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Old 22nd December 2005, 03:06 AM   #21
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Default audio myths

I appreciate when people like mikeks have the courage to speak their mind and go against the status quo to raise valid points. My problem with subjectivism as a viable method of audio component analysis boils down to these points:


1.what sounds good to you, may very well sound bad to me. How do you discern who has the "Golden Ears" and who is an "Uneducated Listener" especially when discussing topics like we do on this forum.

2. How do you know if your design is moving in a positive direction. You may think your current version of a 'audio widget' is better than the last, but an audiophile critic may shun your latest work for some subjective reason, killing some of its commercial appeal.

3. Other fields show clear quantifiable advancements. Car manufacturers boast better MPG, more HP, etc.. Digital electronics designers show improvement in instructions executed per second. Why does the audio community shun measurement as the only viable method that shows clear advancement of the discipline.


Why is it so hard to believe it is a good thing if an amplifier passes a signal from input to output adding only minute amounts of harmonic content and noise? It's not a conspiracy, black magic, or a trick. It can be proven and has repeatibility. It shows advancement of the science.This is undoubtedly and undeniably a GOOD THING!
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Old 22nd December 2005, 03:35 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by SY


Unless, of course, it's not real, just my human brain playing tricks on me. Naughty, naughty brain. Thinks about girls, then goes and fools me about wire.
Thank god someone else thinks that as well (and mentioned it). I'm a believer that many subjective differences are all in the head.

One of my favorites of audio reviewers is ones who write in their article that they immediately disliked "X" product, but after burn-in (say, 200 hours), it sounded wonderful.

Durr.. No kidding, maybe it's because you're used to hearing it now.. You know, that you've listened to it long enough that your brain has acclimated itself to whatever differences there were before it.

I don't agree with everything in the article, but a lot of it really holds true in my mind
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Old 22nd December 2005, 03:46 AM   #23
poobah is offline poobah  United States
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THIS thread seems to have a GOOD begining...

I especially like the remark about "burn in"...
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Old 22nd December 2005, 04:09 AM   #24
lineup is offline lineup  Sweden
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I have thought about this way we can do some 'real life' testing.


Say you have a friend that is very happy, because he has installed some new 'audiograde' caps in his amplifier. He says it sounds so much better now. Definitively an improvement!

You buy some 'no-name' normal quality caps with same size, some caps of the audiograde brand and exchange the plastic wrapping with label on.
Now you have 'no-name' caps with 'audiophile' and identical look.

Say you know someone in his family and are allowed to get in to his amplifier.
You exchange his caps in amplifier when he is at work.

Now just wait.
Maybe he starts posting here his amplifier does not sound as good.
And needs advice about what is the matter with his amplifier.

Maybe he doesnt notice a thing.
After a couple of years, you can reveal the truth about his audiograde' caps.


I have my own opinion of the probability he would notice anything.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 04:18 AM   #25
AJT is offline AJT  Philippines
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Quote:
One of my favorites of audio reviewers is ones who write in their article that they immediately disliked "X" product, but after burn-in (say, 200 hours), it sounded wonderful.
i see this posted every now and then, but the opposite seems to work with me, first time hearing an amp, i get goose pimples, hair standing on end! elated!

but several sessions later with the amp, the magic wears off!

wonder if others experience the same!

that is why i can not relate to that 200hour burn in thing!
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Old 22nd December 2005, 04:22 AM   #26
sam9 is offline sam9  United States
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i see this posted every now and then, but the opposite seems to work with me, first time hearing an amp, i get goose pimples, hair standing on end! elated!
I think the condition is called "being a gearhead". I.e., anything new is exciting but as time passes it isn't so new and the excitment wanes. At various times for me this has applied to cars, boats, PC's, . . . the list is endless.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 04:27 AM   #27
lineup is offline lineup  Sweden
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I am also very skeptical to electronic components need a burn in.
I think most of it will work as good from start.
Trafos, transistors, resistors, wires and cables.

When it comes to loudspeaker woofers, I am not so sure.
They are mechnical constructions that are moving.
Maybe the suspension can change some after some use.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 04:28 AM   #28
rdf is offline rdf  Canada
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Well poobah, it probably doesn't surprise you I don't. Once again the presumption is people who've written published reviews of equipment for years, in some cases decades, are rubes who would never have considered this. It's uncharitable at best. Some of these people, Cordesman for example, are very intelligent and accomplished individuals outside of the audio industry. I'm not sure how many of us have provided military analysis on Nightline. They are not uniformly dumb.

It a common problem with authors like Aczel and Elliot who claim to represent reason and science, they often throw the method out the window in regards to the characters, motivations and capabilities of those with whom they disagree. Take his comments about Golden Ears, which describes no one I know on this forum. Here's a worthwhile exercise: prove his conjecture 10. Demonstrate how the majority of those who claim to hear things he considers impossible also claim it's the result of 'special auditory powers'. Plenty here ascribe it to the same learned skill and experience Aczel describes, none I know claim otherwise. There's mountain of material here, on usenet, on other forums, it should be a cakewalk to cull dozens of such comments from the cable thread alone if Peter is right.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 04:33 AM   #29
AJT is offline AJT  Philippines
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Quote:
I am also very skeptical to electronic components need a burn in.
i worked for AMD Advance Micro Devices here in manila from 1979 to 1988, and i know for a fact that we do burn-ins on ic's prior to shipment to end costumers.

so i see no point in burning them again once the amps are construted.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 05:19 AM   #30
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally posted by SY

Interesting that you should mention that, even as a joke. I was at a wire demonstration recently and that was exactly the difference that we "heard."
I believe you heard the real thing, SY. And I thought that the original statement was just a typo.

There's a brand known as Shark. They have silver speaker cable called "Musical Love" and a copper cable called "Fullrange (?)". Having used their products, I don't think they are stupid in term of listening ability.

I'm also agree with GRollins about hearing compensation for the blinds. I have audio hobby for more than 15 years, but I have a very limited knowledge related to audio. So I have been pushed to use my ears.

About "taster". I'm not only sensitive with sound but also with everything. I don't like drinking (pure) water. But I know that it is good for kidney health. So there are brands that my "mouth" cannot accept, and there are brands that I like better. I have done AB test to prove this. I don't drink sparkling water because I have too much money. Many here boil their drinking water.
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