Hi John,
We are in agreement.
I am about to move my gear from between the speakers to the other end of a 20' room. I will use 12 Ga only because I want to. The speakers are 4 R, so 18 Ga wire might be a bit on the thin side.
The wire gauge tables are based on current and a 10 °C temperature rise if I'm not mistaken. Clearly this is unsuitable. I once (as a teenager in a rush) used quad phone wire (20 Ga?) on a pair of 12W tube amps, 8R load. I lost a lot of the power in the wire. Replacing with 18 Ga lamp cord (pot 64) made a huge difference. Going heavier later on didn't seem to make any difference at all. I believe the runs were on the order of 20 ~ 25 feet.
We could go on about localization effects, but the room may have even more to say about that.
-Chris
We are in agreement.
I am about to move my gear from between the speakers to the other end of a 20' room. I will use 12 Ga only because I want to. The speakers are 4 R, so 18 Ga wire might be a bit on the thin side.
The wire gauge tables are based on current and a 10 °C temperature rise if I'm not mistaken. Clearly this is unsuitable. I once (as a teenager in a rush) used quad phone wire (20 Ga?) on a pair of 12W tube amps, 8R load. I lost a lot of the power in the wire. Replacing with 18 Ga lamp cord (pot 64) made a huge difference. Going heavier later on didn't seem to make any difference at all. I believe the runs were on the order of 20 ~ 25 feet.
We could go on about localization effects, but the room may have even more to say about that.
-Chris
Panicos K said:
It was a joke...we are separated by a little more than just a pond, it seems.
It is fun to speak with others from around the world, as sometimes our confusion is as funny as the jokes we tell..and miss.
It is sad when our different languages lead to anger however, where none should be.
This thread has been enjoyable, do not make the mistake of thinking I am upset at any time..life is too short..
Cheers, John
I know it was a joke.But most important is what you said about life.Sitting in front of my computer tonight was something I needed very much hoping to find someone to say something,even silly things,after the second day I spent with my sister in hospital's intensive care unit where our mother is.Thanks for responding to my joke.Its worth more than a million dollars prize....
In order yo somehow put an end to it, c0uld we agree to a final statement and close thsi thread?
1 Differences in cables are measurable.
2. All the evidence of audibility of those differences is anecdotal only.
3. All tests that have so far been conduxted have failed to clearly verify this audibility.
4. This could be due to two reasons:
4.1 The methodology is flawed and an acceptable test has so far not been conducted
4.2. The methodology is flawed but the results of those flawed tests indicate that the audibility is at such a low level that unambigous results are not obtainable.
And then we close...
or we "achieve closure" in the tongue of the modern social worker and grief consultant....a pest on their houses...
1 Differences in cables are measurable.
2. All the evidence of audibility of those differences is anecdotal only.
3. All tests that have so far been conduxted have failed to clearly verify this audibility.
4. This could be due to two reasons:
4.1 The methodology is flawed and an acceptable test has so far not been conducted
4.2. The methodology is flawed but the results of those flawed tests indicate that the audibility is at such a low level that unambigous results are not obtainable.
And then we close...
or we "achieve closure" in the tongue of the modern social worker and grief consultant....a pest on their houses...
the answer is YES, absolutely
and I don't know what it depends on.
I know that on my current rig, the Tara Labs RSC Prime 1000 delivers music which sounds MUCH more realistic....tighter bass, more lifelike voices and sweeter highs than the Kimber TC cables that sounded best in my previous rig which had different amp and speaker.
The best way to find the best (to you) sounding cables is to borrow from friends, from stores ( if they'll let you)...from audio society buddies etc....that is the best way to find you optimal sound.
But know that when you change an amp...or speakers - all bets are off on that cable being able to deliver the goods for your ears.
And yes, price doesn't necessarily improve the sound. I have had heavy guage lamp cord that sounded better than some borrowed exotic cables I tried here.
and I don't know what it depends on.
I know that on my current rig, the Tara Labs RSC Prime 1000 delivers music which sounds MUCH more realistic....tighter bass, more lifelike voices and sweeter highs than the Kimber TC cables that sounded best in my previous rig which had different amp and speaker.
The best way to find the best (to you) sounding cables is to borrow from friends, from stores ( if they'll let you)...from audio society buddies etc....that is the best way to find you optimal sound.
But know that when you change an amp...or speakers - all bets are off on that cable being able to deliver the goods for your ears.
And yes, price doesn't necessarily improve the sound. I have had heavy guage lamp cord that sounded better than some borrowed exotic cables I tried here.
I agree. Most significant effect is the fact, that both (i. e. pos. and neg.) wires uses common insulation.
Best results one will get in general with dependent rails for the pos. and neg. wire (due eliminating most of intrinsic capacity) like this one - a so called single wire cable:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...5-single-wire-cable-what-other-option.347897/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/unknown-speaker-wire-with-interesting-features.300190/
my favorite low cost approach is this cable
https://www.lets-sell.de/netzwerk/v...MI3IS9zfOs9wIVmIXVCh1jnwCVEAQYAyABEgJdxfD_BwE
https://www.wiltanet.de/pc/netzwerk...l-cat7-datenkabel-orange-1000mhz-neu/a-119424
not easy to beat in sonic performance.
check out this URL's
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-null-tester.347300/
https://audioxpress.com/article/you-can-diy-building-a-null-tester-device
Gosh! This discussion is still going! Basically, there are a few features that minimizes additional coloration to the sound:
1. Minimizing electromagnetic interaction of currents in the positive and negative lines.
2. Smooth transition of cross section area variation from speaker cable to driver coil.
3. Uniform material molecules of conductors as well as high density material.
4. Cross section radius of each conducting strand should be about the skin depth of 20KHz signal or less.
5. Least amount of strands in criteria 4 to build up the total cross section needed.
6. Consider insulating each strand.
1. Minimizing electromagnetic interaction of currents in the positive and negative lines.
2. Smooth transition of cross section area variation from speaker cable to driver coil.
3. Uniform material molecules of conductors as well as high density material.
4. Cross section radius of each conducting strand should be about the skin depth of 20KHz signal or less.
5. Least amount of strands in criteria 4 to build up the total cross section needed.
6. Consider insulating each strand.
^tried to reason this and came to a conclusion it reads "any speaker cable works just fine"
If you google up skin effect you'll find that about ~0.5mm skin forms for ~20kHz meaning that at 20kHz AC current would travel only on the surface of the conductor, or at the outermost ~0.5mm thick layer. If the conductor is significantly thicker than this then the low frequencies have relatively less resistance as they use the whole cross section while the 20kHz flows only at the outer layer or skin, having more resistance (smaller cross sectional area in comparison).
I didn't fact check the numbers, but if we use these as baseline for calculations we get that about 1mm diameter round conductor won't have significant skin effect within audio band. All speaker cables I've had have strands thinner than this. If the conductor has little bit larger diameter than 1mm the resistance due to skin effect won't drop too soon as the outer skin has still significant amount of cross sectional area in comparison to the whole cross section. Then, check out resistance of the cables it is something like 8 ohms per kilometer so 10 meter speaker cable has about 0,08ohm resistance. I feel if this resistance increases for example 50% due to skin effect it still doesn't matter in the system level.
Inductance and capacitance of the cable would affect some, but these are also issues that can be kept at bay with short cables. Keep cables short and even the cheapest will do.
If you google up skin effect you'll find that about ~0.5mm skin forms for ~20kHz meaning that at 20kHz AC current would travel only on the surface of the conductor, or at the outermost ~0.5mm thick layer. If the conductor is significantly thicker than this then the low frequencies have relatively less resistance as they use the whole cross section while the 20kHz flows only at the outer layer or skin, having more resistance (smaller cross sectional area in comparison).
I didn't fact check the numbers, but if we use these as baseline for calculations we get that about 1mm diameter round conductor won't have significant skin effect within audio band. All speaker cables I've had have strands thinner than this. If the conductor has little bit larger diameter than 1mm the resistance due to skin effect won't drop too soon as the outer skin has still significant amount of cross sectional area in comparison to the whole cross section. Then, check out resistance of the cables it is something like 8 ohms per kilometer so 10 meter speaker cable has about 0,08ohm resistance. I feel if this resistance increases for example 50% due to skin effect it still doesn't matter in the system level.
Inductance and capacitance of the cable would affect some, but these are also issues that can be kept at bay with short cables. Keep cables short and even the cheapest will do.
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Quick googling reveals inductance in cable has most effect as length of the cable increases, or it looks like it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire
Then, one can make low inductance cable by twisting for example CAT5 cable. https://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Low-Inductance-DIY-Speaker-Cables/
Less inductance in exchange for little bit more capacitance and resistance, all still fine.
Perhaps there is audible effects. Not worth losing sleep on it though. Make sure your speakers don't beam, that can affect the top octave performance way more than any of this. 1% loss used in the Wikipedia entry examples as audible effect happens with about 1.5m lamp cord. 1% loss is ~0.05dB change, perhaps audible, perhaps not.
Then, one can make low inductance cable by twisting for example CAT5 cable. https://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Low-Inductance-DIY-Speaker-Cables/
Less inductance in exchange for little bit more capacitance and resistance, all still fine.
Perhaps there is audible effects. Not worth losing sleep on it though. Make sure your speakers don't beam, that can affect the top octave performance way more than any of this. 1% loss used in the Wikipedia entry examples as audible effect happens with about 1.5m lamp cord. 1% loss is ~0.05dB change, perhaps audible, perhaps not.
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Cables do make a difference in audio, mostly not enough to hear.
However I was working on a CCTV system and was tasked with buying wire for the long runs of cable to the cameras.
So I bought in a few different types and was surprised at the difference in resistance of the copper.
Some copper isnt as good quality.
However the signal power doesn't actually run in the wire but outside the wire in magnetic and electric fields.
See video below for proof.
However I was working on a CCTV system and was tasked with buying wire for the long runs of cable to the cameras.
So I bought in a few different types and was surprised at the difference in resistance of the copper.
Some copper isnt as good quality.
However the signal power doesn't actually run in the wire but outside the wire in magnetic and electric fields.
See video below for proof.
Actually, stranded CAT 5e conductors is what I use for internal wiring, in my own test case, 6 of the 8 strands used measured and sounded the best for the 45cm length. This I attribute to such being larger cross section than the voice coil conductors, but smaller cross area than the external speaker cables. For this same length, I have also tried thinner strands, but as the strand count went up, the sound became fuzzy. With thicker cross section, the sound became slightly bloated.
The answer to that is likely that someone's cable business slowing down.
No, the member that re-opened this thread, did the same to dozens of other threads in April.
In some he was the OP, in others he responded to his own old posts
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