All other cables will deviate from that baseline, the difference can be found with the bridge.
We would hope that out speaker cable isn't changing the signal much, so the cable that changes it the least would be worth looking into. Does any cable change the signal enough over the baseline to be heard? If so, is it any more than the other cables?
That’s the sort of thing we want to know.
In this test, or most any other, the choice of amps and speakers is important. Macgyver also wants cables with the same FR; I don't really care, as that should be part of what we are looking for.
If you have two cables that measure the same in L, C & R, they should sound the same. There is even the school of thought that small differences in L, C, & R will not make a difference in the audio spectrum, because the speaker impedance is so low that it nulls out the differences below ~20kHz.
But what if we have two cables that "should" sound alike, according to electrical theory? We put them to the test. Is there really a difference? Is it enough to hear, not just measure?
The test would be easy with the directional cables. Just connect one the "right" way, the other the "wrong" way. Any difference? Would be easy to tell.
Then we get back to what amp to use, and what speakers. Macgyver is right that it shouldn't be something too exotic or unstable. Just something of high quality and relatively standard technology. Are any fancy cable enthusiasts claiming that their cable only sounds better on a certain amp or a certain speaker? No. Some DIY folks feel that way, but not the cable sellers, or they couldn't sell many cables.
To begin the test we might like to try Monster Cable vs. Zip cord of the same gauge. Then perhaps Cat 5 vs. same gauge Zip. Does the different L&C of the Cat 5 really make a difference? Then silver vs. copper - Teflon vs. PVC, etc.
There are a lot of cables to test, so it could go on forever, but a choice of well known cables would be a start. Then we could move on to measure those same cables against no cable. That's right, NO cable. How?
You can't really have no cable, and get any sound, but you could get close. One side of the bridge could a very, very short cable, for example 3cm of 14 ga. solid copper (or silver) with no insulation, touching nothing but the amp and speaker. That could be established as a baseline. All other cables will deviate from that baseline, the difference can be found with the bridge.
We would hope that out speaker cable isn't changing the signal much, so the cable that changes it the least would be worth looking into. Does any cable change the signal enough over the baseline to be heard? If so, is it any more than the other cables?
That’s the sort of thing we want to know.
Panicos K said:
Me too, a dog's life looks like something I'd enjoy, but it's impossible...
Speaking of Dogs, if they were the ones to have designed our stereo gear, rest assured that the "interesting stuff" would be far higher in frequency than humans can hear, and require considerably different design parameters.
Panomaniac,
One of the most under-rated audio engineering geniuses is IMHO Bob Carver. Read the "controversy" portion of this article, where he used "difference testing" to succesful show up the Stereophool crew:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver
panicos might find this interesting too, because it shows the successful implementation of "matching" amplifier parameters through measurement, and then passing a test with a room full of "golden ears".
I'm only posting this as a illustration of Panomaniac's test technique used in a practical application, I'm not opening a debate on whether or not anyone likes or dislikes Bob Carver and his products.
One of the most under-rated audio engineering geniuses is IMHO Bob Carver. Read the "controversy" portion of this article, where he used "difference testing" to succesful show up the Stereophool crew:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver
panicos might find this interesting too, because it shows the successful implementation of "matching" amplifier parameters through measurement, and then passing a test with a room full of "golden ears".
I'm only posting this as a illustration of Panomaniac's test technique used in a practical application, I'm not opening a debate on whether or not anyone likes or dislikes Bob Carver and his products.
Thanks MacG.
Hadn't seen that article before. Bob Carver was a clever fellow. He used to claim that he could imitate the sound of any amp just by changing the damping factor of his amps. Some people were convinced, others were not.
Guess that is what the controversy was about. Didn't know he used a bridge test.
Hadn't seen that article before. Bob Carver was a clever fellow. He used to claim that he could imitate the sound of any amp just by changing the damping factor of his amps. Some people were convinced, others were not.
Guess that is what the controversy was about. Didn't know he used a bridge test.
panomaniac said:
I think what was particularly innovative of some of his amps, however, is that he offered you the choice of the high Z output (low DF) and the low Z output simultaneously so that you could Bi-Wire your speakers and get the "best of both worlds". Votage source for the woofer, and current source for the mids and tweets.
Another thing that you have to give him credit for, is that he "listened" to his amps and designed them accordingly. Once the math and engineering was done, he had favourite source material that he would use to evaluate and fine tune the product.
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