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Old 3rd November 2006, 04:42 PM   #51
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panomaniac'when I was in the hi-fi business,one of the things I was careful when the speaker cable pair was made of two single runs,was that the + was pointing at the oposite direction than the - .So,if you hear or measure differences this arrangement of the two conductors will serve you better.In fact,only this way the cable will work correctly,no matter what overall direction you might prefer.





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Old 3rd November 2006, 06:55 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Panicos K
macgyver10,scientific research starts on a theory,so I believe that nothing is impossible.I am also sure you understood what I meant,and I accept that yoy deffended your position well.It is the test method I meant.

Well, while you enjoy a hollow earth full of dinosaurs, a moon made of cheese and thousands of other things that are impossible, I'll continue to know that the two speakers you've mentioned will never "match" in all measurable parameters.

It's not a situation where a "theory" has been presented, and science can prove or disprove it. You might as well be attempting to make you and your dog "match" in every measurable parameter.
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Old 3rd November 2006, 07:16 PM   #53
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macgyver10,I'm 46 and I assure you that many times in my life,I would prefer to match myself and my dog in many more parameters than you might think.
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Old 3rd November 2006, 07:55 PM   #54
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Mr. Macgyver has mentioned some very good points back in post #59.

In this test, or most any other, the choice of amps and speakers is important. Macgyver also wants cables with the same FR; I don't really care, as that should be part of what we are looking for.

If you have two cables that measure the same in L, C & R, they should sound the same. There is even the school of thought that small differences in L, C, & R will not make a difference in the audio spectrum, because the speaker impedance is so low that it nulls out the differences below ~20kHz.

But what if we have two cables that "should" sound alike, according to electrical theory? We put them to the test. Is there really a difference? Is it enough to hear, not just measure?

The test would be easy with the directional cables. Just connect one the "right" way, the other the "wrong" way. Any difference? Would be easy to tell.

Then we get back to what amp to use, and what speakers. Macgyver is right that it shouldn't be something too exotic or unstable. Just something of high quality and relatively standard technology. Are any fancy cable enthusiasts claiming that their cable only sounds better on a certain amp or a certain speaker? No. Some DIY folks feel that way, but not the cable sellers, or they couldn't sell many cables.

To begin the test we might like to try Monster Cable vs. Zip cord of the same gauge. Then perhaps Cat 5 vs. same gauge Zip. Does the different L&C of the Cat 5 really make a difference? Then silver vs. copper - Teflon vs. PVC, etc.

There are a lot of cables to test, so it could go on forever, but a choice of well known cables would be a start. Then we could move on to measure those same cables against no cable. That's right, NO cable. How?

You can't really have no cable, and get any sound, but you could get close. One side of the bridge could a very, very short cable, for example 3cm of 14 ga. solid copper (or silver) with no insulation, touching nothing but the amp and speaker. That could be established as a baseline. All other cables will deviate from that baseline, the difference can be found with the bridge.

We would hope that out speaker cable isn't changing the signal much, so the cable that changes it the least would be worth looking into. Does any cable change the signal enough over the baseline to be heard? If so, is it any more than the other cables?

Thatís the sort of thing we want to know.
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Old 3rd November 2006, 11:07 PM   #55
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Originally posted by Panicos K
macgyver10,I'm 46 and I assure you that many times in my life,I would prefer to match myself and my dog in many more parameters than you might think.

Me too, a dog's life looks like something I'd enjoy, but it's impossible...

Speaking of Dogs, if they were the ones to have designed our stereo gear, rest assured that the "interesting stuff" would be far higher in frequency than humans can hear, and require considerably different design parameters.
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Old 4th November 2006, 12:33 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by panomaniac
Mr. Macgyver has mentioned some very good points back in post #59.
Ooops! I meant post #49!

This thread has gone to the dogs, anyhow.
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Old 4th November 2006, 02:51 AM   #57
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Panomaniac,

One of the most under-rated audio engineering geniuses is IMHO Bob Carver. Read the "controversy" portion of this article, where he used "difference testing" to succesful show up the Stereophool crew:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver

panicos might find this interesting too, because it shows the successful implementation of "matching" amplifier parameters through measurement, and then passing a test with a room full of "golden ears".

I'm only posting this as a illustration of Panomaniac's test technique used in a practical application, I'm not opening a debate on whether or not anyone likes or dislikes Bob Carver and his products.
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Old 4th November 2006, 03:40 AM   #58
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Thanks MacG.

Hadn't seen that article before. Bob Carver was a clever fellow. He used to claim that he could imitate the sound of any amp just by changing the damping factor of his amps. Some people were convinced, others were not.

Guess that is what the controversy was about. Didn't know he used a bridge test.
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Old 4th November 2006, 05:50 AM   #59
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Originally posted by panomaniac
Thanks MacG.

Hadn't seen that article before. Bob Carver was a clever fellow. He used to claim that he could imitate the sound of any amp just by changing the damping factor of his amps. Some people were convinced, others were not.

Guess that is what the controversy was about. Didn't know he used a bridge test.

I think what was particularly innovative of some of his amps, however, is that he offered you the choice of the high Z output (low DF) and the low Z output simultaneously so that you could Bi-Wire your speakers and get the "best of both worlds". Votage source for the woofer, and current source for the mids and tweets.

Another thing that you have to give him credit for, is that he "listened" to his amps and designed them accordingly. Once the math and engineering was done, he had favourite source material that he would use to evaluate and fine tune the product.
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