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Old 2nd November 2006, 12:47 PM   #11
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SY,yes we are not test mics,that's why we listen to music and not series resistors,parallel capacitors and boxes full of all kinds of electrical staff,only to hide any difference.
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Old 2nd November 2006, 01:11 PM   #12
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Panomaniac,it seems that not only they have missed the point,but actually they told you you are right.They said gauge size and inferior materials have audible difference,and there is nothing paranormal to this.Ofcource there is nothing paranormal to this.It is perfectly normal,and either you can hear it or not.That's why I think you won.
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Old 2nd November 2006, 01:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
No-one disputes that differences may be measurable with the right test setup
and the point that a lot here do not seem to get - you will only hear a signal in this setup when the different parameters of the cables will "create" a difference signal that is perceivable.

If no difference signal is audible - even when the measurement shows some signal present - than it clearly shows that those signals are below the threshold of audibility.
And if they are below the threshold of audibility - they are unimportant and any claim as to audibility of cables can be thrown into the trashbin of unsubstantiated claims.
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Old 2nd November 2006, 03:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Panicos K
Panomaniac,it seems that not only they have missed the point,but actually they told you you are right.
Actually, it appears that you have missed the point. SY summed it up nicely, it's been repeated several times, but you continue to talk about "what you hear" as some kind of evidence of fact.

The point to all of this, is that just as there are visual "illusions" for the same reasons that SY mentioned earlier, there are auditory "illusions" too.

I agree with panomaniac and his conclusions that if differences can't be measured, then they can't be heard...I've been saying that all along.

Other's (you perhaps) still maintain that the measurements are inferior to your own ears. If you claim that, then I say "prove it".

Panomaniac:

All you've done, albeit quite ingeniously, is devise another "scientific" test. This will not convince Panicos K that his ears aren't still superior to your test set up.

As I suggested before, Panicos K is the one who needs to apply for the JREF prize. His claims are testable. Also, one can predict with 100% accuracy that should he fail a test, that he helps to contrive, it will not change his faith that he can hear things we can't measure.

Finally, I will say this (and SY effectively said it too) I BELIEVE that Panicos K hears what he says he hears. I just don't believe there's anything actually there to be heard.

Since the brain is the most influential part of the sense of hearing, only Panicos K knows what his brain is telling him he hears. That doesn't mean that his ears are actually sending those messages to his brain, though.
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Old 2nd November 2006, 03:31 PM   #15
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Macgyver10.

''......my brain?'' Thank God it's not more and capable to fire hostility even to you.Brain?What brain?
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Old 2nd November 2006, 03:44 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Panicos K
Macgyver10.

''......my brain?'' Thank God it's not more and capable to fire hostility even to you.Brain?What brain?

No hostility was ever intended by me. And I'm quite certain you have a very active and formidable brain. Please don't take my comments as some sort of attack. I only use you as an example, because you have been the most vocal with your assertions.

I DO believe you hear what you say you do. I also believe that under the right circumstances I could "hear" exactly the same things. It's a common human trait of hearing; that our minds can construct what isn't there. It has much in common with "placebo effect", and it's very real. It can be removed from the equation, however, with a properly constructed (not necessarily ABX) double blind test.

The scientific tests which uncover the true nature of why some people claim to "hear" what we can not measure will not be in the field of electronics or physics, however.

It will be in the field of biology, and studying the inner workings of the human brain.
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Old 2nd November 2006, 03:59 PM   #17
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macgyver10,see my post 886 in''do speaker cables make a difference?
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Old 2nd November 2006, 04:08 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Panicos K
macgyver10,see my post 886 in''do speaker cables make a difference?
Yes, I read it. And I don't disagree with it either.

I also don't think it strengthens your position, but rather mine.

Learning to listen for certain things in the music is part of what makes music such an enjoyable hobby. Learning to hear the "small" things that most others don't is also important.

However, hearing things that aren't there is -- spooky, to say the least.
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Old 2nd November 2006, 04:22 PM   #19
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macgyver10,many things I learned from this good friend,especially things that had to do with classical music.For example I learned that some instruments must be on the left side of the stage,so my system had no problem as I might have thought with it's L/R balance.I like some classical music but that's not my everyday style so I couldn't know that information.As for the small details you said, it is not something you learn how to hear them.
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Old 2nd November 2006, 04:37 PM   #20
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Originally posted by Panicos K
As for the small details you said, it is not something you learn how to hear them.

Of course you can learn how to hear them. The more you understand the music, the more you will hear in it.

There are many things that so called "tin-ears" can't hear, but the "golden-eared" can. Much of this is just a matter of study, and experience. I have no qualm with that.

But if you say you can hear things that just aren't there, for instance -- the "direction" that your speaker cable is connected, then I suggest that you're fooling yourself.

Which brings me to another potential JREF challenge, is there somebody who will claim that their "directional" silver foil high-end "burned-in" speaker cable sounds different when the "direction" is reversed?

Now we're testing the exact same cable, only it's "direction" has changed. Not sure how we'd double blind that....
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