Suggestions for Companies Selling Kits

[AnthonyPT]

Hi,

There are lots of simple things kit sellers could do
to make assembly easier. Labeling on circuit boards
would be a nice one. A Playmaster amp and a 3 way
crossover need a lot of patience as they don't mark
the boards even though they are single sided. If
the boards have few components ok but a driver board
for a mosfet amp or a closely packed 3 way electronic
crossover does need a bit more. All those resistors
need a correct location and it does not help if
you decide to change the frequency values as the
location of the R & 2R resistors are not marked!

I do like the way Rod Elliott at ESP has a Forum for
his products and I note some others do it too. I get
back to the Powerpoint (ppt) idea where you see the steps
and get guidence on the best order to do them in. The PPT
could have info about the forum for product support and as
time goes along any new updates. Multisession Cds supplied
with the kits would allow the customer to update to the latest PDF,
PPT or release notes on the product. Perhaps a Podcast to
owners would also help. Good product made better
by information! IMHO


On the Jaycar sample I am amused by the Quality Assurance
sticker. Does this cover assembly tutorials?? I think not!

I have just been looking at a Stereo 70 manual on PDF
it has 18 pages and seems fairly well laid out. The
Eiclone manuals and similar look like some effort has
gone into them. Many of the Jaycar and Altronics kits
are just articles recycled with a parts list.

If I can find a spare moment I will do a mindmap
that might help one man outfits offer more and in
the process save time for themselves. Once you
sell and continue to sell kits it is a "live" entity
and customer feedback and improvements with revisions
can only increase customer trust if the information
is shared with the end users.

Regards

AthonyPT



http://www.welbornelabs.com/st70manual.pdf

 

[AnthonyPT]

Hi

Heres the image. Maybe a code of recommendations
would be good. perhaps with a star rating or some
insentive to encourage sellers to work with their customers
to improve products. No labels is not one of them !

AnthonyPT

 

[wintermute]

I think something has gone wrong with the image uploading component on the server Anthony, my image had the same fate! I'll post something in the tech support section.

Tony.

 

[hongrn]

Everyone keeps talking about how our litigious our societies are. Velleman USA has been selling kits for decades, kits from 1 watt to 200 watts. They specify or include some of the baddest and meanest trannies in their kits. They also include some of the best instructions in the business. They would have abandoned the kit business long ago if people keep suing them for electrocution burns or deaths. I doubt that people who buy kits sue anyone. Yet, the topic keeps being brought up as a justification for whatever. The point is, if you send a kit out to a customer, please make sure that the parts and the BOM match. If there are changes, in this day and age of web and pdf, it takes 3 minutes to make the change, etc, etc, etc... If we sent you a bogus money order, or $48 instead of $50, would that upset you? What is then your justification to send out an incomplete kit, or lousy instructions, or undocumented changes, because you run a small operation?

 

[wintermute]

They would have abandoned the kit business long ago if people keep suing them for electrocution burns or deaths. I doubt that people who buy kits sue anyone. Yet, the topic keeps being brought up as a justification for whatever.

I think you are misinterpreting peoples respsonse hong.

I brought up the legal thing because you were suggesting a bill of rights, not because I thought anyone was going to be suing people because they electrocuted themsleves.... a bill of rights IMO is meaningless if there is no enforcement, hence the reference to legal issues for the DIY Audio team. I know one poster did mention litigation, and I think he has a valid point, but he did not use it in any way as an excuse for anything that the kit sellers are doing.

The point is, if you send a kit out to a customer, please make sure that the parts and the BOM match. If there are changes, in this day and age of web and pdf, it takes 3 minutes to make the change, etc, etc, etc...

This point was already made, no one said no they shouldn't of course they should update the BOM if the parts count changes, or at least insert an erata! At least one of the kit suppliers I'm aware of does mention why there are extra parts in the kit above what is on the BOM.

What is then your justification to send out an incomplete kit, or lousy instructions, or undocumented changes, because you run a small operation?

It sounds like you have a problem with a particular kit supplier, but this thread was (I thought) supposed to be about improvements that ALL kit suppliers can make. to me like it looks like it is turning into a mud slinging match..... and the casual observer may think all kit suppliers are providing a sub standard service.

I think this thread has been useful, but I think it is deteriorating and turning into one of those threads We all have our oppinions, and I don't think from the looks of things that there is any chance of a general concensus being reached here. Hopefully some of this discussion makes a positive difference!!

I'll get off my now I've said all I want to and I think maybe we should all give it a rest

Tony.

 

[Nuuk]

One further suggestion - for the total newbs provide some good practical guidance for case layout, and sources for cases. Point out sources and keep them up to date.

I've lost count of the examples that I have seen on this forum! What's the matter with a little research?

The bottom line is this - if you are a total newb you need to do the necessary research to bring yourself 'up to speed'. Expecting anybody supplying a kit to transform the buyer from a total novice into an expert DIYer as part of deal is unrealistic and unreasonable! Even if such a service was possible, it would raise the price of kits to a point where it was cheaper to buy a commercial alternative!

I'm not saying that suppliers shouldn't supply some instructions with their kits but as somebody has already said - there is no 'one size fits all' in this game and it's not possible to cater for everybody. That's one of the reasons we have forums!

If anybody is not sure about buying a kit, it's easy enough to get some feedback from the forums before placing an order. I would have had a lot more sympathy for hongrn's argument if we did not have the Internet. But if we didn't, he couldn't have raised his argument in the first place!

 

[flaevor]

I don't feel that comparing the chip amp suppliers on this forum to Velleman is a fair comparison. However it would still be smart to take to heart some of the suggestions made here.

In general I am also happy with my purchase. But I still have several questions for which I do not think I have found sufficient answers. I'm going to have to read up on basic electronics before continuing, so much is clear. And then I'm going to post all my remaining questions for your expert opinions. I don't want to build and rebuild. I think a lot of noobs like me don't want to worry about the electronics and focus more on the chassis design. It has become clear to me that these to things are integrated in more than one way so I will be planning mine very carefully and trying to way out all the advantages and disadvantages before starting.

Vikash you're absolutely right. It occurred to me that a multimeter would have been the better solution. But I'm still confident I got it right. So I guess I'll be buying one soon. I had planned on borrowing one at some point but now I think I'll just buy one and get it over with.

 

[rabbitz]

Need a DMM in this hobby for sure. Just spend a little time with it to learn how to use it properly and you'll be laughing.... amp builder's best friend.

Word of warning.... when probing around, make sure you don't short anything..... zap... ohhhhhhhh. Get some probe leads with hooks like the Parrot leads so you can place them in position with hands off before you apply power.... worth every cent.

http://www1.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_6310.jpg

 

[hongrn]

to me like it looks like it is turning into a mud slinging match.....

Hello Tony,

I think mudslinging and name calling belong to people who can't debate. I have offered my points and counterpoints, spoken in general and not focused on any particular vendor. I have written about my experience, and gathered a few things I picked up by reading the forum. I didn't self appoint to represent anything. I'm just posting an opinion. Years of running very successful businesses have given me a good outlook on how to succeed: good customer service. Whether you run a part time or full time enterprise, your customers make or break you. Period. That's my point of view. Please feel free to disagree. And I agree with you, we've all said enough on the topic, time to give it a rest. Without discourse, there's no problem solving. Five years from now, I bet you we'll see the same old problems posted if things don't change.

Best Regards,

Hong

 

[AnthonyPT]

Hi

Today went a bought a 6 channel volume control kit
in a rack mount on special for AUD$149.99. Its the
Silicon Chip one. Realised it would be easier to follow
if the photocopied manual was in Colour not B/w. They did
have markings for components on the board which was encouraging.
Also while in Jaycar in Perth I saw a Playmaster3 amp box and
it had notes to the effect that a "blue print step by step
manual" was provided. So maybe some kits are getting better.

We have to remember that Hifi kits have been out for years( Eico Dyna etc) and the tradition was set to supply paper based notes on construction. The assistance that the kit sellers provides perhaps can now take a 21st Century leap forward using new electronic media tools to save these sellers time and ultimately money. The better the service the higher chance of good word of mouth reports on a specific supplier of kits.

Now I have to see go see if anyone has sonic improvements for this item that sports TL072s and LM1973Ns in the signal path. Would that a forum had developed for said kit with tweakers doing "amazing" things such as doing an XLR from DCX2496 to 4vRMS RCA that this kit likes ! ! !

Education is really the only way. People sometimes don't know that they don't know. We are all here to learn from each other in DIY land.

IMHO We are not here to play superiors and inferiors.

regards

AnthonyPT

 

[pinkmouse]

Moved the thread because it's becoming more general than just chip amps.

 

[wintermute]

Hello Tony,

I think mudslinging and name calling belong to people who can't debate. I have offered my points and counterpoints, spoken in general and not focused on any particular vendor. I have written about my experience, and gathered a few things I picked up by reading the forum. I didn't self appoint to represent anything. I'm just posting an opinion. Years of running very successful businesses have given me a good outlook on how to succeed: good customer service. Whether you run a part time or full time enterprise, your customers make or break you. Period. That's my point of view. Please feel free to disagree. And I agree with you, we've all said enough on the topic, time to give it a rest. Without discourse, there's no problem solving. Five years from now, I bet you we'll see the same old problems posted if things don't change.

Best Regards,

Hong

Hi Hong,

debate is good makes people think about things they otherwise wouldn't. time will tell if it has been productive

cheers

Tony.

 

[javven]

Amp makers, esp should build their project at least every 2-3 months with parts they DO NOT have on hand. That way, they can keep a running list of current part makers. This will help them, their customer AND businesses who's success compliments their own.

FULL KITS should be available for the first timer. I mean chassis, toriod, caps and heat sinks. If you want to cut something out? Cut out the easy-to-get stuff, resistors, run-o-the-mill caps, etc. It doesn't do a builder any good if he can't figure out a chassis, heatsink etc, but has the board plugged.

 

[quickshift]

I think what would be useful is letting newbie's know what they need to know and where to find the information.

It's all out there on the internet so maybe people could post links here to websites containing the information?

For examples and background information.

http://xtronics.com/kits/rcode.htm - good site for basic info on components BTW

http://www.bcdxc.org/resistor_color_codes.htm

http://www.trinitysoundcompany.com/grounding.html

http://ampage.org/htac/chassis.html

Suppliers of wire, enclosures and stuff.

www.farnell.com , www.maplin.co.uk, www.hificollective.co.uk , http://www.airlinktransformers.com/toroids.htm ,

Etc etc etc etc.

 

[Nuuk]

FULL KITS should be available for the first timer. I mean chassis, toriod, caps and heat sinks. If you want to cut something out? Cut out the easy-to-get stuff, resistors, run-o-the-mill caps, etc. It doesn't do a builder any good if he can't figure out a chassis, heatsink etc, but has the board plugged.

1 That would make the kit more expensive than the same thing bought ready-built. The cost of shipping items like cases and transformers would be ridiculous, especially for international buyers. Supplying kits in the sort of numbers that they would sell the kits, would mean that the cost of the case would be astonomical!

2 People build their own hi-fi because they want something different and/or individual. I agree that the case/chassis is the stumbling block for many builders. But there are cases available and isn't it peferable to be able to choose the style of case, rather than have to go with one that is included in the kit?

I think what would be useful is letting newbie's know what they need to know and where to find the information.

It is there already! All you need to do is search! The Internet is wonderful but one negative aspect is that it has brought about, for some people, the idea that the information should be available without any effort on their part! You wouldn't believe the number of questions I get to DD that are already answered on the site! Sure, life would be much easier if somebody held our hands and spoon fed us. But what would that achieve?

 

[quickshift]

It is there already! All you need to do is search! The Internet is wonderful but one negative aspect is that it has brought about, for some people, the idea that the information should be available without any effort on their part! You wouldn't believe the number of questions I get to DD that are already answered on the site! Sure, life would be much easier if somebody held our hands and spoon fed us. But what would that achieve?

I know it's already there, I have looked and found what I need to know for the most part. I'm not sure it's a case of everyone who asks questions not wanting search. I think part of the issue may be that people don't know what to search for, hence the suggestion for pointers or a library of links to basic information.

Some people need spoon feeding to start off with, some people have natural aptitude and can work out for themselves what they need to research.

I think what it would achieve is a bit of a helpful shove up the learning curve for those people who really do need walking through the early stages of preparing to build a kit.

I understand where you are coming from as it goes, I used to do IT support and training amongst other things and have got frustrated with being asked the same questions by the same people time and time again on occasion.

I'm not guilty of asking you a question because they are answered on your site but I could understand how a less technically minded person, particularly someone who is afraid to experiment, may need to check what they are doing.

I don't think it's a giant leap in terms of using ones own initiative to pop “read resistor code” into Yahoo but some people obviously do or nobody would have any problems identifying resistors.

Cheers for creating DD BTW, it has been a very useful reference site

 

[rabbitz]

Some people need spoon feeding to start off with, some people have natural aptitude and can work out for themselves what they need to research.

That's the reason for starting with small non mains kits first.... training wheels. I'm sorry, but if a person doesn't have any natural aptitude, then they shouldn't be doing amps or any other mains stuff as they can be killed by lethal voltages. You have to have fair skills when you start diagnosing any problems and probing inside a case without knowing what the bitey bits are is asking for trouble.

I'd just like to see the new builder take a sensible approach by using a crawl... walk.... run thing. It's surprising how quick you learn when you take that approach, then there is no need to be spoon fed. Those that are spoon fed, learn nothing and continually look for the spoon.

 

[Variac]

One problem that has fooled the mods also, is that anyone can easily set up a website to facilitate orders. These generally look quite good, and thus appear to be a substantial commercial enterprise, when they are in fact just set up to facilitate a group buy.

 

[javven]

I disagree with the expense issue. No one says the chassis has to be substantial.

1 bit of plywood.
2 bits wooden sides
1 bit semi-fancy wood front panel
1 bit inexpensive (phenolic resin?) back panel
1 bit expanded steel grate
3-5 bits reinforcement 2cmx2cm square stock

All you'd need is some glue and a few fasteners. Painted and attractively finished it could be quite a pretty piece. I bet with some work you could offer this at about, oh an additional $40 US?

The toriod, etc plus caps WOULD certainly put you in 'cheap' power amp territory if you included it all. Yes, one must also make a profit. The nice thing is you don't have to finish or even buy it all at once, helping the poor-guy DIY-er like me.

If you aren't going to bundle stuff, at least provide some plans based on local-hardware-store material dimensions. Require no sawing operations be performed by the end user. Make it easier for the apartmet / dorm-room living folks to make the product.

 

[Nuuk]

I bet with some work you could offer this at about, oh an additional $40 US?

40$! I doubt that, even if you used labour from China! And what about knobs, sockets, mains connector, grommets, fasteners, finish?

You are talking in quantities of hundreds at the most. That would make it either impractical to ship from somewhere like China, or uneconomical to set up machinery to make it in Europe or the US.

And if the case doesn't look 100% (and keep in mind that taste is a personal thing), you may even put off buyers so you would have to make it an option, reducig the numbers still further.

BUT don't despair all you apartment dwellers! There could be some good news coming soon (via a well-known DIY hi-fi site)!