I thot this post from the JoeList might be interesting to some (and maybe even invoke some discussion with content).
dave
__________________________________
I was told by a respected cable designer that cryogenically treating copper
and brass (actually any conductive non ferrous material) has an effect
because the molecular contraction of the base metal squeezes out the
dissolved gases. We often hear talk and use of oxygen free copper (OFHC). In
the old days you could achieve this by vacuum casting copper. Now you can
take standard electrolytic copper (99.9% pure) and cryogenically treat this
to achieve the 4N purity (99.99%).
My guess in respect to what cryoing does to tubes is this: The dissolved
molecular gas within the glass and metal structures gets expelled with the
cold shrinkage. When returned to normal temperatures, the gas can then be
absorbed by the getter, which was the purpose of the getter anyway. In
addition to the elimination of some gas, the metals now have a higher purity
and as the dissolved gasses will hinder signal transfer, tending to collect
at the crystalline boundaries within the base metal, signal to noise ratio
should be lower.
__________________________________
dave
__________________________________
I was told by a respected cable designer that cryogenically treating copper
and brass (actually any conductive non ferrous material) has an effect
because the molecular contraction of the base metal squeezes out the
dissolved gases. We often hear talk and use of oxygen free copper (OFHC). In
the old days you could achieve this by vacuum casting copper. Now you can
take standard electrolytic copper (99.9% pure) and cryogenically treat this
to achieve the 4N purity (99.99%).
My guess in respect to what cryoing does to tubes is this: The dissolved
molecular gas within the glass and metal structures gets expelled with the
cold shrinkage. When returned to normal temperatures, the gas can then be
absorbed by the getter, which was the purpose of the getter anyway. In
addition to the elimination of some gas, the metals now have a higher purity
and as the dissolved gasses will hinder signal transfer, tending to collect
at the crystalline boundaries within the base metal, signal to noise ratio
should be lower.
__________________________________
I believe that the process involves
temperature and pressure, a cryogenic foundry/casting system.
the old days -- you cast the copper in an oxygen free environment. we used to do something like this when I worked (as a lab rat) in the solid state physics lab (and the work convinced me to get an MBA rather than a PhD) -- took our copper alloys placed them in a special vacuum furnace, dumped out the air, pumped in argon and alloyed copper with gold, etc. My job was to take the sample derived thereby and cut it into chips with a special diamond saw -- and this took hours and hours! (In fact, the technician still works there and he said -- I remember you, you were the one always breaking the diamond saw blades!)
When you put the sample in a very low temperature environment (i.e. close to zero degrees kelvin) and observe the conductivity with temperature you get some really interesting results -- mind you this was before superconductivity was as easy to achieve.i,e, the 1960's. This is where I learned how to make a phase-lock amp with 12AX7's, learned all about noise elimination!
One of the favorite antics of a Jesuit in the physics lab was to take a hot dog, place it in the nitrogen dewar, withdraw it and smash it to smithereens with a mallet.
temperature and pressure, a cryogenic foundry/casting system.
the old days -- you cast the copper in an oxygen free environment. we used to do something like this when I worked (as a lab rat) in the solid state physics lab (and the work convinced me to get an MBA rather than a PhD) -- took our copper alloys placed them in a special vacuum furnace, dumped out the air, pumped in argon and alloyed copper with gold, etc. My job was to take the sample derived thereby and cut it into chips with a special diamond saw -- and this took hours and hours! (In fact, the technician still works there and he said -- I remember you, you were the one always breaking the diamond saw blades!)
When you put the sample in a very low temperature environment (i.e. close to zero degrees kelvin) and observe the conductivity with temperature you get some really interesting results -- mind you this was before superconductivity was as easy to achieve.i,e, the 1960's. This is where I learned how to make a phase-lock amp with 12AX7's, learned all about noise elimination!
One of the favorite antics of a Jesuit in the physics lab was to take a hot dog, place it in the nitrogen dewar, withdraw it and smash it to smithereens with a mallet.
NEW JERSEY HOME OF...
Hi fellows,
And that is exactly how it is done right at your doorstep:
http://www.phelpsdodge.com/
This is the former Hudson Wire cable company we buy the bare wires from.
The insulating is done by BICC Vero in the U.K. except for the kapton polyimide on some cables which is done at Phelps directly.
Now with all this cryo buzz going on:
As you state this has been done for many years and was part and parcel of the production process whenever high (+4N) purity wires were needed.
See also:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7253
For most industrial wire far more attention is paid to tensile strengt and therefore most contain steelalloys to improve upon that particular factor.
One thing to keep in mind while Ohno casting is that these longer crystal structures are inherently far more brittle and if one has a lattice interruption somewhere down the wire it renders the whole procees pretty moot.
As as tubes are concerned:
I firmly believe it would be better to :
-Cryo treat the parts before they get assembled.
-Use better getter flashers.
In conclusion:
As far as cables go: the coppermine is just as important and a lot of the stuff is actually manufacture according to cryo methods anyway.
For instance the initial success of the Tara Labs cables had a lot to do with the fine quality copper (for audio anyway) of most Australian mines.
A lot of audiophiles still appreciate the Belgian cable factories such as Lucas and the "Cablerie de Eupen",both use Congolese copper of fine quality.
Is this then just an arguement to ask higher prices for the same stuff??
I'll leave that up to the public to judge.
Regards,
Hi fellows,
And that is exactly how it is done right at your doorstep:
http://www.phelpsdodge.com/
This is the former Hudson Wire cable company we buy the bare wires from.
The insulating is done by BICC Vero in the U.K. except for the kapton polyimide on some cables which is done at Phelps directly.
Now with all this cryo buzz going on:
As you state this has been done for many years and was part and parcel of the production process whenever high (+4N) purity wires were needed.
See also:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7253
For most industrial wire far more attention is paid to tensile strengt and therefore most contain steelalloys to improve upon that particular factor.
One thing to keep in mind while Ohno casting is that these longer crystal structures are inherently far more brittle and if one has a lattice interruption somewhere down the wire it renders the whole procees pretty moot.
As as tubes are concerned:
I firmly believe it would be better to :
-Cryo treat the parts before they get assembled.
-Use better getter flashers.
In conclusion:
As far as cables go: the coppermine is just as important and a lot of the stuff is actually manufacture according to cryo methods anyway.
For instance the initial success of the Tara Labs cables had a lot to do with the fine quality copper (for audio anyway) of most Australian mines.
A lot of audiophiles still appreciate the Belgian cable factories such as Lucas and the "Cablerie de Eupen",both use Congolese copper of fine quality.
Is this then just an arguement to ask higher prices for the same stuff??
I'll leave that up to the public to judge.
Regards,
ME?
Hi Dave,
Thank you for your interest.
Most of what I did was consultancy work for audio companies and some industries.
I prefer audio because it's more fun.
Often as free-lance or on a participation basis,whatever we arrive at.
I had a break from it back in 1996 when my on company went belly up due to circomstances not of my doing.
Went to work for Siemens,one of my clients,to manage a huge IT project at our local ministry and when that was running smoothly I left them to live in Munich for a while,doing extensive travelling with the GF and her two kids.
After we split I got back to Belgium and am currently refreshing my audio stuff together with all of you while playing sysadmin for a segment of the Siemens network and assisting some current projects for them.
A lot of the details of what I did are scattered around in various threads around the forum.
It will take a day's work to piece it all together.
I would mind going public with all the details since most of these partners are still in the audio business and usually appreciate both publicity and discretion,depending.
In case you would like to exchange more experiences or details from me I don't mind at all doing that in private.
After all I'm clogging up the forum enough as it stands with my silly posts.
Cheers,
Hi Dave,
Thank you for your interest.
Most of what I did was consultancy work for audio companies and some industries.
I prefer audio because it's more fun.
Often as free-lance or on a participation basis,whatever we arrive at.
I had a break from it back in 1996 when my on company went belly up due to circomstances not of my doing.
Went to work for Siemens,one of my clients,to manage a huge IT project at our local ministry and when that was running smoothly I left them to live in Munich for a while,doing extensive travelling with the GF and her two kids.
After we split I got back to Belgium and am currently refreshing my audio stuff together with all of you while playing sysadmin for a segment of the Siemens network and assisting some current projects for them.
A lot of the details of what I did are scattered around in various threads around the forum.
It will take a day's work to piece it all together.
I would mind going public with all the details since most of these partners are still in the audio business and usually appreciate both publicity and discretion,depending.
In case you would like to exchange more experiences or details from me I don't mind at all doing that in private.
After all I'm clogging up the forum enough as it stands with my silly posts.
Cheers,
Re: UH OH
No. But of late you have been doing a good job of setting new standards for content-free posts. Fortuneatly many of them are over in Everything Else where it doesn't matter.
<FOLLOWING of importance to all>
Since we have installed moderators, there has been a general push to increase the signal-to-noise ratio -- more meat in the audio threads. So that when one comes looking for hifi info they don't have to wade thru too much other stuff (mind you a little of that can add flavour).
That is also why you will sometimes find entire new threads in Everything Else where interesting "noise" is shunted off to help keep an audio/video thread's S/N high.
dave
(moderator hat on)
fdegrove said:
No. But of late you have been doing a good job of setting new standards for content-free posts. Fortuneatly many of them are over in Everything Else where it doesn't matter.
<FOLLOWING of importance to all>
Since we have installed moderators, there has been a general push to increase the signal-to-noise ratio -- more meat in the audio threads. So that when one comes looking for hifi info they don't have to wade thru too much other stuff (mind you a little of that can add flavour).
That is also why you will sometimes find entire new threads in Everything Else where interesting "noise" is shunted off to help keep an audio/video thread's S/N high.
dave
(moderator hat on)
OH UH
Hi,
Was it that obvious then?
In all honnesty I do not care that much about that.
I feel I've got soo much more to learn that I would happily decline that kind of attribute.
No,that sudden rush for the isiosyncratic,idiotic post disease must have come from a few nutty professors on the other end of the Pacific.
Take a pick,
Hi,
Was it that obvious then?
In all honnesty I do not care that much about that.
I feel I've got soo much more to learn that I would happily decline that kind of attribute.
No,that sudden rush for the isiosyncratic,idiotic post disease must have come from a few nutty professors on the other end of the Pacific.
Take a pick,
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