Things are not getting better by putting Jason into sinbin. As i said, the problem is not there is not enough moderation, the problem is too much moderation. And this problem isn´t solved with more and more moderation or moderators. Everything gets more and more ridicolous.
Moderators, consider to act more defensive. Only do something if there is a REAL need. Don´t do anything only because you belive it´s right in a situation, wait. Act not before escalation happens. You disturb more than anyone would be able to repair.
Moderators, consider to act more defensive. Only do something if there is a REAL need. Don´t do anything only because you belive it´s right in a situation, wait. Act not before escalation happens. You disturb more than anyone would be able to repair.
"the problem is not there is not enough moderation, the problem is too much moderation" (till)
That is exactly my opinion.
Moderation is censure, censure is violence.
Violence can be used, only with extreme care, only when all others ways have been tried without success, and only in order to remedy an effectively intolerable problem. Not for convenience, even of many people, not for obscure moral philosophy reasons.
Furthermore, inconsiderate moderation causes more trouble than it solves, as all inadequate medicine, or excessive feedback in an amplifier.
But concerning the beginning of this thread, I think that it is a very good idea to suggest a search before posting. Just, if possible, some short explanation in a "pop-up" would be more friendly.
Regards, Pierre Lacombe.
That is exactly my opinion.
Moderation is censure, censure is violence.
Violence can be used, only with extreme care, only when all others ways have been tried without success, and only in order to remedy an effectively intolerable problem. Not for convenience, even of many people, not for obscure moral philosophy reasons.
Furthermore, inconsiderate moderation causes more trouble than it solves, as all inadequate medicine, or excessive feedback in an amplifier.
But concerning the beginning of this thread, I think that it is a very good idea to suggest a search before posting. Just, if possible, some short explanation in a "pop-up" would be more friendly.
Regards, Pierre Lacombe.
to PPL, I apologize for my hasty inappropriate remarks and post.
1. I was leaving, having been called in to work and acted too hastily.
2. I didn't catch the fact that he was an Elder here - which is information I should not have overlooked.
3. ppl's style and manner erroneously led me to believe that he was a troll. (error also relates to number 2, had I taken time to check)
I admire people who have the courage and determination to overcome difficult problems and hardship. This can take many forms that are not readily visible in Real Life much less in cyberspace.
I did not behave as my momma raised me in this case
I am sending ppl an e-mail to this effect and to state clearly that I welcome his presence here.
sincerely
Ken
Serow said:
1. I was leaving, having been called in to work and acted too hastily.
2. I didn't catch the fact that he was an Elder here - which is information I should not have overlooked.
3. ppl's style and manner erroneously led me to believe that he was a troll. (error also relates to number 2, had I taken time to check)
I admire people who have the courage and determination to overcome difficult problems and hardship. This can take many forms that are not readily visible in Real Life much less in cyberspace.
I did not behave as my momma raised me in this case
I am sending ppl an e-mail to this effect and to state clearly that I welcome his presence here.
sincerely
Ken
Family Fights are always the worst...
Just a quick thought, we are all spouting off in these few threads about moderation and censorship being a bad thing, but think about it a little.
Apart from the 20 odd people who have been sin binned and the odd few who have had posts cut, including me, how many of the rest of you have ever suffered personally from unjustified censorship?
I would guess there are probably four or five hundred members currently active on the boards, posting about 5000 messages a month between them. Yet there are only 20 people in the sin bin!!!
I think that's a miracle personally, less than a fraction of a percent, of rude, abusive, or dangerous posts requiring punative measures, rather than just a quiet word.
Think about the numbers- go on- think...
Just a quick thought, we are all spouting off in these few threads about moderation and censorship being a bad thing, but think about it a little.
Apart from the 20 odd people who have been sin binned and the odd few who have had posts cut, including me, how many of the rest of you have ever suffered personally from unjustified censorship?
I would guess there are probably four or five hundred members currently active on the boards, posting about 5000 messages a month between them. Yet there are only 20 people in the sin bin!!!
I think that's a miracle personally, less than a fraction of a percent, of rude, abusive, or dangerous posts requiring punative measures, rather than just a quiet word.
Think about the numbers- go on- think...
Hi all,
Hmmm, there have been some very interesting posts, especially those made by Ryder and Kelticwizard.
I think kelticwizard made a very important comment:
1. If you have a look at his signature you can see, that he has only made about 400 posts in 2 years! He's probably occupied enough with keeping everything running, that it doesn't matter if he isn't allowed to post for two weeks. (else than some lunatics with 2k+ posts )
2. I don't think he is going to give it up, IMHO his voluntary SinBinning is a beautiful gesture to us nerds. DAmn, this man loves his site so much that he bins himself for the sake of it!
Now isn't that nice????
Hmmm, there have been some very interesting posts, especially those made by Ryder and Kelticwizard.
I think kelticwizard made a very important comment:
IMHO he must have asked the moderators for binning him. (any moderator is welcome to comment on that) But what does that mean?
1. If you have a look at his signature you can see, that he has only made about 400 posts in 2 years! He's probably occupied enough with keeping everything running, that it doesn't matter if he isn't allowed to post for two weeks. (else than some lunatics with 2k+ posts
)2. I don't think he is going to give it up, IMHO his voluntary SinBinning is a beautiful gesture to us nerds. DAmn, this man loves his site so much that he bins himself for the sake of it!
Now isn't that nice????
Consider the moral unworkability of putting the Webmaster in the SinBin.
For any other member, when they are put in the SinBin, it is a case of telling them, "Get lost for a week. We don't want to see you , hear you, or know about you for that time. Begone!-for you have earned temporary banishment." It's a complete break.
The board requires nothing of the member other than they cease posting. The member does not have to pretend he or she likes or agrees with the temporary ban. The member has the option of maintaining that he's had a bellyful of the people on this board, and that he needed a break from them. Indeed, the member can even claim that he didn't care because they had other things to do that two weeks and he wouldn't have had the chance to post anyway.
In short, the board allows the SinBinned member dignity.
Not so when you SinBin the Webmaster. No dignity for him.
Because after they prevent him from posting, the board still expects the Webmaster to continue to run the server and do all the necessary things that enable other members to post!
This is outrageous. The other SinBinned members are not put into a state of such servitude. Other SinBinned members can claim that they were taking a vacation from DIYAudio themselves. They can say, "I had enough of DIYAudio for awhile". Not Webmaster. He is expected to perform his daily duties every day. He cannot claim that he was sick of this board and needed a break anyway. He has to bow his head and do all the necessary things for others to do what he himself may not.
This is not a mere SinBin sentence against Webmaster. This is servility, and it is an ugly thing to witness.
If the Webmaster's transgressions are really so serious, then the board should be logically and morally consistent and be prepared to shut down all operations for the length of the Webmaster's sentence. Either that, or somehow make arrangements for someone else to provide and run server space, etc. during the Webmaster's banishment.
Sorry, but you cannot claim you are banishing someone on the one hand, then tell them you fully expect them to keep coming around on the other. It's got to be all the way, or it is nothing.
I hereby call upon DIYAudio to put an immediate end to this travesty of justice and to put Webmaster back where he rightfully belongs, at the head of the board he conceived and created. If he wishes to make an additional apology to ppl in light of the newly emerged fact of ppl's disability, that would certainly be appropriate. However, to continue to claim that Webmaster is banished while still fully expecting him to do all that is necessary to run the board, without a peep of protest, is to commit an affront to the very concept of decency and fairness.
Free The Webmaster!!
For any other member, when they are put in the SinBin, it is a case of telling them, "Get lost for a week. We don't want to see you , hear you, or know about you for that time. Begone!-for you have earned temporary banishment." It's a complete break.
The board requires nothing of the member other than they cease posting. The member does not have to pretend he or she likes or agrees with the temporary ban. The member has the option of maintaining that he's had a bellyful of the people on this board, and that he needed a break from them. Indeed, the member can even claim that he didn't care because they had other things to do that two weeks and he wouldn't have had the chance to post anyway.
In short, the board allows the SinBinned member dignity.
Not so when you SinBin the Webmaster. No dignity for him.
Because after they prevent him from posting, the board still expects the Webmaster to continue to run the server and do all the necessary things that enable other members to post!
This is outrageous. The other SinBinned members are not put into a state of such servitude. Other SinBinned members can claim that they were taking a vacation from DIYAudio themselves. They can say, "I had enough of DIYAudio for awhile". Not Webmaster. He is expected to perform his daily duties every day. He cannot claim that he was sick of this board and needed a break anyway. He has to bow his head and do all the necessary things for others to do what he himself may not.
This is not a mere SinBin sentence against Webmaster. This is servility, and it is an ugly thing to witness.
If the Webmaster's transgressions are really so serious, then the board should be logically and morally consistent and be prepared to shut down all operations for the length of the Webmaster's sentence. Either that, or somehow make arrangements for someone else to provide and run server space, etc. during the Webmaster's banishment.
Sorry, but you cannot claim you are banishing someone on the one hand, then tell them you fully expect them to keep coming around on the other. It's got to be all the way, or it is nothing.
I hereby call upon DIYAudio to put an immediate end to this travesty of justice and to put Webmaster back where he rightfully belongs, at the head of the board he conceived and created. If he wishes to make an additional apology to ppl in light of the newly emerged fact of ppl's disability, that would certainly be appropriate. However, to continue to claim that Webmaster is banished while still fully expecting him to do all that is necessary to run the board, without a peep of protest, is to commit an affront to the very concept of decency and fairness.
Free The Webmaster!!
The Webmaster's SinBinning is rather of symbolic nature and supposed to have metaphorical meaning. It just shows that he is ready to take the consequencies of his actions and is not afraid to face critique. It also shows that we stand behind our rules and don't bend them for our purposes as some suggested. The SinBin sentence has no practical consquences to the forum and Jason can free himsels, if he wishes so.
It is also just the opposite to the other occurence, when well respected member was actually suggested to voluntarily accept 3 days SinBin sentence, yet his pride didn't allow him to do that and he just disappeared ever since (leaving in anger, as somebody mentioned earlier).
Kelticwizard,
I will always remember you as a freedom fighter.
It is also just the opposite to the other occurence, when well respected member was actually suggested to voluntarily accept 3 days SinBin sentence, yet his pride didn't allow him to do that and he just disappeared ever since (leaving in anger, as somebody mentioned earlier).
Kelticwizard,
I will always remember you as a freedom fighter.
Don´t get me wrong; I think the webmaster should be freed as well (not fried) but what you´re writing and so the fact he makes this website possible is no excuse for what he says to people.
And so the symbolic nature of Jason being sinbinned is actually justified. I think a day would be symbolic enough.
Jens
IMO the Jason’s 2 week symbolic SinBinning is justified. If you go back a take a look at the Philip’s (ppl) profile, you’ll find he is in the top 10% in terms of length as a member of the forum and number of posts. The transgression against one of the top members is the issue here, and that shouldn’t be lost in our admiration for Jason and the job he’s done. I think all on this forum appreciate the job that Jason does for us (even Philip), but fair is fair.
Come on back Philip.
I'm agreement with the moderators on this one.
Now if they will allow Frank back...
Rodd Yamashita
Come on back Philip.
I'm agreement with the moderators on this one.
Now if they will allow Frank back...
Rodd Yamashita
The Crucifixion of Jason
Said above> The Webmaster's SinBinning is rather of symbolic nature and supposed to have metaphorical meaning. It just shows that he is ready to take the consequencies of his actions and is not afraid to face critique.
Yes Peter, I agree, anybody who could miss the symbolism of the DIYself-crucifixion this time of year is dead in the water. That it is named the Sin-bin is only too appropriate. In the grand tradition: Socrates, Christ and now…. Jason.
“And who, confined to the Sin-bin, arose on the 14th day, to save us from our DIYaudio-Sins.”
This is really too much. It all makes me want to reread Lord of the Flies. Instead of moderators maybe you should call yourself Apostles. Or if you like latter Christianity, “Inquisitors” is a nice handle too. Maybe just for the Holiday Season?
Said Above> It also shows that we stand behind our rules and don't bend them for our purposes as some suggested.
Well, that is one interpretation. But maybe it shows you are trapped by your rules and cannot escape them if you wanted to. This whole thing reminds me of the most forlorn inflexibility one would expect to see out of Wash. D.C. with all the plastic-haired cretins there.
Isn’t it clear. Instead of the transparent and purely symbolic act of condemning Jason (a grade-schooler could see through it and so it carries no effect) you should have freed the others. As Rodd says...If they would only bring Frank back......
This, I am beginning to think, is not an option….with the nature of things being what it is.... and Rules and all.
Cheers
Peace
I’ll go back to just reading.
Craig Ryder
Said above> The Webmaster's SinBinning is rather of symbolic nature and supposed to have metaphorical meaning. It just shows that he is ready to take the consequencies of his actions and is not afraid to face critique.
Yes Peter, I agree, anybody who could miss the symbolism of the DIYself-crucifixion this time of year is dead in the water. That it is named the Sin-bin is only too appropriate. In the grand tradition: Socrates, Christ and now…. Jason.
“And who, confined to the Sin-bin, arose on the 14th day, to save us from our DIYaudio-Sins.”
This is really too much. It all makes me want to reread Lord of the Flies. Instead of moderators maybe you should call yourself Apostles. Or if you like latter Christianity, “Inquisitors” is a nice handle too. Maybe just for the Holiday Season?
Said Above> It also shows that we stand behind our rules and don't bend them for our purposes as some suggested.
Well, that is one interpretation. But maybe it shows you are trapped by your rules and cannot escape them if you wanted to. This whole thing reminds me of the most forlorn inflexibility one would expect to see out of Wash. D.C. with all the plastic-haired cretins there.
Isn’t it clear. Instead of the transparent and purely symbolic act of condemning Jason (a grade-schooler could see through it and so it carries no effect) you should have freed the others. As Rodd says...If they would only bring Frank back......
This, I am beginning to think, is not an option….with the nature of things being what it is.... and Rules and all.
Cheers
Peace
I’ll go back to just reading.
Craig Ryder
That the webmaster put himself in the SinBin (not unjustified) for what he said, I regard as a really beautiful gesture towards the community, also as it may be only of symbolic character.
The leaders and moderators are not infallibly and that`s only human. That they are aware of this and ready to take the same consequencies as we "normal mortals" is GOOD.
If only our politicians would act in the same manner the world would be a better place.
More important I rate the apology from Jason to Philip. Though Jason`s reply is understandable to an extend, the apology was neccessary not though he is the webmaster but BECAUSE he is the webmaster. As said above - all humans can fail - it`s not a big thing even if it happens to a leading person as a webmaster or moderator. To face it and to express a sincere "SORRY" is how real men (and of course woman too) should behave. Jason has done it and that`s
All this shows me that I´m still in the right place here although I feel concerned about the recent mess of very valuable members leaving this board respectively got banned.
Mentioned this I have to say the Bernhard (dice45)/ Frank (fdgrove) issue still appears unresolved to me and I would like to see some more action from the moderator team towards saving what is still to save and to terminate this with a less than sad result as it is at the moment. I fear that more than "less sad" will be unrealistic because at least Bernhard to this board seems to be lost forever very unfortunately.
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