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Old 29th August 2006, 03:50 PM   #11
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A most exelent post! I didn't want to discurage either. Being 14 and wanting to build speakers is freaken awsome. I wish I could go back in time.

I can not stress enough tho on keeping your playback levels at normal volumes. At least most of the time. We all jam every now and then. I've met too many older people who had litteraly lost hearing from front row seats at a concert. I guess they were louder in the 70s then they are now. I wouldn't know, I missed it. It's sad and anoying to have to raise your voice and repeat yourself to someone who is only in their 40s. Or, you have to speak in the right ear.

I am extreamly lucky to hear as well as I do as I did some stupid things when I was younger. Mainly listening to headphones too loud. That was stupid, but most kids do it because parents don't complain about loud music they don't like.

Back in the dolby digital days before DVDs, I got myself a JVC hifi VCR at a store called Good Vibes. At the time, it was either that or a laser disk. Anyway, back then, a good VCR wasn't exacly cheap and since I had spent money at the store, I wanted to hear the HT they had setup. It was cool, but the play back volume was insain. The speakers were all klipsch and the fronts were HUGE. I don't know the model, but they were very tall and wide. Every speaker had its' on mono amp and every speaker had it's own powered sub. The totall amount of power was probably well over 1000 watts. The demo was a THX demo laser disk. The preamp might have been one of the first 5.1 decoders on the market. Anyway, to this day, that was probably the loudest thing I have ever heard and while listening to it, my clothes where moving and I could feel the bass hits on my chest. The system was more then powerfull enough to fill a full size theater.

The fact that I can still pick out clear notes in the background in my music is nothing short of a miracle. My brother n law tested my ears about 6 months ago and my hearing cuts off in the 24Khz range. I am one lucky SOB! I'll be 32 next month. Sadly, on the 11th.
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Old 29th August 2006, 04:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by gvr4ever
...my hearing cuts off in the 24Khz range. I am one lucky SOB! I'll be 32 next month. Sadly, on the 11th.
Too bad about the 11th.

24kHz you are not only lucky but gifted! I did a lot of damage when I was young but it doesn't seem too bad. I can hear to 16kHz in the left and just over 18kHz on the right. I am 36 years old. When I joined the army at 19 it was 16kHz on the left and 20kHz on the right. I feel lucky but 24kHz jeez you'd be hearing some stuff I never heard in my lifetime.

Back to speakers...Big speakers and big amps are BIG fun. Don't knock it until you try it. Small speakers can be easier to build and may be easier to tune for good results. Who knows, perhaps punkrokr will build giant speakers and then get into DJ-ing. I think it is important to work your way up and build experience as you go. A small set of speakers would only take a month of your time or even a few weekends? You gotta get some skills together before the big one.

punkrokr1701 if you are cutting the wood, you will require some practise. Dad's tools? Dad's help? My dad got kicked out of the house so I just did it on my own and I got into a pile of trouble but it worked out in the end.

Shawn.
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Old 29th August 2006, 05:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by TomWaits

Too bad about the 11th.

24kHz you are not only lucky but gifted! I did a lot of damage when I was young but it doesn't seem too bad. I can hear to 16kHz in the left and just over 18kHz on the right. I am 36 years old. When I joined the army at 19 it was 16kHz on the left and 20kHz on the right. I feel lucky but 24kHz jeez you'd be hearing some stuff I never heard in my lifetime.

Back to speakers...Big speakers and big amps are BIG fun. Don't knock it until you try it. Small speakers can be easier to build and may be easier to tune for good results. Who knows, perhaps punkrokr will build giant speakers and then get into DJ-ing. I think it is important to work your way up and build experience as you go. A small set of speakers would only take a month of your time or even a few weekends? You gotta get some skills together before the big one.

punkrokr1701 if you are cutting the wood, you will require some practise. Dad's tools? Dad's help? My dad got kicked out of the house so I just did it on my own and I got into a pile of trouble but it worked out in the end.

Shawn.

I don't know about gifted, but it is nice. Sometimes it works aginst me tho. My ears are over sensitive and it doesn't take long for high notes, or just plain high pitch noises to give me a headach. I don't aways get a headach, but they still bother me. Most people can't even hear what I'm complaining about. I used to acually think that I was just hearing things, but I heard a failing color wheel on my folks DLP 3 months before anyone else started complaining about the noise. It was ear percing to me and when I complined about it, no one else heard it.

The coolest part about all of it is having a love for music. The downside is, I will probably never have a system I will be happy with. I also don't know anyone who is really in to having a great sounding stereo. That has put a major delay in me being a DIYer and the only reason I started loving good sounding stereo's is because for some strange reason my friends very old grandmother had bought a respectable stereo. She had a harmon kardon amp, speakers unknown, but they sounded better then anything I had ever heard, and a turn table, CD player, tape deck, headphones, the whole package. At the time I was about 13 or so and I couldn't even come close to being able to afford anything like it. My first amp and speakers SUCKED!!!! I couldn't stand it anymore and I acually had to save up all summer long to get used Polk Audio M5Jr speakers and a Onkyo amp and cd player. I really wish I knew people who were in to DIY audio stuff when I was younger. I got a LOT of making up to do, but I guess as long as I have above average ears, age doesn't matter as much. At the same time tho, time is against me and it is only a matter of time before my hearing starts to go away.
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Old 30th August 2006, 01:11 PM   #14
Schaef is offline Schaef  United States
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I just went back and started looking at the speakers punkrokr actually listed, and I have to say, DON'T DO IT!!!

First, I couldn't find any specs on the Pyle PYM1298 you listed, which means its probably crap. Second the specs I saw on a guess of the Brutus doesn't look all that impressive either. But then again, they're car speakers.

So, first rule for punkrokr, stay away from car speakers for home audio.

Second rule, if you can't find specs listed beyond frequency range and wattage, stay far away. You want a speaker that you can model to find the optimum box size for. So you want speakers that list things like Qts, Xmax, Qes, etc.

Next, if you have MS Excel, go download unibox.xls, its a pretty easy to use spreadsheet program that allows you to enter all of the parameters I mentioned and it will show you frequency response, and box sizes, and then lets you adjust things until you get what you want. It draws pretty pictures that are easy to understand, and then you can see how the car speakers compare to home audio speakers.

I think that may be enough for now, go do a little more research and you'll be much happier in the end.
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Old 30th August 2006, 11:09 PM   #15
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Yeh, I've decided not to use anything car audio related.

I got a new contact who owns a pro audio equipment store and I'm pretty sure that he is going to help me out on all of this, the enclosure, right parts, speakers, crossovers etc. But of course that's not for certain cause I don't personally knoe this guy he's a friend of one of my friend's dad. I just got this info today when I mentioned my plans to some friends. But just to be safe I'll say that's a no go.

Anyway, I'm gonna do what I think is the best route and like you guys said countless times and built a smaller set of speakers.l

I just found out that I was ripped off yesterday when I was doing some research on the "white van scam" and I found out that the pair of Skyline speakers I purchased in the post office parking lot was a peice of s***, I just got them a week before and hadn't bothered hooking up due to technical problems with my amp/ A/V receiver. When I found out that I was scammed out of $400, I was f****** p***** so I went and took my first amp which I got
from my first system, a $200 boombox with 180 watt 3-way speakers, and a 160 watt powered subwoofer. I knew that amp could supply around 500 watts for the speakers and had a seperate amp for the subwoofer which I also researched and found to have a output of 200 watts.

So I took that out of my closet and rewired it so that it would be able to power the supposed power raings on the speakers.

I hooked up the speakers and the subwoofer on each cabinet turned out to be a blown woofer painted silver, with a little more inspection I found out that the tweeters were silver painted paper and the drivers made a scraching sound.

So I took a break calmed down and decided that well now I got a set of cabinets, and they are made of boston cherry wood, hey why not start with them so I took out the speakers and threw them in my collection of old, busted, and out dated speakers. The cabinets have no crossovers or any thing so I'm gonna start out with this for the experience and work my way up to my original plan.
Oh yeh, don't think I'm not gonna build the 7ft monsters I originally posted.

Here the speaker's I need to pirchase four 6.5 inch drivers,two 3.175 inch and two 10 inch subwoofers. That's for both cabinets.
But I want to have a set of cabinets with powerful tone and precise punch so if anyone know where I can find speaker's that will meet my expectations please tell me, but keep in mind I can only spend 600 on this maybe 800 at the most. So please don't send me to a site where they want 400 dollars for a driver or something like that.

So basically I'm going to start small with the cabinets and work my way up till I've got enough experience to build the comicly huge speakers.

I really enjoy your input on this, and just cause I'm young don't think I'm obnoxious and don't take your advice. I'm a honors student so I know not to rush into things like this. And I read every post negative and positive.

Thanx guys, your awesome.
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Old 31st August 2006, 02:15 PM   #16
Schaef is offline Schaef  United States
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First, sorry to hear you were a victim of the infamous "White Van" scam.

Next, I think you're going about your design backwards. You don't want to start with the cabinets and try to find drivers that fit, you want to go the other way. The reason for this is that every driver requires a specific volume to make them sound good. In other words if you want to use the cabinets, the first thing you need to do is figure out the volume of the cabinet, then, if it has a port or two, the size and length of the port. Given that information you can start to figure out what frequency the cabinet is tuned for. Then you have to go find some speakers that will match that. A lot harder than custom building a cabinet to match.

Also, although the outside of the cabinet may look nice, I'm willing to bet its a veneer, and the actual substrate is particle board. Its also probably 1/2" particle board, which is NOT what you want. For the sizes you'll be talking, you want at the very least 3/4" thick material, you want the cabinet to be rigid as well. Unfortunately, the best answer to all of this is, pitch the whole thing, and start from scratch.

Also, based on what you've said, it sounds like we need to start with main speakers for you. So, given that, let's start looking at some kits so that you'll have things a little easier, as they'll come with cross overs, drivers, and at least have the option of having the cabinets included.

So, to give you and us an idea of things, I'd like you to take a look at two different sites, one a high-end one, and one more mass market. The high end one would be Madisound. Their speaker kits tend to be expensive but are really good quality. After staring at that and thinking that I've lost my mind on these, head over to Parts Express and look at their line of Dayton Loudspeaker kits. These are more mass market level, but should still be decent. I'm sure other people will chime in with other places to look at as well.

Don't limit yourself when looking at the kits, or in other words, don't dismiss a kit because it doesn't have a 12" woofer in it, a 10" can kick quite a bit and provide better bass control for more punch. Also don't dismiss a kit just because it doesn't have 5 drivers per speaker or something like that. When looking at kits you want to compare a couple of key items:

1) Their frequency range. In your case, you want to look at the low end and their 3db down point. (It may be called its F3 point) This is the point that the speaker level will basically be half as loud as the rest of the frequency range, or in effect, the lowest note it can effectively play. (Before others chime in, yes I know that's not accurate, but its close enough)

2) Their sensitivity. This is measured in db, and means approximately how loud they'll play when 1 watt of music is played through them and measured at 1 meter. (I think that's reasonably accurate)

3) Their power handling. This is lower concern than the other two, as efficient speakers don't need as much power to be loud.

So, you want a speaker that extends into the bass regions, but remember, you'll eventually augment this with a sub, so extreme isn't needed. You want one that has higher sensitivity numbers, as it'll take less power to make them loud. (Think about shouting to your friends as they appreciate the volume, that its only 40 watts!!!) Finally, you'll want reasonable power levels.

That's where I think you should go next, you'll be happier in the long run.

Oh, and others, please point off to other kit sites for him as well.
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Old 31st August 2006, 05:06 PM   #17
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

you may be able to use the cabinets by cuttting the central section
of the baffle, adding internal bracing and adding a new baffle.

If I were you I'd start with building something from here :

http://www.pispeakers.com/contents.html

I'd also try and tone down the obsession with power ratings,
though its hard with a mines bigger than yours mentality.

With any of the pi speakers all you'll need is 25 to 50 high
quality watts per channel, quality gives amplifiers the sense
of lots of power, not silly numbers.

If you can find a 25w to 35W valve amplifier all to the good,
aggressive music can sound rather excellent through valve
kit, something like a Dynaco ST-70 or equivalent.

/sreten.

edit : note : personally I'm not into high efficiency speakers
and valve amplifiers, I like my reproduction more "hifi", but
if you are going to turn the wick up the above will see off
most systems, and is not too critical of source quality.
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Old 2nd September 2006, 03:14 AM   #18
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Beware of sound-it is dangerous. last year there was some car audio thing where they decked out an old car with TONS of speakers and when they went to show it off, the bass was so powerful that it killed one of the show women. I don't know many detail but I think that something ruptured ughh... painful.... So learn the lesson! don't blast your headphones! (Actually, thats okay, there may just be some permanent hearing loss from prolonged exposure though...). What I mean is, sound can be deadly at high levels, meaning it can cause heart attacks and death in the worst cases. So don't just blast the house to pieces, because you'll go down with it! (this was meant as a semi-humorous warning, so please don't feel like you have just had an assault on your maturity/common sense)

Please don't be
--keantoken
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Old 2nd September 2006, 11:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by keantoken
Beware of sound-it is dangerous. last year there was some car audio thing where they decked out an old car with TONS of speakers and when they went to show it off, the bass was so powerful that it killed one of the show women. I don't know many detail but I think that something ruptured ughh... painful.... So learn the lesson! don't blast your headphones! (Actually, thats okay, there may just be some permanent hearing loss from prolonged exposure though...). What I mean is, sound can be deadly at high levels, meaning it can cause heart attacks and death in the worst cases. So don't just blast the house to pieces, because you'll go down with it! (this was meant as a semi-humorous warning, so please don't feel like you have just had an assault on your maturity/common sense)

Please don't be
--keantoken

Are you sure she died, or just passed out? I have never heard of anyone acually dying from sound, but sound can be dangerous as even the government is using sound waves to test non leathal weapons.

The worst thing I ever saw was on a very short lived show on Speed TV. They had one show that probably aired maybe three times. The last show, they were building a insain stereo in a truck. The thing was overkill in everyway possible. It litterly had a wall of subwoofers. Anyway, at the end of the show, they were jamming this thing and one of the guys jumped, grabbed his ear, and blood started comming out. I think he litteraly blew his ear drum. Needless to say, I never saw that show air again.

Even mythbusters tested low bass sound waves to cause loss of um butt control. Nothing happened. Now, they were wearing hearing protection, so maybe acually hearing the sound is part of the problem. Who knows. I've heard bass hits loud enough to feel. I guess if someone was really out of shape and already had a heart problem, a loud explosive bass hit that could be felt in the chest could cause a heart attack. Really loud bass hits do put pressure on the body and even feel like they are going through the body. It's the same with thunder tho. I've never heard of anyone dying from hearing a really close, really loud thunder hit. I'm sure it's happened, but thunder can shake a whole house and no in home stereo could reproduce that unless it was built by a mad man with unlimited money.

You wouldn't be able to get this kind of power from a decent amp tho and amps start to sound bad when pushed too hard. Unless you build something with a very loud horn tweeter and always listen to the highest possible volume without distortion, you probably can't get dammage your ears too much. Not unless you have a really small room, and do nothing but sit in front of your speakers and jam them all the time. As already mentioned, it also depends on how effecent your speakers are. My main HT speakers that I bought in the late 90s are rated at 100db 1w/1m. They can get pretty freaken loud. Shopping for drivers to build music speakers, I'm having trouble finding anything much more effecent them 93-94db. I'm not interested in horn tweeters myself tho, but they can have some pretty insain db ratings. I don't care for the sound. IMO, they are for loud speakers only. For some reason Klipsch refuses to give them up. I did some reading on them the other day trying to figure out why they still use them. The original reason was to make big sound with little watts. It sounds like in the 90s they really improved the horn tweeter to sound much better. Maybe it's a signature piece to klipsch since they used the horn tweeter for so long, or maybe they have too much money invested in R&D. I think klipsch will always have a horn tweeter.

I would only buy them for HT use myself. Well hopefully, I will never have to buy another pre built brand name speakers again.

I recomend buying this if you havn't already. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...29&rak=500-035
Starting out, it can be a little much, but read the text, get used to reading graphs, and things start to come togeather.

You can use software to help you figure out your box and cross over. The only reason I havn't built my first set of speakers is, at the moment, cash is a little short, but I am also refreshing myself with the mathmatical part of it as I havn't had to use it in a LONG time. You can use software, and you should, but at the same time, if you don't understand it, you are only cheating yourself.

A friend of mine got these, http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-640 and he is extreamly happy with them. I havn't heard them yet, so I can't give a opinion, but for the price, they probably sound pretty good. My only complaint about them, is they wouldn't go very loud with a decent amp. SPL: 85 dB 2.83V/1m
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Old 2nd September 2006, 07:40 PM   #20
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The thing is, if something like that did happen, it wouldn't be shown on TV. Naturally some group and even the government sometimes has to step in and say "don't show this, we don't want people building sound guns". And especially with mythbusters, you know that the government might have stepped in sometimes to keep from giving terrorists or gangsters ideas. There was a mythbusters show on about using ice-bullets in guns to eliminate evidence of a shooting. There wasn't enough guns tested and of course if the gun is powerful enough it would just blast the ice-pellets to pieces. I have a feeling that the government may have actually asked them to show this so people would think that it doesn't work. I won't get too far into this conspiracy stuff because it does keep us safe and I don't want to start too much contrivercy and make people paranoid or anything. I do think that the government keep a strangely close watch on it's citezens, though. This was meant more as an insight to a common opinion and not a "don't belive anything the government says" type of thing, so don't feel intellectually assaulted, this is just an opinion. Don't take this too seriously!
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