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Old 2nd October 2006, 09:54 PM   #1
bulgin is offline bulgin  South Africa
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Default Cryogenics

Hi all

Does anyone know if it would be possible to build a micro cryogenics plant suitable for home use to process small audio devices like for example phono cartridges? I know liquefied nitrogen is used and the target temp is around -180 degrees C?

What are your opinions about this technique? Is it all hogwash mumbo-jumbo? Another stoopid question: If one has to re-arrange the 'molecular structurality of the crystals', why not fry the darned object in a microwave - just think of the possibilities: a rare, medium or well done needle. Rare for Nat, Medium for Diana and Well done for Billy...

Jus thinkin

bulgin
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Old 2nd October 2006, 10:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Cryogenics

Quote:
Originally posted by bulgin
What are your opinions about this technique? Is it all hogwash mumbo-jumbo?
Not hogwash at all (althou be assured some nay-sayers will chime in). Often it needs to be a more complex treatment than just sinking than just immersing parts in LN. For 1 you need to make sure it is done in a manner that doesn't introduce enuff thermal shock to break the item being treated....

As to simple and easy, i've heard of experiments being done in nested cardboard boxes. Suspend the device for treatment in a small sealed carboard box. Suspend this in a larger cardboard box. Fill the outer box with LN (i don't know if it needs to be lined). When the LN has boiled off you are done. Crude, but the experiments proved effective.

Most people are keeping their exact techniques close to the chest -- the only way to keep a competitive adantage.

Note: LN is cold. VERY COLD. Be very cautious and follow all safety procedures when handling. I'm sure that careless use could cause grave bodily harm, and may even cause enuff shock to cause death.

dave
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Old 2nd October 2006, 11:35 PM   #3
phn is offline phn  Sweden
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NASA uses it, so it's real alright. But don't expect them to cryo treat their electronics. And cryo treating your cart is liable to ruin it. There are different materials in a cart, and they don't react the same to cold--some contract more than others. Things will only get more brittle after cryo treatment. I cannot see how anything being used in audio could benefit from cryo.
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Old 2nd October 2006, 11:40 PM   #4
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Either way be careful with it as Dave has mentioned. Full face gear, long sleeves, pants, work boots and welding gloves is what we used when pouring it into infrared cameras. Awkward yes, but no frostbite.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 12:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by phn
And cryo treating your cart is liable to ruin it.
Good poke. Yes. Cryoing a speaker usually requires the magnet to be remagnitized to regain its full strength. A cartridge has magnets in it too, so it would be in the same boat.

I know some carts get parts cyroed before assembly.... it should do wonders for the wire & the canteleiver.

dave
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Old 3rd October 2006, 12:23 AM   #6
jsa_ind is offline jsa_ind  United States
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Dear Bulquin,

I started a thread some time ago on the same topic Cryogenic Processing Does It Work

Boy I was ducking for cover, the war was fast & furious ! :-) !!

Moderators taking sides.....replies written every minute...boy it was fun while it lasted.......

Regards,

Junia.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 12:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: Cryogenics

Quote:
Originally posted by bulgin
Hi all

Does anyone know if it would be possible to build a micro cryogenics plant suitable for home use to process small audio devices like for example phono cartridges? I know liquefied nitrogen is used and the target temp is around -180 degrees C?

What are your opinions about this technique? Is it all hogwash mumbo-jumbo? Another stoopid question: If one has to re-arrange the 'molecular structurality of the crystals', why not fry the darned object in a microwave - just think of the possibilities: a rare, medium or well done needle. Rare for Nat, Medium for Diana and Well done for Billy...

Jus thinkin

bulgin
My wife has used LN2 cryo to "re-arrange" the molecules in wart virii lesions on kids arms... they turn black and fall off!!!.. So... yes it does have a measurable effect on some things... for sure... and the effect CAN be heard!

John L.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 12:55 AM   #8
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Another warning: do your experiments with LN in a well-ventilated area! In other words, leave a window or door to the outside air open! As the nitrogen boils off, probably a lot more rapidly than you planned for, it will displace oxygen in a closed room.

This has killed people, very quickly. Both in aerospace and commercial refrigeration; people enter an area that's had all the oxygen flushed out and lost conciousness before realizing what was going on. Death from oxygen deprivation only takes about four minute--but you can go down in seconds.

Another issue with cryo treatment of materials is how it's done. It can be very useful in some areas of metalurgy, improving the strength and hardness of metals through a kind of annealing of the crystal structure of the metal. This may or may not be useful for copper or silver conductors; you'll have to run the experiments and judge for yourself. All bets are off with plastics; I don't expect improvements with cryo treatments of your precious CDs, and especially not with even more precious vinyl LPs.

Just dunking the material isn't the best way; the idea is to >reduce< material stresses, not introduce them, so gradual cooling and warming is probably to most important part, followed by dwell time at cryo temps. My concept would be to have a dewar of LN with an insulated hose going to a double-thick foam cooler, preferably nested. The insulated hose will convey cold nitrogen gas to the cooler, bringing the temperature down slowly. Let it sit and chill until the nitrogen has all boiled off, repeat as your budget permits.

Again, be careful with this stuff! Don't end up a stiff!
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Old 3rd October 2006, 01:38 AM   #9
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Personally, I think it's the perfect snake oil.

And, maybe the perfect way to make money:
1) Set up a cryo-treating company.
2) Say that as it's a dangerous process so no-one can see their parts being treated.
3) Take in the parts, charging a high (but not too high) fee.
4) Give them back 'treated' and no-one will be willing to say that they can't hear the difference.

I've listened to parts, cables (and whole amplifiers!) that have been cryo'd - in some cases before and after - and have never heard a difference. But then, my moniker might give you a clue as to why that is. And logically, I can't see why freezing and thawing anything should improve it's sound. Maybe that also affects my ability to hear differences.

And again, if you do it:
Quote:
Originally posted by Damon Hill
Again, be careful with this stuff! Don't end up a stiff!

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Old 3rd October 2006, 03:29 AM   #10
maxro is offline maxro  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by phn
NASA uses it, so it's real alright.
So, using that logic, man must have landed on the moon?

max
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