More pics tomorrow, but i too won a nice door prize -- a set of shielded 3" TagBands (althou the real score was a set of much more exotic, an OEM 3" escaped from a large well-known manufacturer). I have to give my thanks to Al for his timing -- saving me from posting a current picture of myself (or at least my face).
dave
dave
Attachments
Re: Re: Re: Show of Hands
There is nothing more emasculating...
Today was a great day, aside from having to walk 10km from the bus route to Al's house, but it was definately worth it.
Alas, I am extremely weary from all that walking and from the stress of lugging a 21lb driver on the bus, with a constant fear of being mugged...
...So I will just extend a great deal of thanks to Bob and Al and Dan and Rick and everyone else who was involved in today's get-together. Tomorrow, when I have more of my wits about me, I will more properly thank everyone who made today a day I will not soon forget.
Thank you all,
Sean.
planet10 said:And the winner of the Adire Tempest is Vanessa Morris, seangoesbonk's girlfriend.
Sean just finished his Shive Sub, and not we can tease him that his girlfriend's is bigger than his
There is nothing more emasculating...
Today was a great day, aside from having to walk 10km from the bus route to Al's house, but it was definately worth it.
Alas, I am extremely weary from all that walking and from the stress of lugging a 21lb driver on the bus, with a constant fear of being mugged......So I will just extend a great deal of thanks to Bob and Al and Dan and Rick and everyone else who was involved in today's get-together. Tomorrow, when I have more of my wits about me, I will more properly thank everyone who made today a day I will not soon forget.
Thank you all,
Sean.
Dave and Victoria Party.
lIke I said as you were heading out loaded to the top of that Suburu.
I had a blast with you all, in total at the peak yesterday 38 people were in my home for the DIY.
The 3 rooms was a big help and your efforts with the Tube set ups has shown myself and others that the same speakers from a reciever to a Tub set up and not $8000.00 setup .Just a good modest tube set up makes that much of a vocal change in a set of speakers.
Dave thanks for the good write up and taking almost what 70 pics, of the event.
All the prizes from Bob at CSS,And the TEMPEST FROM DAN AT ADIRE, and DARREN from PE.
A big thank you for all of the great prizes.
We took a vote of hands and no one here wanted to fill out any judges forms as at other DIY events this year.
But we did takemeasurments of those designs for anyone who wanted them.
Even Aaron and his MONSTER emerealds were packed up my stairs to the HT room for that is were my measurment set up is.
All the listening was first done on a Sony CD player, with a Yamaha 640 reciever.
Room was 10X24 and had 38 people in the room, as well as the kitchen also.
But some found almost all highs from this set up to bright but we listened to all in this room then went to the Tube room and HT room.Were things started to change.
The tubes brought out sound in speakers I never heard before.
And the HT room was a different sound room.
Thanks again.And Dave can you fire me a email to talk to you off the board.
Thanks AL
lIke I said as you were heading out loaded to the top of that Suburu.
I had a blast with you all, in total at the peak yesterday 38 people were in my home for the DIY.
The 3 rooms was a big help and your efforts with the Tube set ups has shown myself and others that the same speakers from a reciever to a Tub set up and not $8000.00 setup .Just a good modest tube set up makes that much of a vocal change in a set of speakers.
Dave thanks for the good write up and taking almost what 70 pics, of the event.
All the prizes from Bob at CSS,And the TEMPEST FROM DAN AT ADIRE, and DARREN from PE.
A big thank you for all of the great prizes.
We took a vote of hands and no one here wanted to fill out any judges forms as at other DIY events this year.
But we did takemeasurments of those designs for anyone who wanted them.
Even Aaron and his MONSTER emerealds were packed up my stairs to the HT room for that is were my measurment set up is.
All the listening was first done on a Sony CD player, with a Yamaha 640 reciever.
Room was 10X24 and had 38 people in the room, as well as the kitchen also.
But some found almost all highs from this set up to bright but we listened to all in this room then went to the Tube room and HT room.Were things started to change.
The tubes brought out sound in speakers I never heard before.
And the HT room was a different sound room.
Thanks again.And Dave can you fire me a email to talk to you off the board.
Thanks AL
RAW said:
Aaron has a rational for the unusual placement of the drivers in these green velvet towers built from cubicon (?) tubes. He has 5 for his HT, wanted them all the same and needed to have them clear the top of the TV. For listening in the confines of room 3 they caued a bit of neck strain thou. Very solid bass, but they could benefit form a better tweeter ($10 each for the ones he is using, matched in a 2-way with Peerless CSX midbasses).
dave
Attachments
Impressions from the show
Al, and Mrs "RAW" - thanks for letting us abuse your house for the day - summer barbeque definitely sounds like a great idea - how about coordinating timing with next year's VSAC - hopefully the Adire folks will be able to attend both
thanks for the tip in the weaving jig - if you left the jacket on CAT5 plenum rated cable, would it meet the CSA/UL requirements for in-wall low-voltage cabling?
Aaron;
sorry for the tone of my conversation - let's agree to disgree for now.
This hobby is a microcosm of life - it can either be a dead-end, or a journey of constant enlightenment. Opportunites abound for new ways to look at things every day, and some of us get too impatient to share our accumulated "wisdom" with others.
Just for fun, try to borrow a small tube amp (15-20W would be fine) from some local dealer or valve-geek (there's way more of us out there than you might think) for a weekend. I did that 2 years ago while trying to decide on a change to my system, due to boredom from 10 years with the same Linn integrated amp.
Overall excellent sound from your emerald towers - perfectly suited to the height of the living room - cleanest low bass I heard all day. I'm sure you've got your reasons for choice and placement of tweeter in the tower, but the perspective of staging was unnaturally elevated for my taste.
Bob R; excellent sound from the little Criterion 2ways
- I'd definitely like to hear those with the Eton mid-bass, in any color you can get them
Duane: very nice work with the Seas 2 ways - post your findings on tweaking the tweeters, and crossover upgrades if any.
Al, and Mrs "RAW" - thanks for letting us abuse your house for the day - summer barbeque definitely sounds like a great idea - how about coordinating timing with next year's VSAC - hopefully the Adire folks will be able to attend both
thanks for the tip in the weaving jig - if you left the jacket on CAT5 plenum rated cable, would it meet the CSA/UL requirements for in-wall low-voltage cabling?
Aaron;
sorry for the tone of my conversation - let's agree to disgree for now.
This hobby is a microcosm of life - it can either be a dead-end, or a journey of constant enlightenment. Opportunites abound for new ways to look at things every day, and some of us get too impatient to share our accumulated "wisdom" with others.
Just for fun, try to borrow a small tube amp (15-20W would be fine) from some local dealer or valve-geek (there's way more of us out there than you might think) for a weekend. I did that 2 years ago while trying to decide on a change to my system, due to boredom from 10 years with the same Linn integrated amp.
Overall excellent sound from your emerald towers - perfectly suited to the height of the living room - cleanest low bass I heard all day. I'm sure you've got your reasons for choice and placement of tweeter in the tower, but the perspective of staging was unnaturally elevated for my taste.
Bob R; excellent sound from the little Criterion 2ways
- I'd definitely like to hear those with the Eton mid-bass, in any color you can get themDuane: very nice work with the Seas 2 ways - post your findings on tweaking the tweeters, and crossover upgrades if any.
system synergy and voicing
That's exactly where the "magic" of building any system or component lies. To paraphrase Duane, (if the opportunity and skill are available) why would anyone not tailor the sound of the speaker to the room in which you'd be using it?
Not all of us have palatial mansions with 3 and counting listening rooms (AL!) or the technical toys and expertise to model a "perfect" speaker in software, but most of us can tell the difference between chalk and cheese.
ThingyNess said:
That's exactly where the "magic" of building any system or component lies. To paraphrase Duane, (if the opportunity and skill are available) why would anyone not tailor the sound of the speaker to the room in which you'd be using it?
Not all of us have palatial mansions with 3 and counting listening rooms (AL!) or the technical toys and expertise to model a "perfect" speaker in software, but most of us can tell the difference between chalk and cheese.
So Chris.
All of the other designs you listened to I built what are your and Daves comments.
-MCM 1855-480 MT Surprise speaker.
-MCM 1860 -571 MT veneer special and fancy paint job on the fronts.
-MB1 with the old driver as used in the CSS MT.
-MTM using the 657S and 25-302S
-ANTs 871S and 3" black driver in my blue green cabinets.
-TMWW 3 way using the Silver Flute ribbon,Quart mid,and 2 MCM 1860 drivers.
And the ELF 1.5 system in HT and as a Pair to listen to.
Thanks Al
All of the other designs you listened to I built what are your and Daves comments.
-MCM 1855-480 MT Surprise speaker.
-MCM 1860 -571 MT veneer special and fancy paint job on the fronts.
-MB1 with the old driver as used in the CSS MT.
-MTM using the 657S and 25-302S
-ANTs 871S and 3" black driver in my blue green cabinets.
-TMWW 3 way using the Silver Flute ribbon,Quart mid,and 2 MCM 1860 drivers.
And the ELF 1.5 system in HT and as a Pair to listen to.
Thanks Al
Chris.
On the Cat 5 cable question.
Yes it will meet code.
You liked the easy man way of making cat 5 .
Give it a shot and tell me what you think.
I say you and Dave 10000 ft make 6 pairs spinning with the 2 of you.Once set up.
1 hrs time for 12-20 ft long each cable.
Then the time to stip the ends.8.5hrs
And the wife is just greatfull that the windows are still intack.
Yes the 3 rooms worked out very well
And once the next meeting is ready I will have the HT room and 1/2 the basement ready for the HT in that room.
Will make things alot easyer.
had a blast.
On the Cat 5 cable question.
Yes it will meet code.
You liked the easy man way of making cat 5 .
Give it a shot and tell me what you think.
I say you and Dave 10000 ft make 6 pairs spinning with the 2 of you.Once set up.
1 hrs time for 12-20 ft long each cable.
Then the time to stip the ends.8.5hrs
And the wife is just greatfull that the windows are still intack.
Yes the 3 rooms worked out very well
And once the next meeting is ready I will have the HT room and 1/2 the basement ready for the HT in that room.
Will make things alot easyer.
had a blast.
Thanks everyone! (LONG)
First off, let me say that I had a blast at the event, thanks to Al and Rick and everone else involved in hosting and setting it up! As promised, we didn't have any trouble getting back into the USA.
I wasn't able to sell any of the things I brought, so ended up taking home more stuff, but what are you going to do??
Chrisb,
No need to apologize, I'm sure my tone was not as understanding as it could have been. It's nice we have forums like these where folks can take the time to expound on their positions, an opportunity that may not always present itself in the short span of the live event.
As to the comments about the Yamaha receiver setup in the 'first' room, I'll do some clarification. My objection to people saying it was the receiver/CD player was not in response to that particular setup. Rather, I was objecting to the implication, which looking back now may not have been there, that all solid state sounds that way, ie bright. I too thought it sounded bright, but then again, I didn't think all the speakers sounded that way in that room. My solid state receiver, with my speakers, in my own room, has no trace of said brightness, albeit with all my 200 CD's that have none of the material that was played in that room. So, I'll freely admit, that it could certainly have been the receiver and CD player contributing to the brightness. My point is that my own speakers, played on half a dozen different solid state receivers, only two of which I'd really call high quality (both my own), in as many different rooms, aren't bright. Hope that makes my position clear on that issue.
Now about the tubes vs solid state, I think I got off on a worse foot there. I have nothing against tubes as far as the sound goes. My problem with them is price, availability, and perceived tweakage/longevity. To my knowledge, nobody makes a five channel home theater receiver with tube output of at least 40w/channel. Nor do I think I could simply use my receiver as a preamp, fed to five channels of tube amplification, for a small sum of money, at least in the power range I'm talking about. Terry Olson was good enough to mention what he thought was a good tube amp, albeit maybe 10-20 watts per channel, which can be had for I think he said $200. That's enough power for my current needs, but I can certainly forsee a time when I might want more. And, that'd be $600, which I know is pocket change to many of you, but not to me! As to the longevity, I was told long ago (this is 10+ years, tubes have gotten better maybe?) by my electronics professor that tubes were very short lived in comparison with a transistor. I rarely upgrade a major piece of gear such as a receiver or amp, so I want the most lifespan out of them. I've also heard that tubes sometimes require a bit of tweaking to either extend life, improve sound, or some combination of the two. I don't like tweaking, to be honest, I'm a plug and play kind of guy. Now I know, maybe it's just turning a screw and watching the meter go to whatever current setting you want, so may really be a non-issue. That's just been my perception, wrong or right. I'd be happy if you or anyone could clarify the lifespan/tweaking issues with tubes, if any. The biggest issues though are the price (my entire receiver cost me $400) and power output. Now I have super efficient speakers that indeed can get well over 100 dB with only 10 watts, but what about peaks? It may be a different story when I upgrade to a powered sub and relieve the main speakers of the bottom 1.5 octaves or so, but for now, I have plenty of instances when I use at least 40 watts on the peaks. Granted, not very often, but I want the option, you know?
Anyhoo, hope that makes my points a little more clear. Again, I am not against tubes for the sound, but because hindsight is 20/20, I can certainly see how it may have come across that way. The bottom line for me is that I don't have any issues with the sound of my solid state receiver, or my CD player. So, spending more money on a tube setup that may have limited dynamics doesn't seem like a wise choice, for ME. And no, I am not going to setup two different systems for home theater and stereo listening, because I'm using the same speakers for both, and I couldn't stand having to switch speaker wires just to listen to a CD.
Dave,
Thanks for posting the pictures of myself next to the speakers, that's not a bad shot! I got some good pictures, but it will take me a while to go through them, resize and compress, and put them up on my web page.
Thanks to Parts Express (Darren?) for the Dayton 6.5", I think they will be perfect for a project I've been planning!
Al,
Sorry I didn't get to spend more time with your home theater setup, it sounded really nice. However, my ET's do put out more bass in that opening sequence of Star Wars II than those two 8" subwoofers you were using. The Shiva, well, hard to beat a Shiva when it's in a PR/Vented box, AND has an additional 6 dB boost at 35 hz! Cheater. My ET's were designed to have a low end roll off which complements room gain in most rooms, so should have relatively little peaks.
To all with regards to the theory behind the driver placement in my speakers, here's the scoop.
As was noted, I wanted five identical speakers, and the center needs to clear the top of the TV, which is 47" off the floor. The center speaker was actually about 4" higher than the front L/R until I converted them to ported and raised them with the new base. Per Lucasfilm and other 'authorities', the front trio of speakers in a home theater setup should have no more than 12" difference in height, meaning the front speakers also needed to be nearly as tall as the center. Well, it made sense that the surrounds should also be the same height, so there you go! Some extenuating reasons were that I don't like speaker stands, as they take up space, but give nothing except raising the speakers. Using the cubicon tube performs the same purpose, but also gives me a larger enclosure volume without taking up additional floor space. If my speakers were only 1/3 the internal volume that they are, there's no way I could achieve the same kind of bass extension, possibly not the smoothness either. Also, I did not conceive of any easy way to cut the Cubicon tubes at a perfect right angle. Cubicon is, shall way, say, somewhat difficult to deal with, and their only distributor, was not able to do anything custom, like cutting the tubes.
Now regarding driver placement on the tube, here's how that goes down. First off, I figured that the woofer frequencies bouncing off the top of the TV (though I do put foam there) would be less bothersome than the tweeter, ie if I had made them as a TMM instead of MMT. However, even had I put the tweeter on the bottom, other issues would present themself. I could no longer have the crossover tilt downward, because that would put the primary lobe WELL below a seated person's ears. As they are now, tweeter on top, at my listening distance of 11 feet, the center of the primary lobe is only 30 inches off the floor. If the tweeter were on the bottom, I suppose I could have used a crossover with no tilt, but then the lobe would be over my head, at 50" off the floor! Remember, the whole reason all the drivers are pushed to the top of the tube, is to clear the TV for the center, and to maintain uniform image height across the entire five speakers. All clear?
Thanks to all those with praise for my speakers, but I should note that I can't take THAT much credit. Yes, the design is my own conception and I did choose all the materials and assemble them, but Dan Wiggins of Adire designed the crossover for me. All I did was choose the actual physical layout of it and which parts to use, all Solen by the way. Love those Canadian companies, they were a true pleasure to deal with and gave me a far better deal than I could have gotten through Madisound! No arguments the the tweeter could be improved, but that would more than likely necessitate a complete rework of the crossover, and with all five of them...yuck. The crossover was the longest single phase of building these speakers! Plus, it would need to be at least 93 dB, preferably 94 dB, and I'd put a cap on the price of probably $30, maybe $40.. Like I mentioned before, I just don't have issues with the current sound! Sure, I know it sounds crazy to have $20 in crossover for a $9 tweeter, but if the end result sounds good, who am I to complain?
Well, that should cover just about everything for now! Thanks again to everybody, it was well worth the 165 mile trip.
Cheers,
Aaron Gilbert
First off, let me say that I had a blast at the event, thanks to Al and Rick and everone else involved in hosting and setting it up! As promised, we didn't have any trouble getting back into the USA.
I wasn't able to sell any of the things I brought, so ended up taking home more stuff, but what are you going to do??
Chrisb,
No need to apologize, I'm sure my tone was not as understanding as it could have been. It's nice we have forums like these where folks can take the time to expound on their positions, an opportunity that may not always present itself in the short span of the live event.
As to the comments about the Yamaha receiver setup in the 'first' room, I'll do some clarification. My objection to people saying it was the receiver/CD player was not in response to that particular setup. Rather, I was objecting to the implication, which looking back now may not have been there, that all solid state sounds that way, ie bright. I too thought it sounded bright, but then again, I didn't think all the speakers sounded that way in that room. My solid state receiver, with my speakers, in my own room, has no trace of said brightness, albeit with all my 200 CD's that have none of the material that was played in that room.
So, I'll freely admit, that it could certainly have been the receiver and CD player contributing to the brightness. My point is that my own speakers, played on half a dozen different solid state receivers, only two of which I'd really call high quality (both my own), in as many different rooms, aren't bright. Hope that makes my position clear on that issue.Now about the tubes vs solid state, I think I got off on a worse foot there. I have nothing against tubes as far as the sound goes. My problem with them is price, availability, and perceived tweakage/longevity. To my knowledge, nobody makes a five channel home theater receiver with tube output of at least 40w/channel. Nor do I think I could simply use my receiver as a preamp, fed to five channels of tube amplification, for a small sum of money, at least in the power range I'm talking about. Terry Olson was good enough to mention what he thought was a good tube amp, albeit maybe 10-20 watts per channel, which can be had for I think he said $200. That's enough power for my current needs, but I can certainly forsee a time when I might want more. And, that'd be $600, which I know is pocket change to many of you, but not to me! As to the longevity, I was told long ago (this is 10+ years, tubes have gotten better maybe?) by my electronics professor that tubes were very short lived in comparison with a transistor. I rarely upgrade a major piece of gear such as a receiver or amp, so I want the most lifespan out of them. I've also heard that tubes sometimes require a bit of tweaking to either extend life, improve sound, or some combination of the two. I don't like tweaking, to be honest, I'm a plug and play kind of guy. Now I know, maybe it's just turning a screw and watching the meter go to whatever current setting you want, so may really be a non-issue. That's just been my perception, wrong or right. I'd be happy if you or anyone could clarify the lifespan/tweaking issues with tubes, if any. The biggest issues though are the price (my entire receiver cost me $400) and power output. Now I have super efficient speakers that indeed can get well over 100 dB with only 10 watts, but what about peaks? It may be a different story when I upgrade to a powered sub and relieve the main speakers of the bottom 1.5 octaves or so, but for now, I have plenty of instances when I use at least 40 watts on the peaks. Granted, not very often, but I want the option, you know?
Anyhoo, hope that makes my points a little more clear. Again, I am not against tubes for the sound, but because hindsight is 20/20, I can certainly see how it may have come across that way. The bottom line for me is that I don't have any issues with the sound of my solid state receiver, or my CD player. So, spending more money on a tube setup that may have limited dynamics doesn't seem like a wise choice, for ME.
And no, I am not going to setup two different systems for home theater and stereo listening, because I'm using the same speakers for both, and I couldn't stand having to switch speaker wires just to listen to a CD. Dave,
Thanks for posting the pictures of myself next to the speakers, that's not a bad shot! I got some good pictures, but it will take me a while to go through them, resize and compress, and put them up on my web page.
Thanks to Parts Express (Darren?) for the Dayton 6.5", I think they will be perfect for a project I've been planning!
Al,
Sorry I didn't get to spend more time with your home theater setup, it sounded really nice. However, my ET's do put out more bass in that opening sequence of Star Wars II than those two 8" subwoofers you were using.
The Shiva, well, hard to beat a Shiva when it's in a PR/Vented box, AND has an additional 6 dB boost at 35 hz! Cheater. My ET's were designed to have a low end roll off which complements room gain in most rooms, so should have relatively little peaks.To all with regards to the theory behind the driver placement in my speakers, here's the scoop.
As was noted, I wanted five identical speakers, and the center needs to clear the top of the TV, which is 47" off the floor. The center speaker was actually about 4" higher than the front L/R until I converted them to ported and raised them with the new base. Per Lucasfilm and other 'authorities', the front trio of speakers in a home theater setup should have no more than 12" difference in height, meaning the front speakers also needed to be nearly as tall as the center. Well, it made sense that the surrounds should also be the same height, so there you go! Some extenuating reasons were that I don't like speaker stands, as they take up space, but give nothing except raising the speakers. Using the cubicon tube performs the same purpose, but also gives me a larger enclosure volume without taking up additional floor space. If my speakers were only 1/3 the internal volume that they are, there's no way I could achieve the same kind of bass extension, possibly not the smoothness either. Also, I did not conceive of any easy way to cut the Cubicon tubes at a perfect right angle. Cubicon is, shall way, say, somewhat difficult to deal with, and their only distributor, was not able to do anything custom, like cutting the tubes.
Now regarding driver placement on the tube, here's how that goes down. First off, I figured that the woofer frequencies bouncing off the top of the TV (though I do put foam there) would be less bothersome than the tweeter, ie if I had made them as a TMM instead of MMT. However, even had I put the tweeter on the bottom, other issues would present themself. I could no longer have the crossover tilt downward, because that would put the primary lobe WELL below a seated person's ears. As they are now, tweeter on top, at my listening distance of 11 feet, the center of the primary lobe is only 30 inches off the floor. If the tweeter were on the bottom, I suppose I could have used a crossover with no tilt, but then the lobe would be over my head, at 50" off the floor!
Remember, the whole reason all the drivers are pushed to the top of the tube, is to clear the TV for the center, and to maintain uniform image height across the entire five speakers. All clear?Thanks to all those with praise for my speakers, but I should note that I can't take THAT much credit. Yes, the design is my own conception and I did choose all the materials and assemble them, but Dan Wiggins of Adire designed the crossover for me. All I did was choose the actual physical layout of it and which parts to use, all Solen by the way. Love those Canadian companies, they were a true pleasure to deal with and gave me a far better deal than I could have gotten through Madisound! No arguments the the tweeter could be improved, but that would more than likely necessitate a complete rework of the crossover, and with all five of them...yuck. The crossover was the longest single phase of building these speakers! Plus, it would need to be at least 93 dB, preferably 94 dB, and I'd put a cap on the price of probably $30, maybe $40.. Like I mentioned before, I just don't have issues with the current sound!
Sure, I know it sounds crazy to have $20 in crossover for a $9 tweeter, but if the end result sounds good, who am I to complain? Well, that should cover just about everything for now! Thanks again to everybody, it was well worth the 165 mile trip.
Cheers,
Aaron Gilbert
Aaronm.
Good to here all went well.
i did not hink you would have a problem with customs.
As for the subs.
Well the Shiva was sealed,no PR yes a boost 6db at 35hz.
The W8-740c-MCM 55-2421 in the 1cft cabinet had a single driver with the PR.
The other sub was a proto type from CSS using twin 6.5" drivers and the same PR.SPYDERLESS.
Rooms a-b test listened to in the same room so some were brighter than others.
Now I will point out.
The only difference.
every set of speakers was listened to using another CD and track.
So in all equals both you and Chris are about 10 % correct.
The tests should have had 4-6 tracks and that is it.
No more.
This is a only far test.
other than that the recording has 100% to do with the final out put as well.
All things learned for the next DIY.
I will have a smapler CD that will have 4-6 tunes and that will be it.
Same used on all speakers all at the same level.
This will also be measured next time as well.
I did get to liusten to the Emerads a bit and for the money a very well done job.MCM tweeter and all.The 525 is another good find.
So Aaron.
Comments on the Raw show and tell.
Hope to see you at the next one.
Al
Good to here all went well.
i did not hink you would have a problem with customs.
As for the subs.
Well the Shiva was sealed,no PR yes a boost 6db at 35hz.
The W8-740c-MCM 55-2421 in the 1cft cabinet had a single driver with the PR.
The other sub was a proto type from CSS using twin 6.5" drivers and the same PR.SPYDERLESS.
Rooms a-b test listened to in the same room so some were brighter than others.
Now I will point out.
The only difference.
every set of speakers was listened to using another CD and track.
So in all equals both you and Chris are about 10 % correct.
The tests should have had 4-6 tracks and that is it.
No more.
This is a only far test.
other than that the recording has 100% to do with the final out put as well.
All things learned for the next DIY.
I will have a smapler CD that will have 4-6 tunes and that will be it.
Same used on all speakers all at the same level.
This will also be measured next time as well.
I did get to liusten to the Emerads a bit and for the money a very well done job.MCM tweeter and all.The 525 is another good find.
So Aaron.
Comments on the Raw show and tell.
Hope to see you at the next one.
Al
Oops, my mistake!
I thought the Shiva was a vented/PR, sealed does change things a bit. Still, there is that boost at 35 hz... Plus, with the excursion it has, it definitely has more Vd than even my four woofers combined... I've been trying to decide which way to go for a sub when I get a house. Shiva sure models well as anything in terms of extension, and in smaller boxes. But, I think I'll get a Tempest, just because I've always wanted a 15" driver. Of course, a Tumult would be nice, but $499, ouch! Worth it, but I don't need that much output until I have my dream home with it's own 800 sq. foot theater, maybe not even then...
I agree about the CD track issue, it seems hard to compare speakers when each one plays a different song. I did like Chris' comment to me later on, that sometimes a track you've never heard (which was essentially all of them except what I played myself) makes it easier to compare two speakers. That certainly makes a lot of sense.
Like I think I mentioned before, I am just not a critical listener, and trying to judge the characteristics of a speaker ruins my enjoyment of the music. With so many different speakers and so little time, I begin to wonder if it's even possible in the space of one day to do both critical listening and casual enjoyment of all the speakers... ???
As for your show, and tell, very cool! I actually have been eying the Tang-Band drivers for a while now, for some possible projects. As it turns out, I'm looking for a house now, so all speaker projects are on hold while I save up some money, so good timing on the Dayton 6.5"! Anyway back to your speakers..
I was really impressed by the bass, or at least, the apparent bass, from such small drivers! And, they weren't even really in the corners of the room or against the wall! I thought overall the midrange sounded very good, as did the treble for that matter, excepting the well known brightness issue. I thought upstairs in the home theater, Attack of the Clones sounded pretty much just like I hear it in my own home theater, which is to say very good indeed. Not a great blend with the sub, to my ears, but I wouldn't expect that given the quickie setup. To me, it's just very cool to see a loudspeaker driver that is as inexpensive and compact as the Tang-Bands, perform so well, which add merit to the point that you don't need to spend many hundreds of dollars on drivers and crossovers to get good sound. Of course I think the Tang-Bands just plain look cool, but everybody already knew that.
As for which of your speakers I liked best, I would have to say it was the MCM two way. I thought it had the best defined bass and not nearly as bright as some of the others in that room. I thought it was pretty close between that speaker and Duane's Seas/Vifa two way, which I liked very much. I thought the Seas woofer was slightly more accurate, again within the constraints of our flawed procedures. Oh, of course I also liked the GR/Raven (hope I got that right) two way, sounded very nice. That was another that didn't sound bright to me. But, at the price it should be impressive, eh?
Which woofer was in that MCM two way? I was going to say the 20-1855, but that's a 5", and I thought it was 6.5"? I was actually considering some MCM aluminum woofers to upgrade my ET's, before I went with the Peerless CSX. I would have saved a little money with the MCM drivers, but I decided to splurge, because I have wanted the CSX's ever since I first laid eyes on them in the Madisound catalog years and years ago..
Cheers,
Aaron Gilbert
I thought the Shiva was a vented/PR, sealed does change things a bit. Still, there is that boost at 35 hz...
Plus, with the excursion it has, it definitely has more Vd than even my four woofers combined... I've been trying to decide which way to go for a sub when I get a house. Shiva sure models well as anything in terms of extension, and in smaller boxes. But, I think I'll get a Tempest, just because I've always wanted a 15" driver. Of course, a Tumult would be nice, but $499, ouch! Worth it, but I don't need that much output until I have my dream home with it's own 800 sq. foot theater, maybe not even then... I agree about the CD track issue, it seems hard to compare speakers when each one plays a different song. I did like Chris' comment to me later on, that sometimes a track you've never heard (which was essentially all of them except what I played myself) makes it easier to compare two speakers. That certainly makes a lot of sense.
Like I think I mentioned before, I am just not a critical listener, and trying to judge the characteristics of a speaker ruins my enjoyment of the music. With so many different speakers and so little time, I begin to wonder if it's even possible in the space of one day to do both critical listening and casual enjoyment of all the speakers... ???
As for your show, and tell, very cool! I actually have been eying the Tang-Band drivers for a while now, for some possible projects. As it turns out, I'm looking for a house now, so all speaker projects are on hold while I save up some money, so good timing on the Dayton 6.5"! Anyway back to your speakers..
I was really impressed by the bass, or at least, the apparent bass, from such small drivers! And, they weren't even really in the corners of the room or against the wall! I thought overall the midrange sounded very good, as did the treble for that matter, excepting the well known brightness issue. I thought upstairs in the home theater, Attack of the Clones sounded pretty much just like I hear it in my own home theater, which is to say very good indeed. Not a great blend with the sub, to my ears, but I wouldn't expect that given the quickie setup. To me, it's just very cool to see a loudspeaker driver that is as inexpensive and compact as the Tang-Bands, perform so well, which add merit to the point that you don't need to spend many hundreds of dollars on drivers and crossovers to get good sound. Of course I think the Tang-Bands just plain look cool, but everybody already knew that.
As for which of your speakers I liked best, I would have to say it was the MCM two way. I thought it had the best defined bass and not nearly as bright as some of the others in that room. I thought it was pretty close between that speaker and Duane's Seas/Vifa two way, which I liked very much. I thought the Seas woofer was slightly more accurate, again within the constraints of our flawed procedures.
Oh, of course I also liked the GR/Raven (hope I got that right) two way, sounded very nice. That was another that didn't sound bright to me. But, at the price it should be impressive, eh?Which woofer was in that MCM two way? I was going to say the 20-1855, but that's a 5", and I thought it was 6.5"? I was actually considering some MCM aluminum woofers to upgrade my ET's, before I went with the Peerless CSX. I would have saved a little money with the MCM drivers, but I decided to splurge, because I have wanted the CSX's ever since I first laid eyes on them in the Madisound catalog years and years ago..
Cheers,
Aaron Gilbert
Re: Thanks everyone! (LONG)
Welcome to DIYaudio Aaron...
A couple comments:
In a well designed tube amp the tubes can last an awful long time -- i salvage a lot of old hifis and althou most of them have some problem, very rarely is it a tube. Most likely a cap that has gone leaky or a carbon resistor that has changed value.
A 10-20 watt tube amp is probably going to sound like it has more power than your 40W AV receiver -- and possibly by quite a margin.
Any comments about the Yamaha Receiver and the Sony CD-player were specific to those units... the Frugal-phile(tm) front-end in Room 3 was all solid state and sounded quite a bit better (for under $150 CAD).
And most important. It doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks, as long as when YOU sit down to listen to your hifi YOU ENJOY the MUSIC, that is all that matters. (sorry for shouting -- just making a point )
dave
Welcome to DIYaudio Aaron...
A couple comments:
In a well designed tube amp the tubes can last an awful long time -- i salvage a lot of old hifis and althou most of them have some problem, very rarely is it a tube. Most likely a cap that has gone leaky or a carbon resistor that has changed value.
A 10-20 watt tube amp is probably going to sound like it has more power than your 40W AV receiver -- and possibly by quite a margin.
Any comments about the Yamaha Receiver and the Sony CD-player were specific to those units... the Frugal-phile(tm) front-end in Room 3 was all solid state and sounded quite a bit better (for under $150 CAD).
And most important. It doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks, as long as when YOU sit down to listen to your hifi YOU ENJOY the MUSIC, that is all that matters. (sorry for shouting -- just making a point
)dave
Thanks for the reply aron.
The track isue is a point I just had to say.
Now the Subs yes iddi as you ssen no realy tweeking to set levels,just adjust them in 5 seconds.
Just to smaple.
The Temp would be my be also.The Shiva does have a far kick over the 8" with the PR.The 8" subs and a PR work well for a small controled room.But the cost of the driver PR makes the Shiva a no brainer.
On the MCM speakers are you talking the veneer and paint job specials or the smaller ones using the Birch Plywood.
The larger ones were the 55-1860 MCM and the MCM 53-571 tweeter.2nd order
Plans on my site using the D25 and I just made a resistro change down.
Thew Other ones use the MCM 1855-480 tweeter used in the bottleheads.At $60.00 USD for the Pair they do have the design for the buck in my world.
Design done by Rick Craig way before he had cliop.A simple gift to a relation and these were made.
i have since passed this plan on to ton of people who have built themand love them.
Rick ahd said that he may re fist the design to impro it using Clio.
When who knows.But a very good design in my books.
And yes GR Criterion using the M130 driver was very high end but at $800.00 US per speaker it should be that good.
Now when Danny replaced the M 130 with the Eton which he used this weekend in Texas, that was a big hit also.
So Dannys well done design.
The TMWW what did you think of those.
The track isue is a point I just had to say.
Now the Subs yes iddi as you ssen no realy tweeking to set levels,just adjust them in 5 seconds.
Just to smaple.
The Temp would be my be also.The Shiva does have a far kick over the 8" with the PR.The 8" subs and a PR work well for a small controled room.But the cost of the driver PR makes the Shiva a no brainer.
On the MCM speakers are you talking the veneer and paint job specials or the smaller ones using the Birch Plywood.
The larger ones were the 55-1860 MCM and the MCM 53-571 tweeter.2nd order
Plans on my site using the D25 and I just made a resistro change down.
Thew Other ones use the MCM 1855-480 tweeter used in the bottleheads.At $60.00 USD for the Pair they do have the design for the buck in my world.
Design done by Rick Craig way before he had cliop.A simple gift to a relation and these were made.
i have since passed this plan on to ton of people who have built themand love them.
Rick ahd said that he may re fist the design to impro it using Clio.
When who knows.But a very good design in my books.
And yes GR Criterion using the M130 driver was very high end but at $800.00 US per speaker it should be that good.
Now when Danny replaced the M 130 with the Eton which he used this weekend in Texas, that was a big hit also.
So Dannys well done design.
The TMWW what did you think of those.
More comments.
Dave,
Thanks for the welcome! I'm generally opposed to forums which require registration - aren't two dozen different logins and passwords enough?? - sometimes you just need to go where the people are.
When you say tubes last a long time, what are we talking here? 10 years? 20 years? I like to be specific. I have a Kenwood integrated amp that's going on 14 years with nary a problem. When you say a 10-20w tube amp would sound more powerful than a 40w a/v receiver, what would you say about a 80w a/v receiver, 100w? 120w? I'd be interested to hear your reasoning behind the 10-20w sounding like it has more power than a 40w receiver. And when I say watts, I'm always talking the IEC rating, RMS at a specified power bandwidth and distortion level, 0.05% THD is common for solid state, just in case....
Understand the comments were specific to that receiver and CD player. I just thought it odd to immediately suspect them as the problem, because if so, I didn't see how Al could listen to them! I've heard a LOT of SS receivers and CD players, and can say I honestly have never heard any that sounded that bright. Others' experience could certainly be the opposite of mine.
Al,
On the MCMs, I was referring (I think!) to the paint job specials, you know the ones that you said the stuff didn't dry and they then fell off and stuck to the fireplace hearth?? Despite the looks, I thought they sounded really good.
Almost forgot about the TMWW, probably because you played them first! I thought those also sounded really good. I had the impression that the bass was a bit thick or lacking in accuracy, but I had no idea if that was a trait of the speaker, the room, or the music itself.
Aaron Gilbert
Dave,
Thanks for the welcome! I'm generally opposed to forums which require registration - aren't two dozen different logins and passwords enough?? - sometimes you just need to go where the people are.
When you say tubes last a long time, what are we talking here? 10 years? 20 years? I like to be specific.
I have a Kenwood integrated amp that's going on 14 years with nary a problem. When you say a 10-20w tube amp would sound more powerful than a 40w a/v receiver, what would you say about a 80w a/v receiver, 100w? 120w? I'd be interested to hear your reasoning behind the 10-20w sounding like it has more power than a 40w receiver. And when I say watts, I'm always talking the IEC rating, RMS at a specified power bandwidth and distortion level, 0.05% THD is common for solid state, just in case.... Understand the comments were specific to that receiver and CD player. I just thought it odd to immediately suspect them as the problem, because if so, I didn't see how Al could listen to them! I've heard a LOT of SS receivers and CD players, and can say I honestly have never heard any that sounded that bright. Others' experience could certainly be the opposite of mine.
Al,
On the MCMs, I was referring (I think!) to the paint job specials, you know the ones that you said the stuff didn't dry and they then fell off and stuck to the fireplace hearth?? Despite the looks, I thought they sounded really good.
Almost forgot about the TMWW, probably because you played them first! I thought those also sounded really good. I had the impression that the bass was a bit thick or lacking in accuracy, but I had no idea if that was a trait of the speaker, the room, or the music itself.
Aaron Gilbert
Re: More comments.
That was my general opinion before i came here too. But it turns out that it is an essential part -- along with moderation -- that keeps the signal to noise ratio of this forum higher than most.
I've pulled some factory installedd 2A3s out of a 66 year old hifi and they were still at 70%. most of the tubes i pull are more like 30-50 years old and most are OK. Also think about the tube amps sitting at the bottom of the Atlantic used in the repeater amps for the undersea tel lines. Still working after they were decommissioned. And all those MIGs with tube electronics...
5 years of intense training at a very progressive hifi store + another 20 years practise has given me enuff experience to have a good idea what problems are coming from where. The sound in room 1 was very much of the type elicited by a poor CD player exacerbated by an amp that was getting a bit edgy once it had to deal with a real speaker.
IEC or FTC? I don't think AV receivers are actually subjected to FTC. Most cheap AV receivers have optimistic power ratings (and i've noticed, often into 6 ohms).
Now before i get into the subject of tube power vrs SS power, 1st let me make a comment about power into a real speaker load. I'll use an extreme example. The NAD3020 (20 W) vrs the Carver Cube (200W). One day at the hifi store we decided to compare them. Hooked them up to Magnepan SMGs which aren't a very difficult load, but are not very efficient. Fired up the Cube. Turned it up. Jeez it's clipping... not expected at such low levels. Well let's see how the amp in the 3020 does (we were using it as a pre). Sure enuff the 3020 played loader before clipping. I only ever used an amp's specs as a very general guidline -- ie once you hook an amp to a speaker the validity of its rated power are out the window, and it is different for every speaker.
Now tubes vrs SS. (Keep in mind that i am talking at a very general level here). When a SS amp clips it just stops. We get a flat top on a sine-wave, DC actually. This generates all sorts of ugly higher order harmonics (which the ear is more sensitive too). These get fed back thru the feedback loop and this generates even higher order harmonics. A tube amp on the other hand, compresses as it clips so we have a top that is flattening but still rounded. This generates primiarily low order harmonics, and because tube amps generally have lower feedback levels (because they are more linear to start with) we have way less higher harmonics.
These clipping characterics leave us a situation where we can't stand a SS amp clipping at all, but can tolerate a tube amp that is pushing well beyond its rated power. A ballpark is that this gives the tube amp a perceived 3-10 dB advantage. If the tube amp is 10 W the SS amp needs to be 20-100W.
And then you could factor in the transient nature of music with dynamics of say 20 dB (it can be more). Momentary clipping in a high feedback amp can cause an amp to just completely lose it for a time that is considerably longer than the transient. This can sound REAL ugly. With tube amps typically having less feedback than SS amps they exhibit this loss of control to a lessor degree.
The mostly meaningless lumped THD measurement is often achieved by increasing the feedback -- hence a suspicion that a number that is very small is a reason to suspect that an amp may not sound so good.
And on top of all this we have the specs/price war happening in the AV receiver world where sound quality is one of the very last concerns and you get amplifiers that under any real conditions do not put out anything near there rated output. I wouldn't be surprised at all if a good 4W class A PP tube amp (say EL84) actually had a percieved power greater than your 40 W budget reciever. (of course you have to consider here that 5 channels of that PP amp, even if DIYed out of recycled parts -- ie dyna SCA35s -- would cost more than your receiver did).
He can correct me, but i seem to recall that that system gets used by his dad to listen to the TV.
I have some comments coming on all the speakers for Al in another message, but thot that those particular MCMs aquitted themselves quite well.
dave
aaroncgi said:
That was my general opinion before i came here too. But it turns out that it is an essential part -- along with moderation -- that keeps the signal to noise ratio of this forum higher than most.
I've pulled some factory installedd 2A3s out of a 66 year old hifi and they were still at 70%. most of the tubes i pull are more like 30-50 years old and most are OK. Also think about the tube amps sitting at the bottom of the Atlantic used in the repeater amps for the undersea tel lines. Still working after they were decommissioned. And all those MIGs with tube electronics...
5 years of intense training at a very progressive hifi store + another 20 years practise has given me enuff experience to have a good idea what problems are coming from where. The sound in room 1 was very much of the type elicited by a poor CD player exacerbated by an amp that was getting a bit edgy once it had to deal with a real speaker.
When you say a 10-20w tube amp would sound more powerful than a 40w a/v receiver, what would you say about a 80w a/v receiver, 100w? 120w?
IEC or FTC? I don't think AV receivers are actually subjected to FTC. Most cheap AV receivers have optimistic power ratings (and i've noticed, often into 6 ohms).
Now before i get into the subject of tube power vrs SS power, 1st let me make a comment about power into a real speaker load. I'll use an extreme example. The NAD3020 (20 W) vrs the Carver Cube (200W). One day at the hifi store we decided to compare them. Hooked them up to Magnepan SMGs which aren't a very difficult load, but are not very efficient. Fired up the Cube. Turned it up. Jeez it's clipping... not expected at such low levels. Well let's see how the amp in the 3020 does (we were using it as a pre). Sure enuff the 3020 played loader before clipping. I only ever used an amp's specs as a very general guidline -- ie once you hook an amp to a speaker the validity of its rated power are out the window, and it is different for every speaker.
Now tubes vrs SS. (Keep in mind that i am talking at a very general level here). When a SS amp clips it just stops. We get a flat top on a sine-wave, DC actually. This generates all sorts of ugly higher order harmonics (which the ear is more sensitive too). These get fed back thru the feedback loop and this generates even higher order harmonics. A tube amp on the other hand, compresses as it clips so we have a top that is flattening but still rounded. This generates primiarily low order harmonics, and because tube amps generally have lower feedback levels (because they are more linear to start with) we have way less higher harmonics.
These clipping characterics leave us a situation where we can't stand a SS amp clipping at all, but can tolerate a tube amp that is pushing well beyond its rated power. A ballpark is that this gives the tube amp a perceived 3-10 dB advantage. If the tube amp is 10 W the SS amp needs to be 20-100W.
And then you could factor in the transient nature of music with dynamics of say 20 dB (it can be more). Momentary clipping in a high feedback amp can cause an amp to just completely lose it for a time that is considerably longer than the transient. This can sound REAL ugly. With tube amps typically having less feedback than SS amps they exhibit this loss of control to a lessor degree.
The mostly meaningless lumped THD measurement is often achieved by increasing the feedback -- hence a suspicion that a number that is very small is a reason to suspect that an amp may not sound so good.
And on top of all this we have the specs/price war happening in the AV receiver world where sound quality is one of the very last concerns and you get amplifiers that under any real conditions do not put out anything near there rated output. I wouldn't be surprised at all if a good 4W class A PP tube amp (say EL84) actually had a percieved power greater than your 40 W budget reciever. (of course you have to consider here that 5 channels of that PP amp, even if DIYed out of recycled parts -- ie dyna SCA35s -- would cost more than your receiver did).
He can correct me, but i seem to recall that that system gets used by his dad to listen to the TV.
I have some comments coming on all the speakers for Al in another message, but thot that those particular MCMs aquitted themselves quite well.
dave
I think it was...
I'm pretty sure Duane said his speakers (yes, they were in the all black cabinets) were using the SEAS P17 (which version??) woofer. As to the tweeter, I had thought he said it was a Vifa unit, but looking in the latest Madisound catalog, there's no match. Looking in the Seas section, looks like we have a match with the 25TAFC/D or 25TAF/DTV, the latter being shielded. That's speculation, but it's my guess.
Aaron Gilbert
I'm pretty sure Duane said his speakers (yes, they were in the all black cabinets) were using the SEAS P17 (which version??) woofer. As to the tweeter, I had thought he said it was a Vifa unit, but looking in the latest Madisound catalog, there's no match. Looking in the Seas section, looks like we have a match with the 25TAFC/D or 25TAF/DTV, the latter being shielded. That's speculation, but it's my guess.
Aaron Gilbert
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