I do this for a sanity check about once in 18 months -- purchase a copy of Stereophile -- interconnects at $965/meter not expensive? <p>If you buy more than a pair you have spent enough to get a Grand Tier Metropolitan Opera subscription, or you could fly to NY to Vienna, get a first class hotel in Salzburg and hear the Festspiele, throw in Leipzig also.
I agree that $965/meter is a good deal of money. But then, speaking as a manufacturer, I've paid single bills of around $20,000 for internal wiring.
The raw material costs for some of the high-purity stuff is bloody painful.
regards, jonathan carr
PS. I've also paid similar amounts for single shipments of resistors and of capacitors. Although in all cases I felt that the benefits were worth the costs, maybe I'm just another sucker.
The raw material costs for some of the high-purity stuff is bloody painful.
regards, jonathan carr
PS. I've also paid similar amounts for single shipments of resistors and of capacitors. Although in all cases I felt that the benefits were worth the costs, maybe I'm just another sucker.
well, you too should read the explanation
I was fortunate not to have to take inorganic chemistry since I had so many physics credits, but the explanation of the crystal boundary problem just seemed a stretch in the review of the cable. You get this kind of pseudo-science all the time in from the nut end of the political spectrum (moreso in Europe than the US, probably not!). <p>As a former editor it too appears that they let a young writer loose with a word-processor and there are various macro's that they can engage to describe "top end air" etc. The language of high end audio magazines is hackneyed to say the least.
I was fortunate not to have to take inorganic chemistry since I had so many physics credits, but the explanation of the crystal boundary problem just seemed a stretch in the review of the cable. You get this kind of pseudo-science all the time in from the nut end of the political spectrum (moreso in Europe than the US, probably not!). <p>As a former editor it too appears that they let a young writer loose with a word-processor and there are various macro's that they can engage to describe "top end air" etc. The language of high end audio magazines is hackneyed to say the least.
How can we know where to draw the line?
Audio magazine once had a couple of articles by an electrical engineer which purported to prove that 16 gauge zip cord was as good as any speaker cable out there for runs of 15 feet or so. He measured inductance, capacitance, etc.
I am not a believer in expensive cables or interconnects. But even I can hear the difference between 12 gauge and 16 gauge speaker wire. That is what I generally use-12 gauge wire for the connection to the amp.
Frankly, I don't know what anyone else is hearing. Generic 12 gauge works for me.
Yet, even simple generic 12 gauge might not be explainable. What is the gauge of the wire in the woofer's voice coil-something like 36? How many feet are there in that voice coil? A lot more than 15 feet. You would think that even 22 gauge zip cord could be used for the connection to the amp, but people would definitely detect that difference.
True, audio is a collection of mechanical and electrical devices, and all characterisitics come down to the behavior of those devices. Still, I don't think it is unreasonable to consider the possibility that not all effects are completely known yet.
I read somewhere that scientists studying Stonehenge or some such ancient place discovered some astronomical effect that they were not aware of, but the ancients were. With no audio video systems to speak of, I guess those people back then had lots and lots of time to stare at the nightime sky, LOL. It just goes to show that even well studied scientific effects are not a closed book.
My problem is that some of these people out to "debunk" some of these "myths" seem to be really radical and go against things that I think are reasonably well established. On the other hand, some of these effects that expensive solutions are supposed to cure seem a little strained.
How can we know where to draw the line?
Audio magazine once had a couple of articles by an electrical engineer which purported to prove that 16 gauge zip cord was as good as any speaker cable out there for runs of 15 feet or so. He measured inductance, capacitance, etc.
I am not a believer in expensive cables or interconnects. But even I can hear the difference between 12 gauge and 16 gauge speaker wire. That is what I generally use-12 gauge wire for the connection to the amp.
Frankly, I don't know what anyone else is hearing. Generic 12 gauge works for me.
Yet, even simple generic 12 gauge might not be explainable. What is the gauge of the wire in the woofer's voice coil-something like 36? How many feet are there in that voice coil? A lot more than 15 feet. You would think that even 22 gauge zip cord could be used for the connection to the amp, but people would definitely detect that difference.
True, audio is a collection of mechanical and electrical devices, and all characterisitics come down to the behavior of those devices. Still, I don't think it is unreasonable to consider the possibility that not all effects are completely known yet.
I read somewhere that scientists studying Stonehenge or some such ancient place discovered some astronomical effect that they were not aware of, but the ancients were. With no audio video systems to speak of, I guess those people back then had lots and lots of time to stare at the nightime sky, LOL. It just goes to show that even well studied scientific effects are not a closed book.
My problem is that some of these people out to "debunk" some of these "myths" seem to be really radical and go against things that I think are reasonably well established. On the other hand, some of these effects that expensive solutions are supposed to cure seem a little strained.
How can we know where to draw the line?
Well, they're not publishing in referreed journals
people quickly lose sight of the fact that it's music, music first and music foremost.
there is a difference in cables, I know that some of the stuff I built 30 years ago with oxidized RCA connectors did sound dreadful.
... but as a thread going a few months ago (with respect to "mains interconnects") there are some really simple things one can do -- like grounding -- to help out. Perhaps pop the circuit breaker off, remove the cover to the wall receptacle and tighten up the connections. As a ham radio operator I am reminded of a nasty case of RFI which was traceable to a loose lightbulb and intermittent connection in a hallway. Then too, why stop at the wall receptacle, why not cable all the way back to the pole, and why stop there --- why not convince the utility district to go all the way back to the substation. Perhaps it makes a difference whether your system is connected to a coal generating facility as compared to a natural gas gennie, <em> reduction ad absurdum </em>
people quickly lose sight of the fact that it's music, music first and music foremost.
there is a difference in cables, I know that some of the stuff I built 30 years ago with oxidized RCA connectors did sound dreadful.
... but as a thread going a few months ago (with respect to "mains interconnects") there are some really simple things one can do -- like grounding -- to help out. Perhaps pop the circuit breaker off, remove the cover to the wall receptacle and tighten up the connections. As a ham radio operator I am reminded of a nasty case of RFI which was traceable to a loose lightbulb and intermittent connection in a hallway. Then too, why stop at the wall receptacle, why not cable all the way back to the pole, and why stop there --- why not convince the utility district to go all the way back to the substation. Perhaps it makes a difference whether your system is connected to a coal generating facility as compared to a natural gas gennie, <em> reduction ad absurdum </em>
Havoc:
>As a manufacturer, did you get only 25m of cable in order to pay 20000? You need to put it into perspective, put a figure on how many you got for the money.<
That is one valid point, but another is that for custom-order conductors (and other raw materials), there is a minimum order requirement that must be met no matter what. In other words, you have to come up with the 20 grand whether you use only 1m or everything that you bought.
Back in the 80s, Hitachi Cables introduced LC-OFC, and we purchased reels of it, had it processed into magnet wire, and used it in our cartridges. Perhaps a year or so later, Nippon Mining introduced 6-N copper, and we shifted our cartridges to that. A by-product of the transition was that we were left with lots of 0.04mm LC-OFC magnet wire that we were no longer interested in using.
I don't remember what we did with the LC-OFC. Probably threw it away.
regards, jonathan carr
>As a manufacturer, did you get only 25m of cable in order to pay 20000? You need to put it into perspective, put a figure on how many you got for the money.<
That is one valid point, but another is that for custom-order conductors (and other raw materials), there is a minimum order requirement that must be met no matter what. In other words, you have to come up with the 20 grand whether you use only 1m or everything that you bought.
Back in the 80s, Hitachi Cables introduced LC-OFC, and we purchased reels of it, had it processed into magnet wire, and used it in our cartridges. Perhaps a year or so later, Nippon Mining introduced 6-N copper, and we shifted our cartridges to that. A by-product of the transition was that we were left with lots of 0.04mm LC-OFC magnet wire that we were no longer interested in using.
I don't remember what we did with the LC-OFC. Probably threw it away.
regards, jonathan carr
jcarr
you should have hired a graphics design firm, booked lunch with stereophile editors at Le Cirque and then fashioned the cables into esoteric interconnecting cables.
Too bad this was in the days before EBay. You can sell anything, and I mean anything on EBay -- as long as you honestly describe it.
coincidentally, my dentist actually knows what he's doing, I think he has a complete machine shop in his basement.
Jack
you should have hired a graphics design firm, booked lunch with stereophile editors at Le Cirque and then fashioned the cables into esoteric interconnecting cables.
Too bad this was in the days before EBay. You can sell anything, and I mean anything on EBay -- as long as you honestly describe it.
coincidentally, my dentist actually knows what he's doing, I think he has a complete machine shop in his basement.
Jack
you guys are forgetting the little inline fuse with a tiny strand of wire on the AC side!
since the length of the wire has just as much importance as the diameter, very short hexfet leads still have a very low resistance. plus feedback always helps -- why dont we include the speaker lead in a nested feedback loop?
since the length of the wire has just as much importance as the diameter, very short hexfet leads still have a very low resistance. plus feedback always helps -- why dont we include the speaker lead in a nested feedback loop?
Ok, I am a Stereophile subscriber. hold on, hold on, It was initially given to me as a gift but I have since renewed it. My interest in the magazine in in the scientific side. Yes, there is some. I read Matt Fremers reviews because he likes to run some fairly accurate subjective tests on the equipment. Not always applicable ones, but interesting anyway. But the primary reason I read through the magazine is to see the different designs. I like to look at many of the exotic case designs (useless ones and all) and the layouts of the opened cases. To me this is information worth considering in my own projects. I make all my own interconnects because I enjoy it and don't pay any real attention to the hype around that scene. Sometimes bad information is as useful as much as good information.
I'm dentist and Stereophile subscriber 
, and I fancy myself a music-lover 
. Stereophile is not technical magazine, but you can find good measurements of the tested products and (sometimes) even get a good description of a sound- although I never take listening tests very serious in any magazine. Nowdays, when audio magazines are slowly fading away, Stereophile offers quite interesting audio tests and columns, and subscription is cheap!
Joel: not all dentists are alike: I was editor in chief of only croatian audio magazine "Hi-Fi" for 5 years, have ca. 1500 CD's (mostly jazz), currently listening music on Tannoy 15" HPD's, DIY 2-way Accutons, DIY 300B SE amp, Gainclone, xformer attenuator passive pre, DIY TDA1541s1 based nonoversampling dac etc.
, and I fancy myself a music-lover . Stereophile is not technical magazine, but you can find good measurements of the tested products and (sometimes) even get a good description of a sound- although I never take listening tests very serious in any magazine. Nowdays, when audio magazines are slowly fading away, Stereophile offers quite interesting audio tests and columns, and subscription is cheap!Joel: not all dentists are alike: I was editor in chief of only croatian audio magazine "Hi-Fi" for 5 years, have ca. 1500 CD's (mostly jazz), currently listening music on Tannoy 15" HPD's, DIY 2-way Accutons, DIY 300B SE amp, Gainclone, xformer attenuator passive pre, DIY TDA1541s1 based nonoversampling dac etc.
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